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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Debate and discussion on the internet.
#27032011 - 11/10/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think it's a very poor substitute for the real life thing. It misses out on a lot of nuances and the ability to quickly reformulate and concede or agree to opinions.
I think it's often pretty unhealthy and I see this all over the internet. You are just getting a snap shot of something someone said, like a string of quotients. It makes it easier to jjust tunnel vision on certain points.
Maybe the internet is the harbinger of the apocalypse. 
Or maybe the abundance of information and opinions will somehow be our salvation. 
Or it could be just one more artifact in the string of loosely arranged failures we call history. 
Get your inner prophet out if you feel like it. And tell me, what would you pick?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Hikeadellic
Fungi Fan



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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#27032016 - 11/10/20 05:24 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have been "living" in front of a computer screen for at least 8 hours a day since August. It is god awful. Internet is only good for stuff like wikipedia and learning how to grow mushrooms
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
#27032037 - 11/10/20 05:42 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I guess we have progressed from cave painting to emojis with a bit of human sacrifice in the middle, but I do not know if we are looping or not. I guess if the human sacrifices get going again, it's done.
Toss another virgin into cyberspace - next!
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_ π§ _
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Hikeadellic]
#27032112 - 11/10/20 06:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hikeadellic said: I have been "living" in front of a computer screen for at least 8 hours a day since August. It is god awful. Internet is only good for stuff like wikipedia and learning how to grow mushrooms
Guess the best thing to do is detach yourself from the whole mess unless you've got the energy to get out there and really be productive. I know I don't. That's a load off my mind in a way because I know I don't have to stress about the social or personal pressure to be productive.
I think it can screw with you too if you put too much energy into something that's not really coming from the heart. Gotta keep the balance.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Hikeadellic
Fungi Fan



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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#27032267 - 11/10/20 08:19 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I try to be productive, I enjoy being productive. But I just want to get away from the 24/7 eyes on screen. I love socializing and interacting with people, being apart of different communities and friend groups. Smile at other people walking down the street. Its hard to do so now. I try to when I can but I'm reaching much less people.
I'm thinking about going somewhere far away from "here" just to gain some fucking sanity
I need to have a life based around the natural inter-person connection reward systems that evolution has created over thousands of years more then a life based around computer programs that stimulate these reward systems to generate profit.
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teknix
πβπ
’ππ
π°π‘ πΌπ⨻



Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Hikeadellic]
#27032275 - 11/10/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Perhaps, but real debates are prepared in advance, points, counterpoints, rebuttals are all anticipated, to the best of their ability. A random argument about a random topic on the street in going to be more superficial than a debate on a specific topic consisting of experts that prepared in advance.
Experts are generally going to know the arguments against their position before it even occurs.
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Hikeadellic
Fungi Fan



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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: teknix]
#27032371 - 11/10/20 09:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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You are right! The internet does not do justice to conversation. In person conversations between interesting people are genuine and real.
The news should not be a 24/7 cycle that it is now. Years ago news only happened on TV one or two hours a day. Modern news reduces complicated topics to 10 second soundbites. This is why we as a society need in person conversation. This is also why Joe Rogan makes millions of dollars just having in depth conversations with people
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: teknix] 1
#27032594 - 11/11/20 12:53 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: Perhaps, but real debates are prepared in advance, points, counterpoints, rebuttals are all anticipated, to the best of their ability. A random argument about a random topic on the street in going to be more superficial than a debate on a specific topic consisting of experts that prepared in advance.
Experts are generally going to know the arguments against their position before it even occurs.
