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OfflineBlue Helix
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Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow)
    #27030879 - 11/09/20 10:44 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I am so happy to hear the news!  I posted on another thread that my goal BE for a cubensis grow was 100% to 150%.  Almost instantly a very highly trusted moderator set me straight and said that most growers get that BE the first flush and that half of all growers today get 200% BE.    In good faith, I assumed that this moderator said this to help inform me that I'm super rusty (a bad grower I guess, not that I care much).

Can the 50% of growers that have pulled 200% BE and took actual measurements with their scale, let me know your thread?  I want to see what improvements growing is allowing such a large percentage of high-BE grows.  I have some new popular things written down to try, but I'm looking for patterns, not one shot grows, since there is a lot of ideas out there.

Thank you, guys!


Edited by Blue Helix (11/09/20 11:05 PM)


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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27030911 - 11/09/20 11:29 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:whathesaid:

:begger:


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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: ModularMind]
    #27030940 - 11/10/20 12:27 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Are you cloning or starting from spores?


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: Holybullshit]
    #27030954 - 11/10/20 12:43 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Holybullshit said:
Are you cloning or starting from spores?




Unfortunately, I am doing a multi-spore (MS) grow, and I am told that clone grows are better.  But my understanding is that even with MS grows, that people are pulling 150 to 200% all the time nowadays, which sounds pretty amazing.

I really don't know what my BE is for cubes (didn't really bother with it before since the MS flushes were very dense), but I imagine that the right clone will outperform a MS grow at least some.  The improvement factor to actual yield, though, I couldn't find.  I just kept seeing first flush pictures which is really only half the story.


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OfflineInthepit
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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: ModularMind]
    #27031044 - 11/10/20 04:10 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ModularMind said:
:whathesaid:
:begger:




                                   

And I need to understand how to get BE.
Like: from this thread

First flush wet = Around 300g ea box...4 boxes from LAGM 2020
Oats = 1 Kg (2 qrts), 500g Coir

Do you include 500g coir?

"Your BE = (wet fruit weight)/(dry in substrate) * 100 ="

Grain is usually 50% dry,
The oats I have seem really dry to me, plus diatomaceous earth added

grain 2 quarts dry = 1000g x .50  = 500g

Total sub dry = 500g grain + 500g coir = 1000g substrate

So... wet fruit 1200g / sub 1000g x 100 = 120%  correct?

        :popcorn:


--------------------
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Edited by Inthepit (11/10/20 07:32 AM)


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: Inthepit] * 1
    #27031068 - 11/10/20 05:00 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)



Typical PESA tub

4x spawn jars originally 220g dry oats each
880g

1x650 coir brick

1530g total dry ingredients

First flush yield is usually 6-7oz dry lets low-ball and use 90% water content for cubes

6*26=168*10=
1680wet/1530dry ingredients=

Over 100% BE first flush. Usually they go three flushes easily going over 200%

Look through pastys posts i think hes done BE calculations in a few posts.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27031069 - 11/10/20 05:05 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)



3q spawn in smaller tub with 1 brick

660+650=
1310dry stuff

1851 first flush wet

141% first harvest

Pretty sure MS too


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #27031473 - 11/10/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you for everyone who responded here.  And I've gotten a few private responses.  As I knew was the case, this is well within the realm of possibility for experienced growers, and many are using clones but not all.  It is not in the realm of normal for "the majority" of average growers, and I think saying that is disingenuous. 

As for the clone question: I think MS grows perform about 75% as well from what I'm reading, which sounds about right.  In other words, it's not the holy grail of all mushrooms, but it does make a difference.  For the vast majority of people, a clone is not going to do much for you.  But for those who are getting the higher yields who do have a lot of experience, a clone can make a pretty big difference, but not for most people on this site.

So, yeah, things are just like I thought.  These higher yields are something that almost anyone can achieve with some practice, but it's not an average by any means.  Saying that is kind of like a professional baseball player showing up at a little league game and talking about how easy it is to hit them out of the park.  To him, it IS easy to knock them out of the park, not so much for the teenagers playing the game.

