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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world?
    #2701471 - 05/19/04 03:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

hey yall
theres been ALOT of talk about OBE's around here, and many of us (myself included) seem to have experienced at least one. Usually these posts become arguments about weather OBE's are 'real' or not, and various theories about what causes them.

Now, this is a question that probably wont be satisfactorily answerd for all of us, but what we know is that people do HAVE these experiences. what we dont know is if they are REAL in the sense that the things we see are actually based in the real world (the waking world)

in other words, can a person in an obe read a sign or see something that that person could not have ever seen in real life?

or are these just another sort of dream, or hallucination, or mental state that is primarily internal?

now i think the best way to answer this question is to record our own experiences in as much detail as possible and objectively analyze the results.

Ive had at least 6 well documented OBE's now, and my analysis has shown that consistently, the things i percieve well 'out of my body' are not the current waking world. THey are some kind of dream, vision, or astral projection, or else while in them the perceptual abilities are so alterd that it is impossible to accuratly tell what is real and what isnt.

Heres why:

in one of my first OBEs i rose out of my body and looked around my room from the upper corner of my room. Everything was hazy and grey, but it was definetly my room. I decided to float up through my roof, and i shot up like an arrow. As soon as i passed through the roof, everything went black and i experienced some kind of cognitive confusion before waking up. My interpretation is that once i flew out of the well known region of my room, my mind (which was somehow creating the whole exprience like in a dream) was unable to create consistent sensory information and so everything went black. THis is similar to when in a dream you try to read a book and you get a confused feeling as your brain struggles to maintain the story and come up with a book as you go.

In another experience i left my body and floated to my door. i couldnt get through it so i 'opened it' (i reached out from a floating position, turned the doornob and opened the door) and flew past and down my stairs. I could see my house in perfect, realistic detail, and had total cognitive lucidity. i turned around and flew back into my body and immediatly woke up and looked at the door. of course, it was still closed. This is a simple objective test showing discrepencies between things that were percieved in an OBE and what was actually happening.

In a third OBE i 'rolled out' of my body and onto the floor beside it. I immediatly started being pulled violently from side to side and could see my room whizzing by as i was thrown about. i sensed that i was being sucked back to my body, which i didnt want to do. So i forcefully projected myself through the wall away from my body. As soon as i passed that wall i should have been in my adjacent sunroom. Rather i had a short glimpse of a psychadelic crazy-world , which i wont even try to describe. The simplest explanation is that as soon as i left the well memorized confines of my room the OBE turns into a regular dream, with no relation to the physical world.

Other experiences tend to confirm this. Once i floated up to my roof and saw purple flowers growing on it. Obviously those flowers arent really there. ANother time well floating i saw writing on my floors and walls, that wasnt there.

Anyways, occams Razer would tend to suggest that these experiences are definetly not direct disembodied perception of a real world but rather an internal vision like dreams, although admitedly with consistent differing charecteristics.

Now this is only my own experience, and id like to hear from other. How do you explain these incidences of unreality in OBE's?

again there are other possibilities and explanations, but the simplest one is certainly that these experiences arent 'real' in the sense that they allow us to float around in the physical world.

Has anyone been able to disprove this? and i mean any of you who have them on this forum, not some author or something.

Anyways thats as close as i think we can come to the 'objective study' thats so often demanded of us.

id like to hear from others

peace


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2701502 - 05/19/04 03:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i watched this video on one of the worlds most renowned skeptics (i cant believe i cant remember his name). he did not believe in astral projection/obe but one night he had the experience. he experiences the typical vibrating/humming/bee sound/etc then left his body while laying in bed very relaxed. he was completely sober (he has never done a drug in his entire life).
he thought it out the best he could and came to the conclusion he couldn't explain what happed using science, then he decided to tell his family. he said how he left his body, saw different parts of his room, and even saw his cat laying by the TV. his wife then told him the cat wasn't home, they had a guest over for dinner who was allergic to cats so she dropped it off at his sisters the night before.
there was no cat


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: spud]
    #2701550 - 05/19/04 03:32 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

OOBE's in my experience seem to be another realm of existence.One can see this easily since during an OOBE you cannot interact with physical objects which means one is not in the physical realm.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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Invisiblespud
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2701558 - 05/19/04 03:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

or it could just be a dream like hallucination state


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2701632 - 05/19/04 03:49 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

OBE's involve sensory input. "Reality" involves sensory input. Definging what is truly real or not is very much impossible, as it's all subjective to the brain receiving the sensory input. As for the door not being open, think of this. When you leave your body, your physical body does not move. This indicates that this phenomenon cannot affect the physical environment. However this does not mean they are not "real". There are theories that the body one inhabits during an OBE is their etheric body, or energy body. This makes sense, as without a body or mind we would be pure conscious energy.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: deff]
    #2701681 - 05/19/04 04:02 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OBE's involve sensory input



please back up this claim


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: spud]
    #2701714 - 05/19/04 04:09 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Anything is possible however I do not feel from my personal experiences that it is a dream-like hallucination state.However I dont precisely know what it is so again anything is definitely possible. lol


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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Invisiblespud
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2701728 - 05/19/04 04:11 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HypnoToad said:
Anything is possible however I do not feel from my personal experiences that it is a dream-like hallucination state.However I dont precisely know what it is so again anything is definitely possible. lol



what evidence do you have that leads you to believe its not a dream like state?
there is some scientific evidence to support it, care to find any that rejects it?