That's one area where you and I might disagree. I think a series of cordial debates and discussion between two friend had over a day spent relaxing can get much deeper into truth than anything pre rehearsed. The "real" kind of debate you mention is often mostly for the audience, or for practicing to proselytise to one. Therefore it is the more superficial of the two. I think two good friends of good temperement can dig far deeper into a matter given time and willingness. I would certainly wish that it happened more often without people getting defensive about beliefs or aggressive with them.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#27032865 - 11/11/20 06:43 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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the debate/discussion function of the internet depends on how the user decides to utilize the tool. if someone uses it to sharpen their mind, then their mind will be sharpened. if itβs used for the sake of being purposefully argumentative and to ruffle feathers, then that person will probably end up ruffling their own feathers. if itβs used to seek out meaningful intellectual connections that may be are not being fulfilled in real life, then those virtual connections can be found to stimualte an intellectual mind as it desires.
how many people do you have in your real life social circle that you can have a deep and meaningful spiritual or intellectual or philosophical conversation with?
the internet allows for access to billions of people, and allows for the opportunity to engage with minds that someone might not have had the chance of sharing a thought or engaging with. meaningful connections can be made if thatβs how the user makes use of the tool. i donβt believe a vast majority of the billions of people on the internet use it in this way. for the most part, the internet is probably using them! like most technology, it can potentially cut both ways.
all humans possess an internet connection to each other, without having a screen in front of them, but most seem to have forgotten how to access this universal connection, so the internet as you know it has become a surrogate.
i imagine for young people under 30 or so, the internet is different because it has saturatured their entire existance, where those that are older have the wonderful experience of remembering what the world was like before the internet saturatured everything, for better and for worse.
i wonder what ideas would have never happened if the internet didnβt exist?
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
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The reports seem to indicate that high doses of social media will have negative tendencies. Teenage girl suicide rates soared at the same time of social media introduction. They were at the front lines I guess.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
#27034099 - 11/11/20 07:46 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Most importantly, real life conversations allows one to physically slap the other conversee when he says something retarded.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#27034333 - 11/11/20 11:17 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think debates and discussion online are respectable, informative and more diligent and substantive than in person debates at times.
Sometimes complex topics require rehashing of words and simplifications in laymen terms.
Often in debates people make shifty points and use weasel words to dodge questions and deflect ideas without sudly substantive responses. Online there's a history of the debate and there's no escaping your own words.
In my view, online debates have a higher capability for responsibility.
Sometimes we need more time to make a stronger response, because often there is so much information it's hard to catch everything, and if someone is throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall, it's important to respond to all of their points so that none of their shit sticks.
Your words count more online imo.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
#27046692 - 11/19/20 02:15 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: I think it's a very poor substitute for the real life thing. It misses out on a lot of nuances and the ability to quickly reformulate and concede or agree to opinions....
. Probably depends on both who one's friends are, their motivations, on the communication skills of all involved, and on whether the individuals are actually capable of being in touch with their own feelings and open to learning from others, if such qualities are valued by the participants. . Given all these variables, (which seem to me of primary importance and to vary greatly among people) I wouldn't personally venture to generalize about the media used whether it be: net, person to person, or phone, or email, or mail.
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
#27046720 - 11/19/20 03:10 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Debate in general is USUALLY futile.
Not always. Most often it is, though.
--------------------
  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of oneβs ignorance." β Confucius
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: laughingdog]
#27047800 - 11/19/20 05:56 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
Grapefruit said: I think it's a very poor substitute for the real life thing. It misses out on a lot of nuances and the ability to quickly reformulate and concede or agree to opinions....
. Probably depends on both who one's friends are, their motivations, on the communication skills of all involved, and on whether the individuals are actually capable of being in touch with their own feelings and open to learning from others, [and whether] such qualities are valued by the participants. . Given all these variables, (which seem to me of primary importance and to vary greatly among people) I wouldn't personally venture to generalize about the media used whether it be: net, person to person, or phone, or email, or mail.
. However the internet "attracts" those who are not as capable of being in touch with their own feelings and being generally open and revealing. So these factors support your view Grapefruit, as regards intimacy, that the net will be found to be more about superficial content, argument, and simply the desire for attention and praise.
. I suppose if we understand its limitations, disappointment will be less.
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: laughingdog]
#27048245 - 11/20/20 12:37 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
Grapefruit said: I think it's a very poor substitute for the real life thing. It misses out on a lot of nuances and the ability to quickly reformulate and concede or agree to opinions....
