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OfflineBlue Helix
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Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques)
    #27028611 - 11/08/20 01:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

So I haven't posted a cube grow in a long time, and it seems there is a lot of stuff out there being said that I do not agree with (mostly because so many people equate the first flush with the success of the entire grow from a yield perspective which can be untrue for many reasons - such as excessive grain in the substrate which does not allow the substrate to reabsorb water from the casing as well).

I don't want to start some troll war thing, so if I get troll replies to this, I will totally ignore them so don't bother.  I'm not debating the pop culture growing stuff.  I know monotubs and spawn are what most people are doing, and that is fine.  Instead, I'm going to stick with what works for me and with facts and figures.  The grow will be analyzed on the merits of total yield, not just pretty first flush pictures.  Here are the properties of the grow (and I fully expect these are not in-vogue at this point in time since I have been told so):

1)  A multi-spore grown, NOT a clone.  I like clones, but in my experience they are not worth it the trouble when using LC.  I might change my mind about this, but I don't have a clone in the first place (nor have I ever grown with them).

2) Liquid culture to bulks low-grain substrate.  NO SPAWN!  I have written so extensively about this technique of growing that I'm not going to repeat it all here.  It's a standard LC-direct-to-sterilized-bulk grow as I always do.

3) Fully-controlled  fruiting chamber, not a monotub.  My chamber has full controls of misting intervals, relative humidity, air exchange, and temperature. 

4) 2" deep substrate with 1/3" deep casing - I find both substrates and casings on the shallower side tend to yield better unless you use straw (not on a per-surface-area basis but with respect to the substrate weight which is how yield is computed).  Straw is so airy that you have to go one or two inches deeper, but this has very little straw in it (just a tiny bit from the manure bedding)

Substrate formula:

Quote:

Manure-based Substrate
Manure 44 oz
WBS 10 oz
Vermiculite 1.5 L
Water       ~100 oz
~10 pounds total




My goal is 120 to 150% biological efficiency total (total BE), which I consider a good cube grow.  As of this writing I do not know if this will be a good grow.  I might just fail, and I'll cover that here too.

Below are pictures now.  This is only 3 days after being cased with a standard vermiculite, peat moss, aragonite chip, ultra-high-purity calcium carbonate flour (as used for paint), and calcium hydroxide.  The pH was stabilized to 7.6 (I let the calibrated probe stay in the soil/water mix for 30 full minutes to accommodate the dissolution of the flour-like calcium carbonate).  The casing was super pasteurized (via a relatively short pressure cook interval - far too short to sterilize it).

Post-case day 3


In these pictures is what you want to see with casing colonization.  Cased grows yield better in later flushes and overall, which is why I'm using it, but they also can yield far worse if you don't see what I see in those pictures.  You want to see rhizomorphic features coming directly off the substrate and soon after casing.  The final casing should look like a lush spread of little filaments (like white grass) from above.  If you don't see mycelium running through the casing, the casing probably isn't helping you much (and you'd be better off with no casing if you cannot achieve proper casing colonization).  The rhizomorphic structure going through the casing is delicate, so I water it up with ultrasonic mist and only sparingly with a more aggressive hand sprayer as needed.  If the casing is starting to overlay, I hit it with water and increase the evaporation at the same time.  The structure is critical for post-first-flush per-flush yields (where cased runs shine) because it sets up the water paths to restore the substrate so it doesn't shrink excessively and not push decent later flushes.

PS - This strain (Z) pins on day 12 or 13 from casing.  The descriptive of the casing only applies to cubensis.  Pan Cyans and Cambos do not look the same way.


Edited by Blue Helix (11/08/20 02:39 PM)


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27028742 - 11/08/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:takingnotes:


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OfflineAsuraS
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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: tripdawg420]
    #27028893 - 11/08/20 04:25 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

This style of growing works quite well with some caveats, I think. It's not going
to be something you would do if you were growing at scale and it is more complicated
so you have to weigh in if it's ultimately worth it.

With that said, I've grown APE this way many times using a similar substrate (same
that I use for pan cyan). Initially, I only did it because I had extra sub, but
it ended up working well. I think we pulled 4 lbs wet from 5 trays last time.

It took FOREVER for it all to come in. The trays just kept flushing (small) over
a many month period. We ended up throwing them out to make room
for other stuff. So, I think complication and overall time to BE should be
factored in too.

