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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27005858 - 10/27/20 08:06 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
...
see blindsight -
Quote:

Blindsight challenges the common belief that perceptions must enter consciousness to affect our behavior; showing that our behavior can be guided by sensory information of which we have no conscious awareness.







in this, the language is stumbling over it's own words:
"our behavior can be guided by sensory information of which we have no conscious awareness"

1) the study included afflicted individuals for whom visual signals enter the brain but do not go to the visual cortex as per usual - this is not is not exactly "we", but the study's insights can be applied to "us" once distilled clearly and put into concise language. We do need to think about what has happened to "them" in this test case, and then apply it to "us".

2) "conscious awareness" is a brutal deformation of meaning, i.e. either there is awareness or there is not, adding the term conscious does not clarify awareness unless it imparts the term linguistic (aka discursive thought using words), as in linguistic awareness, or descriptive awareness in familiar words.
leaving the term conscious here indirectly perverts the meaning of conscious towards anything familiar enough to be describable in language.

My guess is that the authors of the study believe that consciousness is a verbal presence, and that is a horrifically reductive attitude but common in this branch of scientific study.

Importantly, this underscores that blindsight exists. Some signals are definitely received and associated with existing proprioception and movement (referred to as processing), even though this 'sense' is not among our usual FIVE SENSES, it is a real channel of visual input and people experience it, and the people tested were using it but not particularly "NOTICING" that they were using it by using any words in our current language.

Unless specific experiences were shared, I think these people will continue to not observe the ability but just use it, without developing language for this activity/sensory experience.

In this case,  they are certainly conscious of it but certainly not aware of all that they are conscious of. As living entities they use blindsight just the same as they use hearing. Most of what we hear, we are not aware of even though we are conscious of it and responsive to it. The best term we have for this is subliminal, and that is what we are aware of but generally do not pay attention to.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27007741 - 10/28/20 07:18 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

What I don't get is how the autonomous system would fit into the whole hypothesis. The autonomous system isn't generally controlled through conscious effort. (however with some practices it can be brought forth by conscious effort)

To me that seems like evidence that there is a subconscious that can be accessed through the conscious.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27007912 - 10/28/20 09:04 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
What I don't get is how the autonomous system would fit into the whole hypothesis. The autonomous system isn't generally controlled through conscious effort. (however with some practices it can be brought forth by conscious effort)



the autonomous system is loosely coupled to the brain and consciousness.
indistinct input and very little direct output from the brain.
we know more about what the autonomic system is doing from our skin and skeletal muscular afferent and efferent systems. It is a carry forward in evolution, and a good one. Most likely it is serviced to some degree by the cerebellar timing circuits, and the pituitary interactions with endocrine activity. Otherwise it is not subject to sensory and associative homeostasis (aka consciousness).

Quote:

teknix said:
To me that seems like evidence that there is a subconscious that can be accessed through the conscious.




not evidence, but a good exploratory question.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27008058 - 10/28/20 10:28 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

the autonomous system is loosely coupled to the brain and consciousness.
indistinct input and very little direct output from the brain.
we know more about what the autonomic system is doing from our skin and skeletal muscular afferent and efferent systems. It is a carry forward in evolution, and a good one. Most likely it is serviced to some degree by the cerebellar timing circuits, and the pituitary interactions with endocrine activity. Otherwise it is not subject to sensory and associative homeostasis (aka consciousness).





Loosely coupled? Down playing the significance doesn't really make it less significant.

If consciousness is the extent of awareness to perceive and sense the environment, then the subconscious would be that part of the environment that is not immediately perceivable but known to exist. IE; Below the conscious.

The mechanisms of the body work with our senses in the forefront of awareness perception, the underlying mechanisms are still functioning even if they aren't perceptible. The mechanism that continue to work outside the immediate perception of awareness is called what iyo?

The known but not immediately perceivable subconscious can be accessed by the conscious.

You need to take examples like Wim Hof seriously when considering the full extent of our awareness compared to what is perceptible to an average person. Renaming the areas we can access through practice and expansion of awareness to something else doesn't take away the fact that it is done by many every day.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27008067 - 10/28/20 10:33 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

what do you guys suppose could be the purpose of awareness?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27008075 - 10/28/20 10:35 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

collecting memories :smile:


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27008083 - 10/28/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
What I don't get is how the autonomous system would fit into the whole hypothesis. The autonomous system isn't generally controlled through conscious effort. (however with some practices it can be brought forth by conscious effort)

To me that seems like evidence that there is a subconscious that can be accessed through the conscious.




the body is probably much more capable than the conscious mind in conducting the affairs of the individual. case in point, an external stimulus grabs your attention, it is not your consciousness that release the appropriate hormones of adrenalin but an automated bodily process.

this automated process in more in tune with purpose then anything else.

the conscious often interferes with purpose!


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod] * 2
    #27008178 - 10/28/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

If we take it to Occam's Razor;

"Expansion of awareness is bringing the subconscious into the conscious."