. Probably depends on both who one's friends are, their motivations, on the communication skills of all involved, and on whether the individuals are actually capable of being in touch with their own feelings and open to learning from others, [and whether] such qualities are valued by the participants. . Given all these variables, (which seem to me of primary importance and to vary greatly among people) I wouldn't personally venture to generalize about the media used whether it be: net, person to person, or phone, or email, or mail.
. However the internet "attracts" those who are not as capable of being in touch with their own feelings and being generally open and revealing. So these factors support your view Grapefruit, as regards intimacy, that the net will be found to be more about superficial content, argument, and simply the desire for attention and praise.
. I suppose if we understand its limitations, disappointment will be less.
Well said and agreed.
The other problem is both parties actually agreeing on limitations without feeling like doing so concedes their argument/point, lol.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of oneβs ignorance." β Confucius
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27048371 - 11/20/20 05:14 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I like that you can log in and log out
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Yellow Pants


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: redgreenvines]
#27048502 - 11/20/20 08:03 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I heard itβs a good idea to steel man the others pitch in order to take the most pleasure when you bring it down. And also to not misrepresent them so the idea is to overcompensate. Iβm not favor of steel manning or straw manning. An mutually agreeable accurate representation of the other is sufficient.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: redgreenvines]
#27048856 - 11/20/20 12:09 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: I like that you can log in and log out
Yeah I kinda think debate doesn't work at all on the internet. Better to just say your piece and then go get lost.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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lostintimenspc
Stranger
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
#27049502 - 11/20/20 07:48 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't think it works, but socially speaking Shroomery is a good place for me, just seeing what other intellectuals through to the everyday stoners think and feel.
If there was a Shroomery convention we'd have some seriously interesting people rock up.
A good rule of thumb is to just be positive on the internet. Anything negative is just going to result in meaningless content.
-------------------- LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life' Your life, your call.
Edited by lostintimenspc (11/20/20 08:37 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
#27049528 - 11/20/20 08:05 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: I think it's a very poor substitute for the real life thing. It misses out on a lot of nuances and the ability to quickly reformulate and concede or agree to opinions.
I think it's often pretty unhealthy and I see this all over the internet. You are just getting a snap shot of something someone said, like a string of quotients. It makes it easier to jjust tunnel vision on certain points.
Is the real life debate and discussion in all ways better? Text based arguments have the potential advantage of time to consider one's response. Whether one takes advantage of it varies. And people aren't generally quick in person to concede or agree to opinions. 
I think it's good when a person argues in good faith. And rather good when all parties are doing so. I guess the real life thing contains more poignantly the reality that the interpersonal relationships are more important than winning or loosing.
But it all seems par for the course. The more things change the more things stay the same. Otherwise said, give a human something to fuck up and it'll get fucked up.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youβre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." βAyishat Akanbi
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Rahz]
#27049773 - 11/21/20 01:23 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I genuinely feel most people are more interested in being right than learning something new/growing themselves/their awareness.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of oneβs ignorance." β Confucius
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27049891 - 11/21/20 05:39 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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don't let that take away your enthusiasm.
even people that are the same as you are unsynchronized (unless stoned together perhaps) so they seem to be on separate planets when they are just a few minutes away from where you were a minute before.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman] 1
#27049951 - 11/21/20 07:01 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: I genuinely feel most people are more interested in being right than learning something new/growing themselves/their awareness.
Are you open to being wrong about that? 
I don't disagree, but just because there seems to be more interest in the one thing doesn't mean there's no interest in the other thing. I've found that IRL it's better to be mindful that people are easily made defensive, and people are often more offensive than they intend to be. In that context the use of debate is limited. An opinion expressed is enough to meet someone half the way and one cannot make up the difference on their own. Allowing for difference of opinion beyond that expression is probably wise. But if there is some need to get through and convince someone of something, it best to be very mindful of that defensive nature and focus on how ones words will be perceived, rather than simply what one's intention is. Good intentions are often found to be offensive.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youβre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." βAyishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Rahz]
#27049980 - 11/21/20 07:36 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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exactly,
a natural reflex is to evaluate what is new/different/changed defensively. it is unnatural to relax integratively in the face of flux or anything new.
