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OfflineBarbi
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Party [Re: AhronZombi]
    #2710067 - 05/21/04 07:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

AhronZombi said:
not supriseing. ive got a unreleased CNN clip with soldiers killing inocent iraqis walking down the street like its a game, then laughing about it when the reporter interveiws them




Id like to see that.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Party [Re: jp411896]
    #2712862 - 05/21/04 10:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The attack occurred about 2:45 a.m. in a desert region near the border with Syria and Jordan, according to Lt. Col. Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi. He said between 42 and 45 people died, including 15 children and 10 women. Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

The area, a desolate region populated only by shepherds, is popular with smugglers, including weapons smugglers, and the U.S. military suspects militants use it as a route to slip in from Syria to fight the Americans. It is under constant surveillance by American forces.





2:45 in the AM eh. A wedding reception at 2:45 AM? Now I know it's a different culture, but let's look at this rationally.

Who in the hell has a wedding reception just a few hours before dawn, WITH children, in a desolate area of the country known to be heavily used by anti-American forces?
And more importantly, in that situation, what jackass thought it would be a GREAT IDEA to shoot wildly into the air. At 2:45 in the morning. In an area the Americans patrol heavily to try and control the activities of the enemy.

Seriously doesn't this whole thing stink of bullshit to you? It should. Because if they're not lying about the wedding reception thing, the only other two alternatives are either these two particular Iraqi families are severely, SEVERELY retarded, or they somehow decided to get themselves shot at, to make us look bad. Which I guess is pretty retarded anyway.

Quote:

yuck. This has nothing at all to do with war, its just another perfect example of the American military's psychotic lack of respect for human life, ignorance and stupidity. (not to mention a complete lack of cultural understanding and military intelligence)




... what. No really. WHAT? I think THIS (right above) is a perfect example of the psychotic America-does-no-right mentality that's so pervasive. What would you have done in that situation. No one was informed of a wedding, it's TWO FORTY FUCKING FIVE IN THE MORNING, and suddenly, someone starts shooting. Not bang-bang, but didn't they have AK's? Like the guys killing Americans?
So unidentified force starts shooting, there's no way really to tell if they're shooting at you or not, and it's the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere.
Please tell me you would have assumed it was a wedding. Because then I can call you a liar.

Quote:

They've become so obsessed with force protection and having a low body count (only on their side, though) that collateral damage doesn't matter anymore.




Hey I think I got something to mention about that.
Remember when Clin-Ton shot those Tomahawks into Baghdad during Ramadan? They weren't precision munitions. The delivery system is, but those particular tomahawks carried cluster bomblets. Anti-personnel. Tiny bombs that spread over a large area with the expressed purpose of injuring and killing a large number of people.
'Course none of the major news outlets picked up on it, I didn't hear of Iraqis being injured or hurt -- but I'm sure some were. If not I think the entire tomahawk/cluster munition package should be scrapped, because that's what it's designed to do. Not to precisely take out radar sites on rooftops, like they were trying to do.

Quote:

I swear I almost want Bush to lose the election so we get to nitpic everything the flip flopper says.




But we won't be able to have fun doing it, remember? When everyone tried that with the Clintons, suddenly there was a "Vast, Right-Wing Conspiracy" to sully their good name. The mistakes of Republican politicians are generally thrown right on out in front of everyone's face, the mistakes of Democratic politicians are quietly swept under rugs. If Kerry wins, I bet it's not 2 months before CNN declares him the Second Coming of Christ. Bleh. I bet the man whacks off to a picture of himself.


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Party [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2712871 - 05/21/04 10:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I thought about that 2:45 in the morning thing. Then I thought about all the weddings I've been to, and I will say that at 95% of them, the reception went on well until 3, sometimes 4 am. I don't see it being all that unusual.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Party [Re: adrug]
    #2714851 - 05/22/04 03:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think you are telling the truth here. I personally can recall only one after wedding party that went past midnight and it was NOT the reception. Most places here are compelled to close well before the hours you mention. And there were certainly no children present. If firing weapons is a wedding tradition in Iraq, CHANGE IT, at least for now.