I like the idea of the direct inoculation style, but just fruiting it out
from the bag in mono. I think the yield would suffer, but you lose some of
the complication.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: Asura]
    #27028952 - 11/08/20 05:09 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Asura said:
This style of growing works quite well with some caveats, I think. It's not going
to be something you would do if you were growing at scale and it is more complicated
so you have to weigh in if it's ultimately worth it.

With that said, I've grown APE this way many times using a similar substrate (same
that I use for pan cyan). Initially, I only did it because I had extra sub, but
it ended up working well. I think we pulled 4 lbs wet from 5 trays last time.

It took FOREVER for it all to come in. The trays just kept flushing (small) over
a many month period. We ended up throwing them out to make room
for other stuff. So, I think complication and overall time to BE should be
factored in too.

I like the idea of the direct inoculation style, but just fruiting it out
from the bag in mono. I think the yield would suffer, but you lose some of
the complication.





Asura, if you don't mind me asking, about how much substrate (weight) are each of those trays?  I'm trying to get a BE off that because it seems hard to believe a strain like APE could perform too well in a strict yield perspective (not that yield is all that matters of course because it is not; there are many other factors such as potency or the trip quality... if you believe in such things).  APE looks kind of "messed up" (for lack of a scientific term) to me.  It reminds me of penis envy in some ways, which is another "messed up" strain.  So if you even got 50% BE, I'd consider it a wild success for APE.  How heavy were those trays about?


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27028998 - 11/08/20 05:46 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I can't tell you exactly bc this was last year using different trays - the
disposable aluminum type. I'm thinking 3.5 to 4 quarts. BE wasn't even a
consideration. We were just amazed that it kept pumping out fruits over
such a long period. The amount of water (they want a lot) we went through
must have been insane.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: Asura]
    #27029471 - 11/09/20 02:07 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Asura said:
I can't tell you exactly bc this was last year using different trays - the
disposable aluminum type. I'm thinking 3.5 to 4 quarts. BE wasn't even a
consideration. We were just amazed that it kept pumping out fruits over
such a long period. The amount of water (they want a lot) we went through
must have been insane.




Yeah, without knowing the density of our substrate, a quart is a meaningless measurement of volume.  One cannot compute biological efficiency from it either, so it's no different than saying something like "yeah there were a lot of mushrooms" and your version of a lot might not be someone else's (I would estimate that "great yields" on this site vary by about a factor of 5 to 10)


Biological Efficiency

For the benefit of all, you need the following to compute biological efficiency

1) Wet or dry weight of mushrooms harvested (wet is strongly preferred unless the species' water content is well characterized like cubensis and growing conditions are ideal such that the fruits are not overly dry or waterlogged)

2) Wet or dry weight of substrate (dry is strongly preferred unless you have done a dehydration test).

BE = wet of mushrooms / dry of substrate * 100

Anything measured in terms of a volume (like quart or liter) is meaningless for the computation of biological efficiency because substrate densities vary enormously depending on stuff like the amount of straw.  Also measuring the inputs of any substrate by volume (with maybe the exception of vermiculite and water with tight density distributions) is a HORRIBLE idea until and unless you establish your substrate's water content and make note of those input volumes.  With any tiny change in the substrate--even just a new source for the manure--one must recharacterize the volumes all over again too since ingredients like "crushed manure" means a whole lot of different things.  Once you do, you can write down the volumes you used to get there, though, if that's your thing (although I still do not recommend it since you can never share your recipe in a meaningful way if you happen to make a good one because, again, making a substrate isn't like cooking where a cup of flour is kind of close to another no matter what flour you buy).

As an aside, most growers on this site do not have the correct water content of their substrate, period, yet expect their grows to be consistent.  Improper water content is a well-known issue as books have read say even 5% off (the recommended for manure-base is 65%) is a HUGE yield killer that would sink any grow.  That's why I cringe when I read something like "field capacity" of the substrate because it doesn't work very well for most people (maybe for an old pro like Paul Stamets it might work since he's been doing this for his whole life).  If you are mixing your substrate by feel, stop it.  Buy a $10 fish scale, do a dehydration test to hit 65% moisture, and get down the weights.

As for the casing, the ratios of ingredients and water content can vary a whole lot and still work fine (provided you make sure the pH is right with a pH probe).  Casings are not like substrates, though.  Unlike a casing, you can't just throw a half-random mix together for a substrate and except consistent performance.


