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InvisibleMateja
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #27025738 - 11/06/20 08:55 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Here is an update, snapped this pic just now.


To answer your question, I have mixed feelings about this pic :lol: left side looks doomed right side looks promising :shrug:


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: Mateja]
    #27025804 - 11/06/20 09:37 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe it’s a sterilization issue and something’s keeping the grain from being evenly heated.


That’s the only thing that I can think of unless you’re super cavalier about knocking them up.


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: A.k.a]
    #27025819 - 11/06/20 10:09 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Inoculate was the same for both (LC2) ejected from the same syringe even, 5ml into each.
Lift the outer lid with one hand stab the SHIP that's on the inner lid with the other hand and place the outer lid back on. No wiping, no alcohol, no flaming the needle, all parts are sterile/pre-sterilized. I'm leaning towards the 'improbable' cause being a single contaminant spore manifesting itself out of thin air, landing on the needle tip and making it through the rubber ship and then going 'lunar surface module' off the needle tip onto the grain. It's either that or I'll have to evoke some even more improbable scenario.. At this point I don't even know what's wrong with that one jar, doesn't look like mold, of course I can't see bacteria they're microscopic like what else could have caused this sudden 'sickness' throughout the whole jars that fast? :shrug:


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Edited by Mateja (11/06/20 10:31 PM)


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InvisibleD3_Myc
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: Mateja]
    #27025831 - 11/06/20 10:26 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

How long do you pc your grain for? I had issues at an 1.25hr and had to up it to 2 hours.


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: D3_Myc]
    #27025858 - 11/06/20 10:59 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Funny you'd ask.
I was actually up all night probing and testing temps inside the Presto and inside the rye jars and to my surprise the heat transfer onto the center of the jars was much more efficient than I had anticipated. I'm fairly confident in being able to achieve effective sterilization cycle in less than an hour on a powerful stove. The temperature inside the centre of the grain jar seems to be lagging a mere minute behind the core temperature of the pressurized boiling water/steam. I had multiple remote control meat thermometers measuring the temperature of both the steam inside the vessel and the centre of the grain jars at all times.


I was mostly interested in how fast the lag time was between ambient temp inside the vessle and the centre of the grain jar and to my amazement it was very quick.


Quote:

D3monic said:
How long do you pc your grain for? I had issues at an 1.25hr and had to up it to 2 hours.



If you're operating on a stove with a lacking output or you have vessle that's not air tight or is in other ways ineffective then you should probably measure all the dynamics in detail so that you know for sure if you need to prolong the sterilization cycle or not.

Sterilizing grain takes only 15min, but getting to 121C may take 30 or 90 minutes depending on how effective/ineffective the stove/PC is. Imma be doing some more measurements later today and I'll try to document as well.


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: Mateja]
    #27025870 - 11/06/20 11:15 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

How did you get the probes in?
What psi did you test at?
How did you get the probes into the jars without allowing steam into the jars?
If you didn't (and you may have already thunk of this) the test is invalid as the steam would be reaching places it normally can not.
Glad you did the tests though. I love this shit.


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InvisiblePsilosion

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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #27025898 - 11/06/20 11:49 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:takingnotes:


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: verum subsequentis] * 1
    #27025985 - 11/07/20 01:50 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

verum subsequentis said:
How did you get the probes in?
What psi did you test at?
How did you get the probes into the jars without allowing steam into the jars?








I threaded the probes through the 'safety vent' (after first removing the black over-pressure rubber plug and then placing it back)
I measured how effectively heat was being generated and transferred inside and outside of the jars and I checked to see if the temperatures read corresponded with the pressure indicated (it did) So yeah, 3D physical reality working just fine here in Europe and thermodynamics were exactly as advertised by human science :thumbup:
The jar lids remained sealed and steam wasn't leaking in any direction. Tho the rubber plug in the safety vent wasn't able to seal completely and contributed to somewhat prolonged pressure buildup but nothing too crazy, Ive had a lot slower pressure buildup in the past when I was using portable heat plates.