If it happened, it sucks; if it didn't, good. I await further reports. The continued lack of reports is somewhat fishy. Some people in NYC pay to have people do to them what these Abu Graib "victims" got. Those reports have been hysteria-ized so much that I can't imagine real deaths being ignored. Like I said, I await further reports.


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Party [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2714883 - 05/22/04 04:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You can think whatever you want, but almost every wedding I have been to had a reception that went on well past 2 in the morning. I don't see why I would lie about something as insignificant and trivial as this.


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Anonymous

Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: ]
    #2715041 - 05/22/04 05:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

US: No evidence of wedding at attack site

"...[Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt] said that troops did not find anything -- such as a wedding tent, gifts, musical instruments, decorations or leftover food -- that would indicate that a wedding had been held.

Most of the men there were of military age, and there were no elders present to indicate a family event, he said.

What was found, he said, indicated the building was used as a waypoint for foreign fighters crossing into Iraq from Syria to battle the coalition.

"The building seemed to be somewhat of a dormitory," Kimmitt said. "You had over 300 sets of bedding gear in it. You had a tremendous number of pre-packaged clothing -- apparently about a hundred sets of pre-packaged clothing; (It is) expected that when foreign fighters come in from other countries, they come to this location, they change their clothes into typical Iraqi clothing sets."

At Saturday's briefing for reporters in Baghdad, Kimmitt showed photos of what he said were binoculars designed for adjusting artillery fire, battery packs suitable for improvised explosive devices, several terrorist training manuals, medical gear, fake ID cards and ID card-making machines, passports and telephone numbers to other countries, including Afghanistan and Sudan.

None of the men killed in the raid carried ID cards or wallets, he said. "We feel that that was an indicator that this was a high risk meeting of high level anti-coalition forces. There was a tremendous number of incriminating pocket litter, a lot of telephone numbers to foreign countries, Afghanistan, Sudan and a number of others."

Kimmitt said while the location was purported to be a sheep ranch, there was no evidence of ranching activities and no livestock.

He said that the coalition would continue to have an open mind about what might have happened, and he conceded there were some inconsistencies still to be worked out.

"The more that we look at intelligence, more we dig in, more we are persuaded no wedding," Kimmitt said.

"We had significant, multiple sources of intelligence" before ordering the raid, he said...."


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: ]
    #2715057 - 05/22/04 05:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So their justification is that AFTERwards they discovered it wasn't a wedding? They're basically saying that they thought it was/could be a wedding when they attacked. That doesn't make it any better. Feh.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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Anonymous

Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: unbeliever]
    #2715098 - 05/22/04 05:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"We had significant, multiple sources of intelligence" before ordering the raid, he said...."


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: ]
    #2715107 - 05/22/04 05:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"The more that we look at intelligence, more we dig in, more we are persuaded no wedding," Kimmitt said.

That to me indicates current investigations into the past event of the attack. That is, they are only now, after the attack, concluding that it was not a wedding party.


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Anonymous

Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: unbeliever]
    #2715148 - 05/22/04 06:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

perhaps you should read it again. he's saying that they had intelligence prior to the raid that it was a staging zone for insurgents (or at the very least, not a wedding party).

...unless you think that the commanders ordered the helicopter gunner to shoot up a random gathering at 2 in the morning in the middle of the desert, and they just got lucky.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: ]
    #2715173 - 05/22/04 06:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Considering how long it took for this new "spin" to come out on the story, I think it's very possible. Anyway, yes it said they had intelligence prior to the attack, but not that it indicated whether it was a wedding party or not. Everything else in what you posted is evidence of discovery, after the fact.

Quote:

None of the men killed in the raid carried ID cards or wallets, he said. "We feel that that was an indicator that this was a high risk meeting of high level anti-coalition forces. There was a tremendous number of incriminating pocket litter, a lot of telephone numbers to foreign countries, Afghanistan, Sudan and a number of others."




Killed. Past tense. They people in the heliocoptor had no way of knowing what was in the pockets of the people they were firing on.

Quote:

Kimmitt said while the location was purported to be a sheep ranch, there was no evidence of ranching activities and no livestock.




Proving nothing except that what they attacked.. wasn't a sheep ranch.

Quote:

What was found, he said, indicated the building was used as a waypoint for foreign fighters crossing into Iraq from Syria to battle the coalition.