Anyway, I have some things to try myself.  I'd like to give the coco coir with oatmeal a try since it's worked so well for bodhisatta and his protégé and my friend jcm4620.  It sounds pretty incredible.  I really like that it uses coco coir because you can get the ingredients to the substrate on the cheap.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27031478 - 11/10/20 11:35 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:


3q spawn in smaller tub with 1 brick

660+650=
1310dry stuff

1851 first flush wet

141% first harvest

Pretty sure MS too




Incredible grow!  Fantastic density there!  And that is a MS?  My God, man, why bother with a clone then!?


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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27031483 - 11/10/20 11:41 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

200%+ club

Filthy few...
Hahahaha...
Maybe one day I'll get there...

Awesome tubs bod..
Those fruits are crammed in there tight dawg🤘🏻


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: Inthepit]
    #27031493 - 11/10/20 11:45 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Inthepit said:
Quote:

ModularMind said:
:whathesaid:
:begger:




                                   

And I need to understand how to get BE.
Like: from this thread

First flush wet = Around 300g ea box...4 boxes from LAGM 2020
Oats = 1 Kg (2 qrts), 500g Coir

Do you include 500g coir?

"Your BE = (wet fruit weight)/(dry in substrate) * 100 ="

Grain is usually 50% dry,
The oats I have seem really dry to me, plus diatomaceous earth added

grain 2 quarts dry = 1000g x .50  = 500g

Total sub dry = 500g grain + 500g coir = 1000g substrate

So... wet fruit 1200g / sub 1000g x 100 = 120%  correct?

        :popcorn:




The entire dry ingredients are usually included in a normal BE calculation.  Coco coir is a nutritive addition as you can see the mycelium attack it like food, so it definitely must be included.  One could argue I suppose that vermiculite--if you use it--doesn't have to be included as a dry ingredient, but I always do.  I don't think you should leave anything out. 

As others have pointed out, though, BE isn't really a very good measurement to cover the performance of such a wide range of substrates and species.  It was designed for a very specific purpose: it allows button mushroom farmers (i.e. non-actives) to discuss the merits of various techniques and substrate additions.  There were other better measurements that could have been used for grows like the ones here, but there is no agreement about it.  The closest we have to an agreement are first-flush pictures, which actually are probably about as good as BE given how wildly divergent the grow scene here actually is.  I mean here we don't even agree when to pick the damned mushrooms.  You got folks like Bodhisatta showing killer grows picking before the veil even stretches much less breaks in some grows but way later in others.  How can you agree what a good BE is if you cannot even agree at the harvest development stage?  You really cannot.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: Inthepit]
    #27031504 - 11/10/20 11:52 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Inthepit said:
Quote:

ModularMind said:
:whathesaid:
:begger:




                                   

And I need to understand how to get BE.
Like: from this thread

First flush wet = Around 300g ea box...4 boxes from LAGM 2020
Oats = 1 Kg (2 qrts), 500g Coir

Do you include 500g coir?

"Your BE = (wet fruit weight)/(dry in substrate) * 100 ="

Grain is usually 50% dry,
The oats I have seem really dry to me, plus diatomaceous earth added

grain 2 quarts dry = 1000g x .50  = 500g

Total sub dry = 500g grain + 500g coir = 1000g substrate

So... wet fruit 1200g / sub 1000g x 100 = 120%  correct?

        :popcorn:




About the oatmeal, you shouldn't be measuring wet anything and going backward to try to determine the dry weight.  I did that for you because you didn't have the dry weights, but it doesn't apply to oatmeal.  Oatmeal isn't even a proper grain the way it's sold in stores.  It's chipped or usually steam rolled.  You can't do what I did with oatmeal, so if that is what it was, forget everything I did.  I didn't know that was the grain we are talking about.  Grains like millet or rye are roughly 50% water when saturated, but even that is kind of hocus pocus.  If you want to find your BE, measure all the dry ingredients of your substrate first and don't go backward trying to determine the dry weight from wet at all.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: Inthepit]
    #27031514 - 11/10/20 12:00 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Inthepit said:

        :popcorn:




By the way, in my specific case, you CAN go backwards from wet to dry substrate easily.  That is because I use a specific water content of 65% in my substrate (within 1%).  I've measured everything out to hit that specific water content.  That water content applies to the old school substrate of manure with a very small additions vermiculite and grain, though.  It is not set in stone for all substrates, and on this site, the substrates are all over the map in terms of water content.