The Perfect Substrate Microwave Dehydration Test

1) Take 20g of fully-mixed substrate
2) On a ceramic or glass dish spread the 20g out and microwave it for two minutes
3) Mix up the substrate little with a spoon (do not lose any).  Microwave it for 30 to 45 seconds.
4) Repeat 3 until the substrate is so dry that it almost burns (don't allow it to burn, though)
5) Reweigh the sample
6) At the ideal 65% moisture content, the bone dry sample should weigh 7.0g +/- 0.3g.  If you vary more than 0.3g off 7.0g, you need to adjust the water content of your substrate and retest: add water if you were over 7.3g and add more manure if you were under 6.7g.  Mix up the substrate really well and redo the test to see if you are in the 6.7g - 7.3g range this time.  Tip: always write down what you do so you don't need to repeat these tests next time!




Edited by Blue Helix (11/09/20 02:58 AM)


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27029569 - 11/09/20 04:58 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Helix said:
Quote:

Asura said:
This style of growing works quite well with some caveats, I think. It's not going
to be something you would do if you were growing at scale and it is more complicated
so you have to weigh in if it's ultimately worth it.

With that said, I've grown APE this way many times using a similar substrate (same
that I use for pan cyan). Initially, I only did it because I had extra sub, but
it ended up working well. I think we pulled 4 lbs wet from 5 trays last time.

It took FOREVER for it all to come in. The trays just kept flushing (small) over
a many month period. We ended up throwing them out to make room
for other stuff. So, I think complication and overall time to BE should be
factored in too.

I like the idea of the direct inoculation style, but just fruiting it out
from the bag in mono. I think the yield would suffer, but you lose some of
the complication.





Asura, if you don't mind me asking, about how much substrate (weight) are each of those trays?  I'm trying to get a BE off that because it seems hard to believe a strain like APE could perform too well in a strict yield perspective (not that yield is all that matters of course because it is not; there are many other factors such as potency or the trip quality... if you believe in such things).  APE looks kind of "messed up" (for lack of a scientific term) to me.  It reminds me of penis envy in some ways, which is another "messed up" strain.  So if you even got 50% BE, I'd consider it a wild success for APE.  How heavy were those trays about?



Its routine for people to hit >150% BE with PE and APE. >200% BE isn't uncommon for most growers these days


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27029606 - 11/09/20 05:35 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:

Its routine for people to hit >150% BE with PE and APE. >200% BE isn't uncommon for most growers these days




Most growers?  Really?  So >50% of all growers achieve that?  That's AMAZING!  But if half of all growers are pulling that yield why do I keep seeing pictures that don't seem to look over 150% (many look like poor water management issues to my eye - probably from prep-by-feel stuff).  And hardly ever am I seeing BEs given (don't know why). Maybe the higher half of growers don't take pictures or present the numeric proof of their results?  That's too bad because I'd love to see those third to fifth flushes since I don't know what is even possible.  What's your favorite >200% thread then since most growers on the site now achieve that?  I'd like to link it here for the benefit of the 50% of growers that don't achieve that kind of yield.

Anyway, that is great news!  Yeah, I was a little afraid that my goal was low (especially given I just hit 320% with the watery cambos a couple months ago).  So, I'll update my goal then to match most growers: my goal is >200% BE.  And I'll hope the clone I isolate performs even better.

Yeah, I haven't grown this species for something like 15+ years.  Back then I wasn't taking BE, and I used substrates that were high in grain, which does not perform as well in pan cyans for sure (don't know about this one but I'm betting the same applies).  Also, because I really didn't even know what I was doing, I did a bunch of pop stuff because I did everything I'd read from each grower that showed a pretty first-flush picture (it was different pop stuff back then, though, than I'm reading now since fashions change every 10 years or so).

Here is a grain-heavy-substrate, first flush of a multi-spore Ecuadorian grow of mine back in '05 a few years after I stopped moderating on Shroomery:



As one would expect, the later flushes were pretty sorry, but like I said, I don't think I did BE for that grow. 


Edited by Blue Helix (11/09/20 06:55 AM)


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27029640 - 11/09/20 06:27 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:

Its routine for people to hit >150% BE with PE and APE. >200% BE isn't uncommon for most growers these days




Can the half of you reading this that are pulling >150% BEs please share your grow log threads with your calculations?  I'd love to add them to this thread just for completeness (plus I might not even reach my goal yield if I'm in the lower half of all growers as bodhisatta pointed out).  I want others to see all the higher-yield grows which I think you should all be very proud of showing!