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Rahz]
#27051434 - 11/22/20 01:49 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: I genuinely feel most people are more interested in being right than learning something new/growing themselves/their awareness.
Are you open to being wrong about that? 
I don't disagree, but just because there seems to be more interest in the one thing doesn't mean there's no interest in the other thing. I've found that IRL it's better to be mindful that people are easily made defensive, and people are often more offensive than they intend to be. In that context the use of debate is limited. An opinion expressed is enough to meet someone half the way and one cannot make up the difference on their own. Allowing for difference of opinion beyond that expression is probably wise. But if there is some need to get through and convince someone of something, it best to be very mindful of that defensive nature and focus on how ones words will be perceived, rather than simply what one's intention is. Good intentions are often found to be offensive.
Yes, only if others are equally ready to prove that statement incorrect!
Technically all opinions are limiting because you can only express and condense something down to a statement so much, before it loses true meaning. The map is not the treasure.
I still stand by my position more often than not most people will stop reasoning and start pretending their irrationality is valid even when they're objectively incorrect.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of oneβs ignorance." β Confucius
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,006
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: redgreenvines]
#27051435 - 11/22/20 01:51 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: don't let that take away your enthusiasm.
even people that are the same as you are unsynchronized (unless stoned together perhaps) so they seem to be on separate planets when they are just a few minutes away from where you were a minute before.
I'm a career psychologist, I talk to people all day and work through behavior patterns. I truly feel the average person doesn't understand how fucked the average person is, then glosses over that lack of information with naive optimism and platitudes, lol. I'm not saying you're doing this, I'm saying it's very easy to assume the best and rationalize away the worst when convenient.
People are fucked up, lie by nature when they're caught, and will double down over the most low-level useless shit while avoiding basic personal growth exercises that cost them like a quarter of that same effort.
Those who refuse to work on themselves have no qualms about avoiding consistency/embracing contradiction and irrationality in other areas, the least of which is debate. After a certain point other people are displaying, via their language and behavior, precisely where the line in the sand is.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of oneβs ignorance." β Confucius
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27051526 - 11/22/20 05:46 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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how do you manage your feelings of impatience with the pervasive ignorance of others, and the shadows of ignorance in one's own world view.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27051748 - 11/22/20 08:54 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: don't let that take away your enthusiasm.
even people that are the same as you are unsynchronized (unless stoned together perhaps) so they seem to be on separate planets when they are just a few minutes away from where you were a minute before.
I'm a career psychologist, I talk to people all day and work through behavior patterns. I truly feel the average person doesn't understand how fucked the average person is, then glosses over that lack of information with naive optimism and platitudes, lol. I'm not saying you're doing this, I'm saying it's very easy to assume the best and rationalize away the worst when convenient.
People are fucked up, lie by nature when they're caught, and will double down over the most low-level useless shit while avoiding basic personal growth exercises that cost them like a quarter of that same effort.
Those who refuse to work on themselves have no qualms about avoiding consistency/embracing contradiction and irrationality in other areas, the least of which is debate. After a certain point other people are displaying, via their language and behavior, precisely where the line in the sand is.
I bet you get a lot of people trying to snowball you. But don't you have people who know they're fucked up and want to get better? Occasional breakthroughs?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youβre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." βAyishat Akanbi
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,664
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Rahz]
#27051957 - 11/22/20 10:57 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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you have to try you have to make an effort and do self authoring meditation can play a big part a little yoga not doing drugs adhering to or getting to goal with the rules
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Rahz]
#27056494 - 11/25/20 01:11 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: how do you manage your feelings of impatience with the pervasive ignorance of others, and the shadows of ignorance in one's own world view.
By charging a metric fuck ton to listen to people complain LOL.
For real. It's all rational thinking. I get clients to identify, slowly, where their blocks are subconsciously. I find working from subconscious level "down" to the conscious mind has incredible impact on success rates. I'm not an addiction counselor and I don't see people with chemical issues that's not my lane and I don't ever, EVER pretend it is. Someone comes in and I find out they lied and are on drugs I just refer them out to local clinics.
Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: don't let that take away your enthusiasm.
even people that are the same as you are unsynchronized (unless stoned together perhaps) so they seem to be on separate planets when they are just a few minutes away from where you were a minute before.
I'm a career psychologist, I talk to people all day and work through behavior patterns. I truly feel the average person doesn't understand how fucked the average person is, then glosses over that lack of information with naive optimism and platitudes, lol. I'm not saying you're doing this, I'm saying it's very easy to assume the best and rationalize away the worst when convenient.
People are fucked up, lie by nature when they're caught, and will double down over the most low-level useless shit while avoiding basic personal growth exercises that cost them like a quarter of that same effort.
Those who refuse to work on themselves have no qualms about avoiding consistency/embracing contradiction and irrationality in other areas, the least of which is debate. After a certain point other people are displaying, via their language and behavior, precisely where the line in the sand is.
I bet you get a lot of people trying to snowball you. But don't you have people who know they're fucked up and want to get better? Occasional breakthroughs?
Yes of course. I'd say 1 in 3 are conscious and willing and ACCEPT what needs to be done. These people make my job easy I just give them the paint-by-numbers strategy and it clicks. The barrier is those that don't accept and haven't accepted that they are making some sort of decision on some level even if they don't understand how that works. Again, subconscious coaching. The success rate with working people from this level is higher than not, especially with that "I got it!" 33% I just mentioned.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of oneβs ignorance." β Confucius
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Leonardjr88
Stranger


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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27071368 - 12/04/20 08:03 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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What I've noticed is a dis-evoloution of consciousness. Whereas the machine is offered as a reliable resource to not "investigate" to not be "introspective". So what we're left with is a collective of massive amounts of people interacting like mindless drones. Programed by the machine they use instead of the "human" programming the machine. Do what the future beholds is culture of people who dont look each other in the eyes devoid of empathy, unable to have interpersonal relationships without a program manipulator. We need to have a set standard simply based upon morality that we do not use our phones in public places. That could be a great solution. i could go on and on and on...
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman] 2
#27071601 - 12/04/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I'm not an addiction counselor and I don't see people with chemical issues that's not my lane and I don't ever, EVER pretend it is. Someone comes in and I find out they lied and are on drugs I just refer them out to local clinics.
How does that play for you when some of the most woke cunts in history have been drug addicts?
Quote:
I genuinely feel most people are more interested in being right than learning something new/growing themselves/their awareness.
I don't go out for that, I just try to express my thoughts and feelings as honestly as possible, if I pick up something new along the way it's a bonus. But I'd place honesty and being true to yourself first.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
#27072811 - 12/05/20 12:42 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said:
How does that play for you when some of the most woke cunts in history have been drug addicts?
I've yet to personally meet a booze, coke, meth, or speed head that has anything insightful to say about the nature of reality, existence, the control system we live in, etc. This isn't a judgement thing maybe it's just my batting average with those people that come to me.
Psych people? Yes, of course. Those people aren't addicts however. Can you give me an example of woke AF people that are hooked on non-psych compounds?
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Grapefruit said:
I don't go out for that, I just try to express my thoughts and feelings as honestly as possible, if I pick up something new along the way it's a bonus. But I'd place honesty and being true to yourself first.
I'm inclined to agree my friend. That's the difference from person to person in my honest professional experience. There's a kernel of will there that stands amongst the chaos and noise. That signal to noise ratio will vary from person to person, however.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of oneβs ignorance." β Confucius
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27072914 - 12/05/20 04:05 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Some of this might be pretty obscure to you and some are a guess but... Lou Reed. Ray Charles. Charlie Parker Trent Reznor. The boys from FIDLAR. Nearly all the rappers in the UK scene at least are pretty druggie, roots manuva is IMO probably the most transcendental shit there and he smokes crack when things get rough. Um... Countless writers who have had tobacco or alcohol addictions. Rimbaud. Coleridge taylor.
Mick Jagger? PKD? Freud? Amy Winehouse?
I feel like the list is pretty large really but I can't count em all...
I guess it probably makes sense that most of the people you meet aren't in that sphere but maybe you should be mindful about giving them a chance is all I'm saying.
