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Surfingmycelium
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Grain Bag Issue 1
#27016041 - 11/01/20 04:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hey Guys,
So, I had 12 grain bags I purchases online from a well known website. I don’t think I’m allowed to say which but it is one of the reputable places. They were 5 grain bags.
I inoculated
2 with a GT ms syringe (2.5 ccs) 2 with a Mazatapec ms syringe (2.5 ccs) 2 with a GT LC (3 ccs all mycelium) 2 with a PE LC (3 ccs all mycelium) 2 with a colonized agar plate 2 with a a half pint of fully colonized GT popcorn grain.
Syringes were also purchased from a reputable place. I did a grow with one of them in the summer using the same type of bags and had no issues. My biggest fruit from this grow was put to agar and cleaned up and made into LC and agar plates, which is what I used.
Anyway, my issue is, NOT ONE of these bags colonized. Not even a little. Nothing. They just got mushy over time. I let them got for about a month and nothing at all happened.
I know it wasn’t the starting material because I used 3 different mediums and it was growing out nicely on the agar and grains and in the LC. I used a still air box. My temps were around 75 degrees as well.
It seems to me that the bags are the issue. I just find it odd that all 12 were bad. How is that possible? You’d think I’d get some growth. It was going hang busters on the agar and in my grain jar but nothing when it hit the bags.
It’s not a huge deal since I finally got a pressure cooker (6 qt for now) and will be making my own grains going forward but I’m just curious why it didn’t colonize. I’m also a little annoyed that I wasted all that money on these for no reason.
Anybody ever have this issue or have any ideas on why it happened?
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OldManRiver
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Registered: 11/12/17
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ugh, when did you get them? I just ordered what I suspect are the same product. Sounds like they had a bad production run.
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Surfingmycelium
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Like 2 months ago I got them
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Tazedelics
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Registered: 10/22/20
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i think i know who your talking about.. i was going to do the same thing...i also jus ordered from lil shop of spores? but im nervous
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Surfingmycelium
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It was a place in the Midwest if you know what I mean.
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Mnemosynea
Trying to Remember


Registered: 10/23/20
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I ordered 2 grains bags from the place you’re insinuating and the same thing happened to me.
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TedsDead



Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 4,998
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Did u test the lc first?
-------------------- weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed... -the fabulous furry freak bros If you can buy it, you can burn it!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396
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Surfingmycelium
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Re: Grain Bag Issue [Re: TedsDead]
#27016410 - 11/01/20 08:58 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TedsDead said: Did u test the lc first?
Yeah! I grew it out on agar. I also colonized 3 grain jars I made with it. It’s not that.
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TedsDead



Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 4,998
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Then i would tray making your own grainbags. I would never trust one that i bought. I mean, They go through the mail
It was the bags, the inoculant, or your procedure.
-------------------- weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed... -the fabulous furry freak bros If you can buy it, you can burn it!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396
Edited by TedsDead (11/01/20 09:05 PM)
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Surfingmycelium
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Re: Grain Bag Issue [Re: TedsDead]
#27016544 - 11/01/20 10:37 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TedsDead said: Then i would tray making your own grainbags. I would never trust one that i bought. I mean, They go through the mail
It was the bags, the inoculant, or your procedure.
Yeah, this was before I had my PC. I didn’t want the bags going to waste so I used them. I wanted to do a comparison with a ms syringe, agar, LC and G2G and document what were the pros and cons to each. For my own curiosity. I won’t buy them again because I have no reason to. I have jars and a PC now. I was just wondering why none of them worked out.
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TedsDead



Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 4,998
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I mean, did they contaminate or just that nothing happened? You noc'ed some with agar and grain so procedure/user error could definitely be at fault. At this point one can only guess without doing further trials/tests with the same inoculants and bags/grain
-------------------- weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed... -the fabulous furry freak bros If you can buy it, you can burn it!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396
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FriedEgg