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: Mateja]
    #27026044 - 11/07/20 03:00 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

great answer. Fuckin nice work


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Invisibledfwerydfhg
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #27026660 - 11/07/20 11:38 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Death curves for a lot of stuff indicate a need for far longer than 15 min at 121 °C to get to anything you could call sterile. I don't know what usually lurks in grain, just saying 15 mins seems real short.

But great experiment, now do the one where you don't vent the air properly!


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: dfwerydfhg]
    #27026715 - 11/07/20 12:11 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

dfwerydfhg said:
Death curves for a lot of stuff indicate a need for far longer than 15 min at 121 °C to get to anything you could call sterile



:justno:

Nothing survives 15min at 121C that's just bacis microbiology as far as I'm aware, only reason why we run a PC cycle for 90min is to guarantee that temperatures of >121C has permiated throughout the entire substrate that we're sterilizing and then of course to keep that temperature for approximately 15min to ensure sterilization. It's also the reason why the sterilization cycle for liquid mediums is very short because the heat transfer in liquids is instantaneous!


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InvisibleJosex
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: Mateja]
    #27026750 - 11/07/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Can't wait for you to run a full circle... from firmly believing what you are saying right now, to doing all the experiments you want to try and prove your right, to failing and blaming something else and finally slowly but surely realizing why so many cultivators and mushroom farms go to such great lengths to destroy endospores. It's gonna be beautiful when that happens.
You need less experiments and theories and more actually experiencing.

You really must think you're the woke one to whom the TRUTH is revealed and the rest of us are just asleep sheep following the herd. It's incredibly dumb to disregard all the body of knowledge from experienced and intelligent people regarding this issue.

I'm sending you some shit grain.

15 minutes...
:hahthatscute:


Edited by Josex (11/07/20 12:48 PM)


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: Psilosion]
    #27026755 - 11/07/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Also I made 2 different batches of oatmeal cakes, one that was mixed with with coir that was hydrated 1brick+3L water and the other was made with coir that was hydrated 1brick+3.5L. I've done the same test with BRF cakes years ago when I first started growing so I kind of knew already that the more moist substrates will colonize faster but still feels reassuring to know for sure that it works for oatmeal-coir cakes as well.


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OfflineBrownBear
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: Mateja]
    #27026760 - 11/07/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)



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Invisiblebit2ez
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: BrownBear] * 1
    #27026850 - 11/07/20 01:18 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I am impressed by your ingenuity in temping your spawn jars. However, you are faced with having to explain what is physically being observed. Though flying in the face of basic microbiology, an adjustment has to be made to procedure and thinking. Your jars show bacterial and mold contamination, your LC doesn't and your technique for inoculating has a high success rate. The easiest thing to adjust is adding time to your sterilization cycle. You have hours of leeway until the grains start to caramelize / maillard.


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InvisibleJosex
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: bit2ez]
    #27026857 - 11/07/20 01:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

It's called biased blind.


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Offlinesporecap
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: Josex]
    #27027038 - 11/07/20 03:13 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Awesome thread:takingnotes:
I guess you are in general right that it takes 15min at 121C for essentially everything to die. But you measured the temperature inside the jars, which still could be very different from the grain core temperature? To bring the PC up to 15psi takes quite a while because of the large heat capacity of water, even though it's very efficiently heated, being at the botton of the PC directly above the hot plate / flame of the stove.
So I think it takes an awful lot longer until the steam has transferred enough energy into the grains such that the core, which is at least 60% water when hydrated, reaches 121C.
Once I also got overconfident and thought 15min at 15psi is enough for agar, until I had to throw away 40 freshly poured plates due to contamination.

So what would be your verdict on shaking? I think I missed what happened to the two jars of which one was immediately shaken after inoculation while the other one was not.