I was just listening to an alan watts talk (alcoholic) where he was saying that in chinese philosophy they have a concept they call renxing meaning waywardness, this is considered an important balance to ren, meaning heart and I guess they consider the totality of that to be important to growth. According to Watts they thought someone being too much of a "goodie goodie" was not truly virtuous. Although examples like Tolstoy, Dickens, or Emerson might be just that IMO. But then you also have your Dostoevskys, Shakespeares, Blakes.
Edited by Grapefruit (12/05/20 04:27 AM)
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
#27072948 - 12/05/20 05:19 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: Some of this might be pretty obscure to you and some are a guess but... Lou Reed. Ray Charles. Charlie Parker Trent Reznor. The boys from FIDLAR. Nearly all the rappers in the UK scene at least are pretty druggie, roots manuva is IMO probably the most transcendental shit there and he smokes crack when things get rough. Um... Countless writers who have had tobacco or alcohol addictions. Rimbaud. Coleridge taylor.
Mick Jagger? PKD? Freud? Amy Winehouse?
I feel like the list is pretty large really but I can't count em all...
I guess it probably makes sense that most of the people you meet aren't in that sphere but maybe you should be mindful about giving them a chance is all I'm saying.
I was just listening to an alan watts talk (alcoholic) where he was saying that in chinese philosophy they have a concept they call renxing meaning waywardness, this is considered an important balance to ren, meaning heart and I guess they consider the totality of that to be important to growth. According to Watts they thought someone being too much of a "goodie goodie" was not truly virtuous. Although examples like Tolstoy, Dickens, or Emerson might be just that IMO. But then you also have your Dostoevskys, Shakespeares, Blakes.
Ah ok yes see we were indeed talking about two different groups, I wasn't counting celebs. I don't discount people at all even though sometimes I use language that may sound judgmental or elitist. I see the person separate from what keeps them stuck. I don't believe people are deterministic machines, and I also don't ever discount that after a specific point medication is indeed valid and needed.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of oneβs ignorance." β Confucius
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Malkuthian
Fetus



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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27072962 - 12/05/20 05:35 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Debate on the internet does not work because almost no one is searching for debate but rather just to proclaim that their already chosen perspective is the correct one and that all who not agree are wrong & probably retarded. And then we call it "debate" and "discussion" and pretend we are engaging in something intellectual when in fact we are just morons with signs shouting "We are right you are wrong", "I know best".
Herd mentality becomes weird online.
When people actually have a genuine interest in understanding other perspectives, then and only then, actual discussion can occur. And that fucking never happens.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27072975 - 12/05/20 05:56 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well that seems reasonable, I guess like you say you did just come off a little flippant and harsh to me at first.
Are you looking to try to make the most impact to the collective, or are you content just to help provide someone with a little bit of relief from suffering if you can? Those two outcomes would be acheived through a markedly different approach seems to me, although surely there's a point in the middle. I don't know how I'd approach that in your shoes.
I'm also interested on your perspective as to how firmly you believe in therapy as being a positive approach to individual and collective health? You question your work much?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
#27072985 - 12/05/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Everything literally depends upon the individual asking for help. If we learn anything from tripping it's that separation is the illusion. That has had a massive, massive impact on how I approach my work. The best way I can describe it is that you can't really impact the collective unless you can do so with each individual interaction, since that's ultimately all you have the most influence on anyway. That influence can then become a group or a following of course, but ultimately it's one on one.
In reality, it's you vs you. All of your negative opinions, outlooks, etc., are a reflection of something going on in your consciousness (subconscious, to be exact). You only have access to you. Everything you resist persists, including all preconceived notions about the effectiveness of therapy, and how much emotional investment you put into one belief or another. The placebo effect is very real and often thrown out, when in reality, I'd argue it's the foundation for our integration/interpretation of "reality", as we experience it.