Found. Past tense.

I'm not saying that there is no other possiblity than the worse case scenario (they attacked with the understanding it was a wedding party), rather I'm just saying that based on what you posted, that scenario is something to consider and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Even the General admitted there wasn't a clear answer yet.

Quote:

He said that the coalition would continue to have an open mind about what might have happened, and he conceded there were some inconsistencies still to be worked out.




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Anonymous

Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: unbeliever]
    #2715194 - 05/22/04 06:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

so what you're saying is that you do believe that commanders ordered the helicopter gunner to shoot up a random gathering (or what they thought to be a wedding party) at 2 in the morning in the middle of the desert, and they just got lucky?


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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
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Registered: 04/14/04
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: unbeliever]
    #2715199 - 05/22/04 06:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
Considering how long it took for this new "spin" to come out on the story, I think it's very possible. Anyway, yes it said they had intelligence prior to the attack, but not that it indicated whether it was a wedding party or not. Everything else in what you posted is evidence of discovery, after the fact.




The only thing that the US militarymen knew was that they were being fired upon. The wedding thing came after the fact by, apparently, lying arabs.


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2715218 - 05/22/04 06:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

so what you're saying is that you do believe that commanders ordered the helicopter gunner to shoot up a random gathering (or what they thought to be a wedding party) at 2 in the morning in the middle of the desert, and they just got lucky?




I believe in the possiblity. Nothing more.

Quote:

The only thing that the US militarymen knew was that they were being fired upon. The wedding thing came after the fact by, apparently, lying arabs.




And if that's all it was, that's great. The only point of concern is the fact that this was a planned raid. Whether or not it was a wedding party is irrelevant. Based on what I've read so far concerning the pre-op intel is that they simply did not know what they were going to find, yet they attacked anyway. It seems fate really did favour the bold this time and they wound up with what appears to be some sort of terrorist or rebel camp. Bully for them.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: ]
    #2717653 - 05/23/04 09:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"We had significant, multiple sources of intelligence" before ordering the raid, he said...."

Sounds like what they said about WMD...


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Anonymous

Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: Xlea321]
    #2717655 - 05/23/04 09:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

but this time it looks like they were right.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: ]
    #2717656 - 05/23/04 09:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If you believe Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt..


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Anonymous

Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: Xlea321]
    #2717690 - 05/23/04 10:26 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

eh.


Edited by mushmaster (05/23/04 10:33 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: ]
    #2717920 - 05/23/04 12:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

He's the guy your article quotes.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: U.S. Helicopter Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Wedding Pa [Re: Xlea321]
    #2721118 - 05/24/04 01:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

"We had significant, multiple sources of intelligence" before ordering the raid, he said...."

Sounds like what they said about WMD...




Actually.

A 155mm artillery shell was found exploded by a roadside. That had contained serin gas.. and well hey thats a wmd. was said the military doesnt believe the bomber knew it wasn't a HE round. Which is pretty easy to tell, if they knew it was a nerve gas they would've exploded it near people, where it could spread, explosive woulda been set to hit something differently..

so they weren't ENTIRELY wrong, maybe just not as right.

But so far as this is concerned.. remember:

Quote:

Al-Ani, the doctor, said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters later arrived and attacked the area. Two houses were destroyed, he said




So according to Al-Ani, the lying doctor, American troops came to check this shit out and were told it was a wedding party. This is speculation, but I think that when they saw that there wasn't really a celebration, that there wasn't really two families gathered there, they decided to get the fuck out. Then there was gunfire at some point, 'wedding celebration' gunfire, but I guess there wasn't a wedding so I guess it was probably at US forces. So they sent them directly to hell, without passing go or collecting 200 virgins.

Quote:

I thought about that 2:45 in the morning thing. Then I thought about all the weddings I've been to, and I will say that at 95% of them, the reception went on well until 3, sometimes 4 am. I don't see it being all that unusual.




But were the kids up that late... no young kids cant stay up that late.
Though honestly if they were having a wedding in a desert they probably waited till night, when it was cooler, to have it.. so it probably wasn't that long after the wedding. probably still several hours, and thats still real late for kids. whatever, i dunno, cant say i really know iraqi wedding tradition -- but kids at 2:45 am, that's nuts.


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