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27008230 - 10/28/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I agree. I think we have our normal awareness, and when the parts of the brain-mind that have been occluded from the awareness join with that awareness, we have expanded consciousness. The mystical traditions and the psychedelic experience of course try to facilitate this.

But I sympathize with rgv's point a bit, because when we become aware of these processes, we find that they were occurring the whole time, with a subtle consciousness of their own. So there is no rigid line between conscious and subconscious, if we are inclined to separate them for the sake of convenience.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27008332 - 10/28/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
...
"Expansion of awareness is bringing the subconscious into the conscious."



this I think helps my case because it reveals that the more we are attentive to, the more we see of the totality of mind, and this includes central matters as well as fragments of sensation, and more peripheral ones, which are usually glossed over.

it is probably the glossing that suggests an interface, below and above the glossing over.

but this is also an illusion, since the degree of glossing is variable, (there is no precise indication that something is below or above what is normally glossed over for all people, or even for one person all the time - the glossing can be close to the central attention issues, or much further out (i.e. with more comprehensive awareness), such that those with great awareness seem to miss nothing, and those with low awareness live life under gloss, basically in the periphery of themselves.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27008385 - 10/28/20 01:21 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I don't know that it helps your argument. Perhaps it does, but for the exercise of the razor, you would have to describe the process of an expanding awareness more simply than the terminology we currently use which is pretty accurate.

Can you explain this:

"Expansion of awareness is bringing the subconscious into the conscious."

More simply without using the word subconscious and still retain the meaning?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27008509 - 10/28/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I agree. I think we have our normal awareness, and when the parts of the brain-mind that have been occluded from the awareness join with that awareness, we have expanded consciousness. The mystical traditions and the psychedelic experience of course try to facilitate this.

But I sympathize with rgv's point a bit, because when we become aware of these processes, we find that they were occurring the whole time, with a subtle consciousness of their own. So there is no rigid line between conscious and subconscious, if we are inclined to separate them for the sake of convenience.




Subconscious still seems like a good descriptor, because what is currently active in conscious is never all of the normally inactive subconscious at the same time. Could you imagine being aware of literally every working organ, and all your memories, as well as all your senses at the same moment in time? That would take quite an awareness. Even if you did become aware of all the knowns, there may still be unknowns hiding in the subconscious awaiting to be discovered, like controlling adrenaline, or oxytocin, or the inner fire of the celiac plexus, or even make some tcells with your thyroid.

Even when you know all of these, they still fade in and out of awareness and it takes a concerted effort to bring them into concious for as long as you can hold it into the focal point of awareness.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27008551 - 10/28/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
...
Can you explain this:

"Expansion of awareness is bringing the subconscious into the conscious."

More simply without using the word subconscious and still retain the meaning?




Expansion of awareness brings peripheral mental activity into everyday consciousness.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27008630 - 10/28/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
...
Even when you know all of these, they still fade in and out of awareness and it takes a concerted effort to bring them into concious for as long as you can hold it into the focal point of awareness.




I would like to reference a common phenomenon that may help illustrate what and why this happens.

Note the afterimage phenomenon, wherein if you look at an image for 20 seconds or so, and then close your eyes, you can see the same image in reversed colors.

This uncanny trick, if you did it on a computer (i.e. mix the flipped pixels with the original values), would provide a flat neutral gray image with tiny bits of sparkle in the 2-d area where movement occurred since the last positive frame was flipped to negative colors.

for vision we are constantly neutralizing the unchanging field (making an afterimage to cancel the field) so that where any changes are happening we become alerted to the event, and make that central (for eyes that means look at it directly and see it using the fovea or higher resolution part of the eye).

Vision allows us to see this neurophysiological process (inversion and cancelling of unchanging parts of the sensory/mental field) but it also suggests that this simple method that evolved to enable finding moving prey or moving predators in an unchanging field also works as we manage our daily life.

I believe that part of the brain (frontal cortex) is watching for sparkle and copying the sparkle field area to the central awareness staging area (pre-frontal cortex), from any sensory/memory cortical area that has relative sparkle/change in it, and it takes a profound effort to yoke this center stage to your will, or if you prefer to your practice of concentration, because distraction is reflex, and practice is resumption of focus in the midst of cognitive sparkles or distractions.

This neutralizing and normalizing brain reflex is also part of what keeps things subliminal.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27009162 - 10/28/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

teknix said:
...
Can you explain this:

"Expansion of awareness is bringing the subconscious into the conscious."

More simply without using the word subconscious and still retain the meaning?




Expansion of awareness brings peripheral mental activity into everyday consciousness.




Your description might be simpler, if you take into account the need to define subconscious in the given text, where-as your description doesn't need much more elaboration. I kinda like it, but just by being familiarized with the concept of the subconscious, pushes my bias towards those explanations when in consideration.

Seems arbitrary to try to fix what aint broke :P

It's simpler for me to side with that which I'm already familiar with, if all else is equal. If there is a profound realization (and/or defining of) the concept of conscious without the subconscious, that I'm missing, well, I'm missing it.