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: Mateja] * 1
    #27027079 - 11/07/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mateah said:
Quote:

eLeSDenes said:
I had lots of super clean looking LC which somehow seemed to stall on grains after shake



I really hope I don't sound like a Hitler or anything lol I only recently started to dive into reading research papers and lurking the microbiology forums. I started doing this as a way to better understand the science behind the concept we in MushCult call 'contamination'. I'm learning as I go, the way I phrase the scientific data in my posts may sound like I know alot more about it than I actually do so don't take my word blindly for anything, I encourage everyone to question everything and see for themselves as well. I'm not always right or always have the correct assessment of the sceicne so this thread should have all sorts of inquiries and healthy debates I hope.
:havesomescience:



I hope I won't feel like I need to explain myself on every page for why I choose to express myself in certain ways. Like for example if there arises an inquiry about sterilization times I will always refer to microbiology and their assessment of the 'basics' because it's the most straightforward approach. I'd be an imbecile to assume that an online magic mushroom forum could possibly know more about microorganisms than the global centuries old collected science of microbiology knows about the life of microbes. Now does this mean that I automatically assume that there's zero chance or possibility for the existence of a thermophile that can survive 15min at 121C inside grain just because '15min at 121C' is a 'general rule' used by microbiologists when they conduct their science? Of course not! But I sure as hell am not about to start 'muddying the water' on a clear as day science due to handful of anecdotal accounts from others (note that I'm still not trying to dispute anything or prove anyone wrong on anything) what got me into reading microbiology online discussion groups and forums in the first place was exactly this topic, I find it extremely intriguing and then the science on 'bacterial activity in liquid media=turbidity' is just something that for the moment has captured my curiosity and is what I currently spend most time on researching.


Let's put it this way, for me to suddenly change the way I express myself on the subjects regarding '15min 121C' I'd either need to for myself encounter this problem and have personal experience with it, or I'd need 100% proof and documentation from someone that has either isolated this thermophilic problem and identified it or I'd need to somehow myself have it confirmed that the grower experiencing this problem beyond doubt can demonstrate that this is something that can be replicated by anyone at anytime and thus I'd replicate what has been encountered to prove for myself that it holds merit. And during the time (like right now) that I don't have sufficient data/evidence for the existence of this phenomena I will still not in any way trick myself I to believing that what I currently know is 100% indisputable, how I choose to express myself does not reflect any kind of 'absolute truth' that I think I'm holding, its just for all practical purposes a way I choose to express myself as to not personally add further in muddying the water with 'ghosts' that I have zero scientific explanations for and that seemingly go against rigid centuries old science.


One thing tho should always be perfectly clear to anyone who encounters me on this forum or anywhere else for that matter and it's that I value intellectual integrity and intellectual honesty above anything else, I wholeheartedly dispise parroting, talking about stuff I have zero experience with or anything that goes against science, common sense and reason. Does this mean that I look down on posters who share information about how to construct a flow hood even tho they have never seen a flow hood with their own eyes? Of course not! So many of us have amazing and effective communication/pedagogical skills and ability to teach others. This is a very important/necessary part of this forum and any science for that matter.


Personally I choose not to instruct others on how to sterilize or inoculate bags, not because I wouldn't know what to tell them but because If someone should say something against my instructions or challenge something I had said then I wouldn't feel comfortable in the situation, especially if the situation was reflective of me being positive about saying all the right things but just practically can not back it up by anything from personal experience while someone who I feel is in the wrong actually DOES have personal experience, then I'd be devastated quite frankly and I'd feel once again that the only thing I'm doing is muddying the waters. As said, different folks different strokes, I don't look down on anyone for the way chose to live their life and how they choose to be of assistance to this community, I'll always respect their opinions and views up to a point, but naturally there's no way that I'll take someone serious if he/she starts arguing with me about something I know lots about when the perdon arguing in reality actually doesn't know what he/she is talking about due to lack of personal experience. That's why I'd never get into ARGUMENT with anyone over 'hopelessly thermo-bacterial grain' since I don't have the perspective they have. I might question some facts, refer to own opinions, envoke science at times but at the end of the day I'll never make definitive statements about the subject and never pretent that I'm disproving something or someone when I possess no data whatsoever qualified for having absolute opinions or definitive statements :shrug:


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: Mateja] * 1
    #27027083 - 11/07/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Fuck it I'm making a new rant video instead :evil:
Coming soon... REAAAAALLLL SOOOOOOO*cough cough cough*real soon. Coming real soon. Over.


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: LC Testing + Grow Log [Re: Mateja]
    #27027459 - 11/07/20 07:30 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:tryingnottodie:


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