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OfflineInnernaut
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Registered: 09/16/03
Posts: 245
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G2G genetic degeneration
    #2701230 - 05/19/04 02:25 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I have a friend who has been doing G2G on millet jars with quite success. When reading "The Mushroom Cultivator" by Paul Stamets it says, "Innoculations beyond the third generation are not recommended. Indeed, if a contamination rate above 10% is experienced at the second generation of transfers then consider it a terminal stage for G2G." He continues, "Every cultivator must ultimately return to agar culture in order to maintain the purity of the strain" (pg 51).

My friends situation is that this is his fourth generation of G2G and has had 100% success rate. No jars were lost due to contamination. They are very very colonized, although, the rhizomorphic mycelium is much more sparse and the growth is primarily tomentose (cottony). Earlier in "The Mushroom Cultivator" it states that, "rhizomorphic mycelium is more apt to produce promordia," and on the next page, "In, General, a change from rhizomorphic to cottony looking mycelium should be a warning that strain degeneration has begun."

When he cases the jars do you think they will fruit (he has a great success rate)? What would be required to bring back the rhizomorphs other than agar? thanks


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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: G2G genetic degeneration [Re: Innernaut]
    #2702067 - 05/19/04 05:37 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

you have all the answers there in your question - your mycelium is showing signs of degeneration away from the fruiting type. it might be okay, but i wouldn't second guess stamets. if you have no other option, you could at least try stressing it some more by giving it something different to eat - but that is a guess.

you made prints from the first or second generation, right? so your easiest way forward is to use spores.

isn't it time you tried a new strain? something differnt - the monsters from India (Malabar, Orissa) maybe?


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buh


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OfflineInnernaut
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Registered: 09/16/03
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Re: G2G genetic degeneration [Re: shirley knott]
    #2702891 - 05/19/04 09:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I guess the question I am asking is can he take prints from the fruits off of this generation of casings and start the cyle over from those spores or does he have to completely reorder new spores? thanks..


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: G2G genetic degeneration [Re: Innernaut]
    #2703668 - 05/20/04 12:44 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yes. The spores will not be degenerated. It is only due to too many cell divisions of the mycelium, which it simply cannot divide any further without problems. The mycelium that has not undergone any type of mutation or degeneration will be what forms mushrooms (since it needs to produce even more cells to form fruitbodies).

That is, if it hasn't degenerated to the point where you grow mutants, sterile mushrooms, or no mushrooms at all. I was in a similar situation (sort of) dealing with the possibility of strain degeneration. It did not turn out in my favor and 50% of my efforts to revive the isolate were a failure. I am still doing trials with the other 50% of the subcultures. The ones I am currently working with were made from the original rye kernals I spawned the substrate with (had to dig them out as I tried to get as close to the original spawn as I could). The ones that failed were clones from the mushrooms (I grew mycelium that did not fruit). I have more spores than I would ever need, but I really want this isolate (I know I am causing more work than necessary, but it's fun anyway). The mycelium looks good so far, but I don't know if I will be able to put it back into stock, or do many transfers with it. I am still waiting for results...

You can read a more detailed description of my ordeal  here in case you are interested. But yes, those spores should be fine provided you do get them...

Good luck!  :thumbup:


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Offlinerye
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Re: G2G genetic degeneration [Re: ATWAR]
    #5993588 - 08/24/06 08:47 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

so if i g2g lets say 3x and take a print from a fruit, the print will be less than favorable?


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blue are the life giving waters taken for granted, they quietly understand.

                                  j    hendrix.


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Offlinewiggles
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Re: G2G genetic degeneration [Re: rye]
    #5993898 - 08/24/06 10:02 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

Okie, the basis of the degradation is this... In genetics, its accepted that mutations occur after a fairly regular interval of cell divisions (say, every 10 generations or so). That's one of the ways that they do dating on fossils, based on heredity (and how they can say that we stemmed from chimps about, say, 1 million years ago).

The same applies with other living things. You start with a fresh set of genetics, but after so many cell divisions have occurred leading to 'new' cells, mutations will occur. So, after 3 or 4 jars worth of G2G transfers, so many cell divisions have occurred that the mutations can cause the jars to be pretty much unviable. They'll still colonize, but some things have changed.

However, even if just one fruit blooms, you still will be able to restart things with 2 viable spores.

Ain't nature spiffy?


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You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye.
Hunter S. Thompson


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OfflineWronguy
Registered: 03/05/05
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Re: G2G genetic degeneration [Re: wiggles]
    #5993916 - 08/24/06 10:07 PM (11 years, 2 months ago)

While this topic does have benefit in our current practices, it's over 2 years old. Please check the dates before replying to old threads. This topic was probably best served as research material. Again, good topic, just reminding folks to check the dates before replying.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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