I wouldn't be where I am if I didn't have a bigger picture understanding of human behavior, how it relates, what's superfluous, and what ultimately causes massive large scale synchronicity. I don't say that as a fuck you, either; I say that as someone that has put thousands of hours into study, experiment, and actual in-field application and seen patterns that are undeniable, that, surprise surprise, people love to deny, lol. This also involves knowing what patients will indeed be a lost cause or waste of resources better spent elsewhere, which sounds harsh, but reality goes both ways. Too much empathy - or more accurately, misapplied empathy - as a default causes many, many people to miss things right in front of them that are causing problems they insist they don't deserve.
What I just said also sounds blunt but one of those unfriendly non-PC patterns is emotionally stunting due to some sort of trauma, and it doesn't have to be insane shit like people assume. You can do trauma to yourself with drugs and self-abuse via relationships and not realize what kind of blocks you're creating/fucking yourself up with. Responsibility gets inverted as a defense mechanism and this requires an empathic approach because you can't navigate defensiveness. Ultimately the saying "love is all you need" is correct, but knowing when that person has an issue that is no longer within the realm of therapy, as you said, and when and more importantly WHOM to hand them off to, is crucial.
There are occasions when you can be as optimistic, open, and flexible and someone is just absolutely insistent on being difficult or impossible to help. No amount of naive wokeness love and light causes that to cease to be a reality. The key is not wasting finite resources, like your time, on people like that. That comes with experience and I've noticed it's also aided not only the quality of my clients in my psych work, but also in my fitness business as well.
It's cuts deep and goes both ways and many, many people refuse to accept that reality.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of oneβs ignorance." β Confucius
Edited by Loaded Shaman (12/05/20 06:23 AM)
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27072988 - 12/05/20 06:22 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Buisness is buisness I guess. 
Fuck me if it wouldn't be nice if everyone could make it though.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
#27072990 - 12/05/20 06:27 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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This will sound nuts, but after tripping and synchronicity, I truly feel my "purpose" is best served as a "mirror" to help people see themselves. My intelligence is only as useful as it can be made to be understood useful to you. The less I resist higher impulses that feel intuitively correct, and have no rational reason to resist them, the more serendipity appears in my reality.
If I can inspire and pass on any of that to anyone in any way that makes any sense - for them - then I've done "my job" and "business" is good!
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of oneβs ignorance." β Confucius
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27073004 - 12/05/20 06:44 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Not nuts, just sounds like you were seeing things a little clearer than usual with a shot to the brain. Way I see it we only think of that stuff as nuts after the fact because we lost a little faith and receptivity, it's difficult with a mortal mind to comprehend the powers of the gods. Only those who've dropped that mind entirely truly live within the winds. Which is probably to speak too much of what should rightfully be our most natural state.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



Registered: 03/02/15
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
#27073005 - 12/05/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'd say you hold a bit more lucidity than you may be giving yourself credit for, via that last statement, my friend .
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of oneβs ignorance." β Confucius
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#27073016 - 12/05/20 07:02 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's a long story, but best believe me when I say I'm crazier than the craziest person you ever met. I just have an unknown to science psychological disorder is all. Banking on god saving me in the next life.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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OutsideOfMyMind
LSD Self Administrative Director



Registered: 10/05/20
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Re: Debate and discussion on the internet. [Re: Grapefruit]
#27074474 - 12/06/20 01:31 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Text-based communication is horrible. You can't sense the mood or tone of the other person. You don't see their nonverbal communication either. Reddit is the worst place to try to debate. Everybody takes everything so offensively because nobody has any tone to base anything on. This is why so many arguments happen online. I think everyone would benefit from taking a couple communications classes at a junior college. Interpersonal communication and argumentation and persuasion.
I posted a thread in this sub about a debate between physicists and a philosopher about whether or not we live in a simulated universe. That is probably one of the best debates I've ever seen. Nobody is getting angry at each other, nobody is getting emotional, everyone is stating their claim, backing it up with grounds and warrants, and presenting their arguments in a mature manner. Awesome debate.
One of the funnest things I did in junior college was going to a debate championship when I was taking argumentation and persuasion. It was an extra credit assignment. I watched two different teams debate with each other on a topic. I totally forgot what it was about but it really taught me how to State my claim and gather my grounds and warrants and state my argument. Those are the three steps in arguing and persuading people in a debate or otherwise.
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