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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27031518 - 11/10/20 12:03 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

every grower should get 10 dry oz average in 2 flushes w 5 qts of spawn:shrug:


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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: tripdawg420]
    #27031546 - 11/10/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tripdawg420 said:
every grower should get 10 dry oz average in 2 flushes w 5 qts of spawn:shrug:




Hey, tripdawg420, could you do me a big favor?  I keep reading about these "quarts of spawn".  Can you possibly measure the weight of the dry grains you use for a quart of spawn?  A quart of spawn doesn't mean much to someone who doesn't use spawn like me.  As you know, I use LC direct to bulk.  I used to use spawn a long time ago, but it didn't find all the extra work of making it worth my time once I started using LC techniques.


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OfflineInthepit
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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27031739 - 11/10/20 02:24 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you Blue Helix for your reply and time!  :hatsoff:

Quote:

Blue Helix said:
Quote:

Inthepit said:


                             

First flush wet = Around 300g ea box...4 boxes from LAGM 2020

1 Kg (2 qrts) Race Horse Oats to make 4 jars spawn, triple cleansed, whole oats.

500g Coir



"Your BE = (wet fruit weight)/(dry in substrate) * 100 ="

Grain is usually 50% dry, So for my Race Horse Oats I don't need the 50% calculation?
The oats I have seem really dry to me, plus diatomaceous earth added

grain 2 quarts dry = 1000g x .50  = 500g

Total sub dry = 500g grain + 500g coir = 1000g substrate

So... wet fruit 1200g / sub 1000g x 100 = 120%  correct?

        :popcorn:




About the oatmeal, you shouldn't be measuring wet anything and going backward to try to determine the dry weight.  I did that for you because you didn't have the dry weights, but it doesn't apply to oatmeal.  Oatmeal isn't even a proper grain the way it's sold in stores.  It's chipped or usually steam rolled.  You can't do what I did with oatmeal, so if that is what it was, forget everything I did.  I didn't know that was the grain we are talking about.  Grains like millet or rye are roughly 50% water when saturated, but even that is kind of hocus pocus.  If you want to find your BE, measure all the dry ingredients of your substrate first and don't go backward trying to determine the dry weight from wet at all.




So...I'm not: using oatmeal, wet, or going backwards. So my question is
does that mean the 50% of the dry oat computation is unnecessary?

Which means:
1000g dry Race Horse Oats + 500g Coir = 1500g substrate

First flush for 4 shoeboxes wet 1200g

(1200g fruit / 1500g substrate ) x 100 =  80% BE
Sounds more like my grow for a noob!

thanks again!


Edited by Inthepit (11/10/20 02:34 PM)


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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: Inthepit]
    #27031777 - 11/10/20 02:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe average grower is disingenuous. Average of my peers. People i see here regularly that have got a good grip on growing. To say average for all range of growers I can agree is off the mark


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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27031800 - 11/10/20 02:56 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Maybe average grower is disingenuous. Average of my peers. People i see here regularly that have got a good grip on growing. To say average for all range of growers I can agree is off the mark




The “what’s wrong with my kit people” ruin it for the whole class.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: Inthepit]
    #27031814 - 11/10/20 03:11 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Inthepit said:
Thank you Blue Helix for your reply and time!  :hatsoff:

So...I'm not: using oatmeal, wet, or going backwards. So my question is
does that mean the 50% of the dry oat computation is unnecessary?

Which means:
1000g dry Race Horse Oats + 500g Coir = 1500g substrate

First flush for 4 shoeboxes wet 1200g

(1200g fruit / 1500g substrate ) x 100 =  80% BE
Sounds more like my grow for a noob!

thanks again!




That is exactly what it means, and your adjustment is right.  Sorry about the oatmeal comment.  I didn't know that you meant dry whole oats like for horses.  I use millet or rye myself.

I personally think 80% BE for a noob is pretty damned good.  I don't think I got that, but back then we used stone tools, lived in caves, and used clay pots over a fire for our sterilization.


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Re: Calling all growers that pull off 200% BE (just an average grow) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27031894 - 11/10/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I use 125 g of dry rye per pint jar.

And then 75 g of dry coir per shoebox. Two pints of spawn per shoebox gives total dry weight of 325 g.

Somewhat amazingly, my very first shoebox harvests were 350+ g wet (though I used spent grain from brewing then rather than rye). So at least one newbie managed to hit 100+% on first flush. And did it using an instant pot!

Of course repeatability has not been great, average is substantially lower once subsequent grows are taken into account.


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