Registered: 09/22/14
Posts: 2,536
Loc: Taiwan
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Quote:
Surfingmycelium said: It seems to me that the bags are the issue. I just find it odd that all 12 were bad. How is that possible?
this is why:
Quote:
Surfingmycelium said: Like 2 months ago I got them
there is bacteria in nearly all sterilized grain from endospores that survive the sterilization cycle. but it's not a problem if you colonize your grain as soon as possible before the bacteria multiplies. if 2-3 months passes by, then by that time surely the bacteria has grown wild. overly hydrated grains can speed up this process. you don't know how or when those bags were actually sterilized. they could have been sterilized too quickly, the PC not vented, too low of a pressure, hydrated too much, or sterilized a lot longer ago than you think. also, grain bags are hard to do in a SAB so maybe you weren't perfect with your inoculation.
-------------------- (Yes, the egg is real)
How to post pics
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Surfingmycelium
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Re: Grain Bag Issue [Re: TedsDead]
#27016770 - 11/02/20 05:29 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
TedsDead said: I mean, did they contaminate or just that nothing happened? You noc'ed some with agar and grain so procedure/user error could definitely be at fault. At this point one can only guess without doing further trials/tests with the same inoculants and bags/grain
Nothing happened. My agar was clean so I inoculated a small grain jar. That grain jar grew out nicely so I put it to the bags. I also had more agar with clean mycelium so I also used that to Inoculate. I had everything in a SAB and quickly transferred. I’d think I’d see some growth or at least contamination of some sort. Didn’t even do that.
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Surfingmycelium
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Re: Grain Bag Issue [Re: FriedEgg]
#27016785 - 11/02/20 05:40 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
FriedEgg said:
there is bacteria in nearly all sterilized grain from endospores that survive the sterilization cycle. but it's not a problem if you colonize your grain as soon as possible before the bacteria multiplies. if 2-3 months passes by, then by that time surely the bacteria has grown wild. overly hydrated grains can speed up this process. you don't know how or when those bags were actually sterilized. they could have been sterilized too quickly, the PC not vented, too low of a pressure, hydrated too much, or sterilized a lot longer ago than you think. also, grain bags are hard to do in a SAB so maybe you weren't perfect with your inoculation.
I mean, I totally agree contam could have been an issue and the bags were harder to work with in the SAB but what about the ms syringe or the LC? I injected them directly in. I also injected it into grain jars I made and they colonized perfectly.
12 bags and nothing. Not even a sign of contamination.
You’re right though maybe they were old to begin with when they sent them to me. Then I waited a few weeks to inoculate. Maybe they dried out? That sounds like a good explanation. I would just think at least one would have done something.
I guess it is what it is. It’s more of a curiosity so I can learn. I’m never getting those again now that I have a PC. Just trying to solve the mystery of the uncolonized bags. Lol
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Mnemosynea
Trying to Remember


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I don’t think it’s your process or your cultures/spores. If only a couple bags failed I would say that. But all of them? No, I think it’s what FriedEgg said. The bacteria in the bag was allowed to take enough of a foothold to prevent your fungal growth. This was the conclusion I came to with my bags that did the same thing. I was using proven spores and A+ technique.
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TedsDead



Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 4,998
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Maybe not enough oxygen. Did these bags have filters?
Ive transfered nice looking masters into bags of sterilized grain and sealed them below the filter... nothing ever grew
-------------------- weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed... -the fabulous furry freak bros If you can buy it, you can burn it!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396
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Surfingmycelium
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Re: Grain Bag Issue [Re: TedsDead]
#27017857 - 11/02/20 04:55 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, they had a big square filter patch at the top right below where it was sealed.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Mnemosynea said: I was using proven spores and A+ technique.
Shooting spores into a spawn bag is more like an F- for technique. I would go as far as to say that it's asinine. If you can run bags then why can't you make agar.
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TedsDead



Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 4,998
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At this point it definitely sounds technique related
-------------------- weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed... -the fabulous furry freak bros If you can buy it, you can burn it!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396
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Mnemosynea
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Re: Grain Bag Issue [Re: TedsDead]
#27018057 - 11/02/20 06:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said: Shooting spores into a spawn bag is more like an F- for technique. I would go as far as to say that it's asinine. If you can run bags then why can't you make agar.
Obviously. Read the thread. The whole point of these is NOT for producing optimized results, but for experimentation (fun). By technique in that context I was referring to sterile environment for inoculation. OP Did use agar.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Mnemosynea said:
Quote:
p9hu7 said: Shooting spores into a spawn bag is more like an F- for technique. I would go as far as to say that it's asinine. If you can run bags then why can't you make agar.
Obviously. Read the thread. The whole point of these is NOT for producing optimized results. By technique in that context I was referring to sterile environment for inoculation. OP Did use agar.
You are missing the point. The method of inoculation is part and parcel to sterile technique, if you use a spore syringe to noc up a spawn bag you may consider your technique to be non sterile and therefore garbage.
Proper technique would have followed a chain of sterile procedures like:
Spores cleaned on agar>agar wedge used to make either LC,LI, or wedge to grain for grain master> use LC LI, or gtg with the master.
Shooting spores into grain and then asking why you couldn't grow anything is a giant 
Using pre sterilized bags that have been shipped in the mail and then left to sit is equally prone to failure.
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TedsDead



Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 4,998
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Theres obviously something going wrong if "all the innoculants and grain bags were perfect" everything was totally right but nothing grew... hmmm... seems lime something wasnt right if there was that many bags bougjt that were from a "reputable" vendor and it wasnt the innoculant or technique then that vendor isnt reputable. Theres always people on here saying " I did everything right but my shit fucked up?" Obviously you didnt do everything right
-------------------- weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed... -the fabulous furry freak bros If you can buy it, you can burn it!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396
Edited by TedsDead (11/02/20 06:44 PM)
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Mnemosynea
Trying to Remember


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Quote:
p9hu7 said: Shooting spores into grain and then asking why you couldn't grow anything is a giant 
I wasn't asking, neither was OP. The question was about the viability of the grain bags themselves. With as many different ways as OP attempted to grow something on this grain, it's fairly obvious that after having sat for 2+ months they were no longer viable.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Yeah, that's why I quoted you, and not the OP.
Quote:
p9hu7 said:
Quote:
Mnemosynea said: I was using proven spores and A+ technique.
Pretty sure he mentioned using spores, LC, and g2g....so it's still relevant to the OP, especially that last part about using questionable spawn bags
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TedsDead



Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 4,998
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Nothing is adding up still... even if the bags sat for that long the OP says there were no signs of contamination. Just no growth... ive let bags sit for that long before nocing and theyve been fine. I attribute it to technique... or they are just not trained at recognizing contamination
-------------------- weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed... -the fabulous furry freak bros If you can buy it, you can burn it!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Grain Bag Issue [Re: TedsDead]
#27018095 - 11/02/20 06:54 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I agree, what we've mentioned in our responses covers the gambit. It could be any of the above...from poorly sterilized/compromised bags, to dirty spore syringe and poor technique or bad spawn....or all of the above.
The only way to truly know is to deconstruct. Assume it's a little bit of everything. Use fresh properly sterilized bags. No spore syringes, ensure proper technique to produce clean spawn.
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Surfingmycelium
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So since I received my pressure cooker I have been making my own grains and doing agar work and all is going great. I had 12 bags laying around that I had no real use for since I was doing jars in my PC now. So I decided to use them before they got too old cause the website said use within three months If I remember correctly. They were about a month old from when I received them but I have no idea how old they actually were since I bought them from an online source.
I did put spores on agar and clean them up. I also used a piece from the center of mushroom stem from a previous grow and put that to agar and grew that out and cleaned it up. I also put a piece of clean agar into a LC solution and grew that out. Before I used the LC I put it on agar and made sure it was clean.
I have used the agar and LC to inoculate the grains I made myself and they came out great. I took some of those grains as well and put them in the bags and nothing happened but I also put them in the jars I made and they grew out great.
Yes, the spore syringes I used on the bags was a roll of the dice and more or less me just seeing what would happen. My first ever grow was a ms syringe grow in a 65 qt mono and although it did eventually contam with the green, I got one huge flush out of it. If anyone cares to see it I have a thread with the grow back in July. It was super fun being my first grow. Learned a lot from you guys during it.
Anyway, I know better now then to use a ms syringe when I can just use agar first, but I had so many bags I was just curious as to which would colonize faster and was really just experimenting.
I just think I would see some growth in at least one of the 12. I mean, even contamination growth. A few of the bags after a month got like wet looking inside but that was about it.
I don’t know. Maybe they were just too dry inside.
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Surfingmycelium
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Well, I just saw on their website that their grain bags are only good for 4-5 weeks at room temperature. I had then for about 3.5 - 4 weeks before I used them so I’m guessing they were just too old. Maybe they dried out? I don’t know but I guess that’s what it was.
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