Edited by Blue Helix (11/09/20 06:51 AM)


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27029886 - 11/09/20 09:44 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I don't regularly hit anything like 200%, but sold on the thread :popcorn:


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: SingularFusion]
    #27029921 - 11/09/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Most people hit 100-150% with just the first flush.

If you've read my TEKs you know I use only coir and oats.
you can calculate your BE very easily

I use 650g of coir in your grow and 220g of dry oats per quart

say you use 5q of spawn to one brick 650g of coir for a a tub
that's a dry weight of ingredients of 1750 grams.

to calculate BE it's wet weight / dry weight of everything used

so you will need 1750 wet grams or 350 grams wet per quart to achieve 100% BE

my cubes dry up to be about 93% water usually
1750 wet gives me ~122.5 dry or ~24.5 dry per quart.
(it's not easy to calculate your BE from a dry weight unless you have an accurate % moisture content of your shrooms, we commonly cite 90% for mushrooms but I find that number to never match my cubensis harvests)
Getting an ounce per quart dry using a 5q to 1brick ratio is something MS grows easily do on simple oats and coir and that's a starting point.

Any time I get more than one dry ounce per quart that's 100% on the first flush. Usually its 150 first flush sometimes a little more. With 2-3 flushes the BE is well over 200%

Most people aim for an ounce per quart at minimum. Yes quarts are volumetric measurement but also most people know the dry weight of grain that makes up their myco quarts and can run a BE calculation pretty easy. Not a lot of people BE because its another one of those paul stamets retard things though.


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27030116 - 11/09/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Most people hit 100-150% with just the first flush.

If you've read my TEKs you know I use only coir and oats.
you can calculate your BE very easily

I use 650g of coir in your grow and 220g of dry oats per quart

say you use 5q of spawn to one brick 650g of coir for a a tub
that's a dry weight of ingredients of 1750 grams.

to calculate BE it's wet weight / dry weight of everything used

so you will need 1750 wet grams or 350 grams wet per quart to achieve 100% BE

my cubes dry up to be about 93% water usually
1750 wet gives me ~122.5 dry or ~24.5 dry per quart.
(it's not easy to calculate your BE from a dry weight unless you have an accurate % moisture content of your shrooms, we commonly cite 90% for mushrooms but I find that number to never match my cubensis harvests)
Getting an ounce per quart dry using a 5q to 1brick ratio is something MS grows easily do on simple oats and coir and that's a starting point.

Any time I get more than one dry ounce per quart that's 100% on the first flush. Usually its 150 first flush sometimes a little more. With 2-3 flushes the BE is well over 200%

Most people aim for an ounce per quart at minimum. Yes quarts are volumetric measurement but also most people know the dry weight of grain that makes up their myco quarts and can run a BE calculation pretty easy. Not a lot of people BE because its another one of those paul stamets retard things though.




Hey, thanks, Bodhisatta.  I guess I'm not the only one that doubts a lot of what Stamets says.  Actually, I give him credit for sparking my interest in a different life and making some great pictures, but uh, some of the stuff I've read seems pretty far off what I found to be true.  I think he believes the things to be true, but I am pretty sure they are wrong.  As for BE, though, I consider it a fairly good measurement with ONE modification.  I'd like to see the numerator be dried fruits, not fresh.  Dried fruit cannot be denied as linearly related to the amount of material converted to mushrooms proper.  Wet fruit is less so because fruits do vary in water content, even those in the same grow can if you are changing stuff around a lot.  Having said that, I know why it's wet fruits, of course.  It's wet fruits because most--not all--farms sell wet fruit (and BE more an industry standard not a hobby/pop grower one as much), but for a performance metric for people on this site, dried fruit would be better.

I'm going to let this grow be a kind of baseline.  I don't know why, but I wanted to try new things too.  I'll do a search, though.  I didn't really research this topic, and I'd like to see what is out there. 