Edited by teknix (10/28/20 08:18 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27009200 - 10/28/20 08:24 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I guess that's why the established paradigms hold so much sway, familiarity breeds comfort.

Then again, the subconscious helps to eloquently describe the extent and potential of the conscious.


Edited by teknix (10/28/20 09:10 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27009579 - 10/29/20 02:36 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

The unconscious is what enables one to ride a bicycle without knowing what muscles are being used, -  what allows one to walk, to talk, it facilitates 90% of our behavior. One does not want this aspect of the unconscious to be conscious. This is not what psychedelics or enlightenment are about, no one wants to be fully aware, of all deep bodily processes being run and organized by the body / mind, besides the complexity makes such a notion impossible.
At another level dreaming occurs, and any meanings they may have.
With hypnosis other aspects of the unconscious mind may be explored.

Enlightenment is also frequently misunderstood. It does not make one one bit more intelligent, although lightening strikes on humans very rarely have given those they have not killed musical and mathematical talents.
Enlightenment also does not generally make one creative in a particularly noticeable way, or ensure a long healthy life.

A few Enlightenment experiences do not make one a perfectly moral person either.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Buddhist+scandals&t=h_&ia=web&iai=r1-2&page=1&adx=prdsdc&sexp=%7B%22relsexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22prodexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22prdsdexp%22%3A%22c%22%2C%22biaexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22direxp%22%3A%22b%22%7D

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Spiritual+%26+religious++scandals&t=h_&ia=web

Enlightenment relates to a few rather specific changes in awareness,
that relate to perception of self, & perception of interdependence and impermanence, and an overall equanimity as opposed to stress and anxiety. It usually takes years of continued practice to clear out  much residual garbage from the psyche.

Rockclimbing will also alter one's awareness. And it does this not by exploring the unconscious, or making it conscious, but by the dropping of distractions and returning fully to the present.

Likewise when youth experiences sex and love, it seems to change their whole world,
but the divorce rate and mental health statistics and child abuse statistics and family dysfunction statistics tell a very different story.

It seems almost nothing is what its 'cracked up to be'.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27009639 - 10/29/20 04:40 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

It seems RGV will use linguistics to argue subconscious isn't a thing and that will always be true depending on your perspective. We label things out of convenience, and to ease communication between individuals. We generally agree on the meanings of things to accomplish this.

One persons perspective the subconscious could be the little devil and angel on the shoulder
Another could see it as your heartbeat or liver enzymes
And further someone could view subconscious as how you make the sun rise every day or how you made a "big bang"
And of course someone could share RGV's viewpoint that there is no subconscious

So the real argument is where to agree or where to agree to disagree about what each individual in this thread feels like they define subconscious

Everyone's opinion is a real feeling based on their perspective. Subconscious is an abstract idea so everyone can be correct in that regard. Their experiences are true


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27009684 - 10/29/20 05:59 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

thanks for this summary, however, I have a reason to simplify the language:
if you understand my explanations, then you are not carrying mysterious suspicions forward in your thoughts and speech.
comments about the mind can be simpler, can be understandable and clear comments can be of huge value during a psychedelic trip.
moreover i present them here as they are essentially consistent psychedelic induced insights.

@laughingdog:
walking is not managed by a subconscious, it is a physical routine that has been learned by practice becoming a reflexive habit. It is something that can be done while talking or eating or carrying bags etc. It is managed by many different tissues in the brain, but it is not part of sleeping or being unconscious, and it is not less than or underneath anything else that the person may be involved with.

Reflexive habits are consciously accessed and monitored, but do not need to be micromanaged, because the component rhythms and motions fit easily and adjust easily to a path and to obstacles that may show up in an intended route.

Putting that into the same nebulous bag as a person's motivations, dreams, fears, likes etc. just makes everything clouded, and it seems absurd - no?.

that should be a clear reason to stop people from making what they say too hard for other people to understand. i.e. be specific and do not talk down. Be educative, share.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27009690 - 10/29/20 06:04 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

teknix said:
...
Can you explain this:

"Expansion of awareness is bringing the subconscious into the conscious."

More simply without using the word subconscious and still retain the meaning?




Expansion of awareness brings peripheral mental activity into everyday consciousness.




Your description might be simpler, if you take into account the need to define subconscious in the given text, where-as your description doesn't need much more elaboration. I kinda like it, but just by being familiarized with the concept of the subconscious, pushes my bias towards those explanations when in consideration.

Seems arbitrary to try to fix what aint broke :P

It's simpler for me to side with that which I'm already familiar with, if all else is equal. If there is a profound realization (and/or defining of) the concept of conscious without the subconscious, that I'm missing, well, I'm missing it.




well if you can understand the term and explain it (not in terms of itself) then as long as you say what you mean and mean what you say, there should be no problem.

in reality central and peripheral associations in consciousness lead to clarity of understanding of mind and mental contents.


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