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2701736 - 05/19/04 04:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

By sensory input I meant information sent to the brain for processing, and not actual physical input from the five senses. I'm sorry, bad phrasing indeed.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: deff]
    #2701748 - 05/19/04 04:14 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

that is not sensory input, and that is where reality and OBE differ
your original method of linking them was with sensory input which no longer stands true as you just admited providing no similar link.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: deff]
    #2701760 - 05/19/04 04:16 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I meant information sent to the brain for processing, and not actual physical input from the five senses.



oh, btw, that is no different than drug induced hallucinations, if anything you are just linking OBE closer to hallucinations


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: spud]
    #2702438 - 05/19/04 07:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

spud: It is my current belief that our brains are limited to the amount of reality we are able to receive. When you dose on a hallucinogenic drug (mushrooms, LSD, DMT), it overloads parts of your brain forcing more intake of reality. We arent used to processing all that information so we become disoriented.

What do you think about that?


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisiblespud
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: psyka]
    #2702490 - 05/19/04 07:50 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i could understand that
i think it is possible that psychedelics allow our mind to run in a state, which if it ran at constantly it would burn out
it is sort of like over clocking your brain, and doing these could enhance the way you viewed reality.
pure speculation though


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Offlineshamanality
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2702788 - 05/19/04 09:24 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

with my experience in mind, i would have to agree most with deff.

his post reminded me of the conclusion the scientific body came to on dreams(not word for word here i kinda wing it). the conclusion stated that during the dream state the brain is actually functioning the same as when in waking reality, howerver the brain is creating or reproducing the "sensory input", so as not to disturb the physical body.

and one more thing, in deffs post he concluded these OOBE's could be performed from an etheric body, this idea comes from mysticism and has never been viewed with the science mind, in my perspective asking for scientific data is request impossible to grant.

these discussions take place on the dividing line between the right and left hemisphere, logic is the only place to stand to attempt to understand, but these experiences take place in the mystery.

good day.


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OfflineSource
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2704096 - 05/20/04 02:26 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

As to the question of whether or not OBE's bear any relation to reality, consider the possibility that reality is what we call shared experience. I don't think it's possible to interact with 'physical reality' while having an OBE, but it may be possible to share experiences with others who are also having an OBE. Therefore the OBE may have an effect on the 'astral reality' - for lack of a better term.

I have personally shared two very vivid dreams (which I believe are part and parcel of the OBE experience) with a very close friend of mine. In both cases I was eager to tell him about my unusually lucid dream, but he, being equally eager to share HIS dream told me the details first.

His version in the first case was absolutely the same dream I had experienced (I was dying in my dream and he was attempting to administer CPR via pushing on my chest. I was yelling at him that he wasn't doing it right). In the second dream his version was slightly different but what we did share was that someone was out to kill me and that I had a gun with only one bullet as protection.

As far as I can see it, we were sharing an experience that is apart from physical reality but is still a 'reality' because of the fact that we shared it.

Hope this makes sense!


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: Source]
    #2704398 - 05/20/04 03:59 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i've been able to interact with physical reality via remote prescence, and OBE is just a more advanced form of that, so i'm going to say its possible to OBE to real reality, and act in it.

with practice of course. i'm up to about OBE #50, and from the books and internet an shit i've read it seems like things only start to get decently controlable around 200 or so.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2704498 - 05/20/04 05:30 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"i've been able to interact with physical reality via remote prescence"

To interact with the physical realm means if you were to try to pass through an object it would stop you.If you bumped into a vase on a stand it would fall over.That sort of interaction with your physical environment.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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OfflineHypnoToad
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: spud]
    #2704510 - 05/20/04 05:42 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research 1968, vol. 62, no. 1, pp. 3-27

A young woman who frequently had spontaneous out body experiences was studied in a sleep laboratory for four nights. She reported several partially out experiences and two full ones. While the physiological data are limited by dependence on her retrospective report in correlating physiological pattern with the experience, it seems as if her out experiences occurred in conjunction with a non-dreaming, non-awake brain wave stage characterized by predominant slowed alpha activity from her brain and no activation of the autonomic nervous system. Two incidents occurring in the laboratory provide suggestive evidence that the out of-the-body experiences had parapsychological concomitants.

Copyright ? 1968 by the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research.

http://www.paradigm-sys.com/cttart/sci-docs/ctt68-apsoo.html



A man called Raymond A. Moody PhD. M.D. is often thought as the father of NDEs and has written a very popular book ?Life after Life? on the subject. According to Richard Craze in his book ?A Beginners Guide to Astral Projection? over the last 45 years there has been a more scientific approach taken. The first major study was done in 1951 was by someone called Muldoon and Carrington. They collected and collated over 100 cases of OOBEs. They found that their research did indicate a ?double? that could live consciously outside the physical body and that could also survive the death of the individual. Richard Crookhall has also written many books on astral projection, and he states a number of recurrent themes.


? Some form of double.

? A white light or illumination.

? Ability to travel at will.

? Inability to move or use physical objects.

? Feelings of tranquility and detachment.

? A ?clear? consciousness of what is happening.

? A sense of realness.

http://www.paranormality.com/astral_projection_faqs.shtml

A search on google.com using OOBE and science as the keywords brought up these pages.It didnt take me long at all to find pages supporting me.(IE 10 seconds)

Im sure one could find dozens more easily.


--------------------
"There is no fire like lust, no grip like hate, no net like delusions, no river like craving."



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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: HypnoToad]
    #2705898 - 05/20/04 03:35 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

hypnotoad. you misunderstood. i didn't say my physical body interacted with the physical world while remote prescencing, i said "I" did.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Evidence that OBE's do not relate to the physical world? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2706664 - 05/20/04 05:49 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, remote presence is quite the nifty ability. Just curious, what exactly do you do to perform it? (meditation/trance, visualizations?) I've read some good articles on it but I forget a lot about it, and plus it'd be neat to hear what works for you :smile:


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