One funny thing, though: back in the old days coir was considered a kind of casing.  I had protested it with a comparative grow with peat, but I didn't find it as a casing when I tried that.  The mycelium loved the stuff, but it was eating it.  Here was a graphic I showed back then:

   

Of course, even back then this idea of coir as a good casing was disputed.  Some folks said it was eating it and others didn't because they didn't think that was possible.  Of course, it's possible, as your grows show.

jcm4620, told me no casing is a popular.  If this grow does kind of bomb, I'll give it a try along with other stuff.  For sure I want to try clones, though.  That would be my next interest.  I like them because, honestly, I have seen some amazing clone grows.  I'm not sure if it's the clone or that the people using them tend to be the more experienced cultivators.  Hard to say, but in theory a clone should maximize grows, I'd assume.

Anyway, again thanks.


Edited by Blue Helix (11/09/20 12:34 PM)


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27030121 - 11/09/20 12:14 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

cheers for taking the time to add explanation to it Bodhi, I have seen you guys doing these numbers regularly

I obviously need to up my skills considerably

but to be fair nothing is ever around here for a third flush so I guess that cuts into my overall BE calculations a bit

but still, must do better in future

I'll leave you grown ups to talk now lol

all the best


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: SingularFusion]
    #27030143 - 11/09/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Nef said:
I don't regularly hit anything like 200%, but sold on the thread :popcorn:




Sadly, I don't know if I did either.  The problem was that I had trouble with consistency back then.  I had this issue where casing colonization would stall, and that left the casing uncolonized.  It'd happen more often when the grow was larger so the environmental control was poor (too cold usually).  I guess the mycelium would stop because it would trigger pinning too early?  That's why I like the idea of no casing, but back when I tried that, there was a yield problem for me.  Again, that could have been my substrate, though.  I can imagine a substrate so good at water management that a casing is not important.  I just never tried one like that, but I don't see why it's not possible.


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27030169 - 11/09/20 12:40 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Most people hit 100-150% with just the first flush.

Any time I get more than one dry ounce per quart that's 100% on the first flush. Usually its 150 first flush sometimes a little more. With 2-3 flushes the BE is well over 200%




Oh, man, I'm REALLY excited now!  I'm still going to keep my goal at 200% just because I'm not that experienced with the z strain (the one I picked at total random because I thought the fruits were cute).  Also, I don't have a bunch of choices since I don't have lots of cube spores (more interested in the little white species LOL).

bodhisatta, what's your favorite high-yielding cube strain?


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27030586 - 11/09/20 06:00 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Jcm knows his shit.
I honestly really have an affinity for PESA but really a good strain exists in any variety.

If you simplify a grow to coir and grain only the your BE goes up without unnecessary bulk


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27030929 - 11/09/20 11:55 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Jcm knows his shit.
I honestly really have an affinity for PESA but really a good strain exists in any variety.

If you simplify a grow to coir and grain only the your BE goes up without unnecessary bulk




I agree, jcm4620 is a good grower and, by extension, bodhisatta, you are too since what he said kind of sounded like what you do to me.  I had resisted trying it out, but with the new information of how successful it is, I changed my mind.  Now I can hardly wait to mirror those same techniques too and see how they compare to the baseline here.  Thank you for doing the excellent write up.


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OfflineBlue Helix
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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27030935 - 11/10/20 12:04 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry guys for the hijacking of the thread.  Lately this happens almost no matter what I post.  I guess standard grow techniques are so controversial (and lame) that it's important to hijack any thread that suggests they still work pretty well.  That's strange to me because you can grow these successfully many ways, including the old-school ways.

Anyway, back to this old school way: here is the casing today (day 4).  As you can see, there is considerably more rhizomorphs riding close to the surface.  They will continue to develop for at least 4 days (sometimes more).  If they exceed what I want to see and start to look like overlay, though, I'll increase the evaporation (and misting to compensate).  jcm4620 had recommended that to me when growing cambos, and last time I tried it, it worked great! The reason I like to prevent overlay is that this basic substrate was not designed to work well without a casing like the newer ones I'm told do, and if you get overlay, your casing doesn't do much.



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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27030936 - 11/10/20 12:10 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

PS - after looking a bit more at the casing and seeing how dry it was and how much it's growing, I decided to do a hand misting.  Hand misting knocks back mycelium a little, and it helps pull the casing back to saturation.  I will do it again tomorrow if it stays too aggressive for my tastes and I might also turn up the evaporation a bit too.


Edited by Blue Helix (11/10/20 12:27 AM)


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Re: Cube Z strain grow (cased and LC techniques) [Re: Blue Helix]
    #27030951 - 11/10/20 12:40 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:jesusmagic:


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