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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27001300 - 10/24/20 01:53 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

what does subconscious mean to you?


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines] * 4
    #27001380 - 10/24/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

conscious awareness only processes a lesser portion of the stimulus that it captures -

the stimulus that is captured, but not processed by the conscious, is the subconscious.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27001440 - 10/24/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

That is a fantastic definition.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27001455 - 10/24/20 03:29 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
conscious awareness only processes a lesser portion of the stimulus that it captures -

the stimulus that is captured, but not processed by the conscious, is the subconscious.




although I think that the part that is conscious is the captured stimulus combined with all the strong associations. I think that habits of mental posturing and defensiveness make it appear that there is a separate place for "less important" things to be considered.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27001962 - 10/24/20 10:47 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

The assertion that there is no unconscious is just a false assertion. Like a flat earther's assertion it remains false despite apparent evidence which is based on superficial sensory experience, but in this instance it is a facile understanding of the psyche instead of a sensory deception. Perhaps a better understanding of the term unconscious would be helpful, like after reading Henri Ellenberger's The Discovery of the Unconscious. On the other hand If the assertions of a licensed and board certified fellow with over 31 years of experience in clinical hypnotherapy does not serve to alter a mere opinion, there is little point in thinking that the reading of a comprehensive phenomenological study of the subject will have any instructive efficacy. :lol: Forget the advanced seminars and years of personal analysis of my own unconscious by Zurich-trained analysts. It's only my avowed expertise here and I'm not going to disclose personal info nor out Shroomerites I've seen professionally.

The whole thing begs the question of why anyone would even bother to try to clarify anything on The Shroomery in the first place. Well, misinformation is a pet peeve of Vajra personalities which strive for clarity plus I've spent a lot of time on these forums and I like to leave someplace I've been visiting in better shape than when I first arrived. Promulgators of misinformation may not make changes in their errors but hopefully my small contributions can minimize fallout from ill-affecting other readers as apparently too many Shroomerites have already received mishandling by mental health practitioners. Sometimes it does behoove one to trust.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #27002263 - 10/25/20 06:37 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

sorry to upset you so much, but I agree that you have been an authority and a healer in the world where subconscious and unconscious are actual things rather than habituation and attitude.

our world is both stagnating and changing torrentially.
both at the same time.
if you only look at part of it as culture, then the other is considered subculture.
the habit for thousands of years is exclusionary. we are the good people and they are the strangers.

a more apt term for sensory subconscious is subliminality. this is the case where only some senses are considered (like vision while reading) and others 'ignored' like proprioception, which may be referred to as subliminal sensation.
less worthy of attention.

peripheral things, i.e. non central sensations, however, become part of memory as does the concentration effort, etc.
those peripheral things can be used to remember the incident, to link the memory with others similar, and to help solve problems after they are recalled.

they are not recalled from a different memory than all conscious memories, and they are not experienced by a different set of structures, they are just not central focus during the experiences.

generally speaking, people are quite ready to grasp at the 1/10th approach to hw we use our brain and show that the other 9/10ths is the subconscious, because that matches our sleep walking approach to life, and that is an approach of minimal awareness.

I assure you there is no line between what is clear and what is foggy, no line between conscious and subconscious in all these cases where attributions are made, just more central and more peripheral.

we have evolved to have foveas in our eyes, areas of higher sensitivity to detail dead center of each retina.  Vision is made up of all the visual input, both sharp and blurry.

at best this is the unconscious, that which is not clear, but it is all part of consciousness sliding through time on our individual life paths.

do not take it as a personal attack, I would still respect you if you were the pope or the dalai lama or Mark the Gnostic.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27002538 - 10/25/20 10:50 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

way way down the line there comes

an opportunity for making everything on the earth better

when you've living with maximal awareness this happens

it is a wonderful moment

you understand someone as it is and you understand it truthfully

and the wish and practice and doing of making everything on the earth better happens

at least you try to

the hit is there like a badminton hit

you may not hit inside of the court or make everything on the earth better

but it is a step in the right direction

after that you work on fields

individual fields

of people lives

and make small positive change

in the range of a millionparts of a gram of tobacco less in 20 years

the the making everything on the earth better comes together with making a field in someone's life better

and it goes from there

it snowballs

like the buddist idea of the wheel of helping others

maybe it is the same thig


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27003936 - 10/26/20 01:41 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Please do not presume. You have not upset me and I cannot see how my response would even suggest that. :shrug: There is permeability between 'layers,' of awareness reminiscent of one of those images of pours of multi-layered liquors of varying densities where blending occurs. What IS upsetting is having to turn away people from my hypnotherapy practice after they have sought such assistance, sometimes at the behest of their non-hypnotic therapist. There re a lot of practitioners in my area and many of them are spurious and less than ethical from what I've learned from individuals who saw them before seeing me. it is upsetting to turn trusting individuals  away out of fear of me and my wife contracting COVID-19. A friend of our's not far from us was just diagnosed last week. I work from home, my wife and I, both in our 60s are in a COVID-19 hotspot being in Miami. I cannot talk for 90+ minutes in a N95 mask and I need to read the micro-expressions on my subject's face so they cannot be masked. So, doing triage: OUR continued physical well-being is taking precedence over psychological-emotional health of others. I'm not gonna be either mercenary or a martyr, nor will I put my wife at risk. It feels selfish, but there it is. Want to see unconscious defense-mechanisms in action? Just observe the Trumpanzees denial of a clear and present danger congregating at their rallies.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #27004030 - 10/26/20 05:33 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

why are defense mechanisms unconscious? are they more unconscious than other defense mechanisms? is anything unconscious about them as opposed to merely reflex? is anything in the mind not reflex? is reflex other than association/response? is anything in mind not associative other than sensation?

this is where I am at.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27004053 - 10/26/20 06:09 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Aren't defence mechanisms about perceived threats?

And if so, then where do perceived threats lay within this web?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #27004169 - 10/26/20 08:39 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I look at perception as basic association, and that is a function of the mind and memory, and when mind and memory are working you have consciousness.
a perceived threat will link to FOF responses unless tranquility or tranquilizers prevail.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27004509 - 10/26/20 11:55 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

consciousness is not thought, consciousness is awareness.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27004548 - 10/26/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

how is awareness different from thought?


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27005002 - 10/26/20 04:41 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

the primary difference is, awareness is formulated prior to cognition.

awareness is not embodied by words.

awareness has more to do with the body than with the mind.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #27005067 - 10/26/20 05:14 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
.... I'm not gonna be either mercenary or a martyr, nor will I put my wife at risk. It feels selfish, but there it is. ....




So either do hypnosis via the internet-- skype or zoom or something similar
or
just do talk therapy with masks
or
retire 'early' (& write a book or whatever)

or mix it up depending on the client

not too many choices here


Edited by laughingdog (10/26/20 05:15 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27005338 - 10/26/20 08:30 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Online hypnosis? I'll take 12!

The reason it don't happen is the same reason religious healers don't work in hospitals and psychics don't win lotteries.

Because the leprechaun keeps moving his gold :mad2:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27005394 - 10/26/20 08:58 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
the primary difference is, awareness is formulated prior to cognition.

awareness is not embodied by words.

awareness has more to do with the body than with the mind.



thanks
will think on it


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27005614 - 10/27/20 01:39 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Can you be aware of stuff if you close your eyes?

Or at least, how is awareness different when you close your eyes?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27005777 - 10/27/20 06:48 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

as promised, here are my thoughts on your statements which are a great basic consideration but I think there is more to it (basically the importance of contact, openness, and change).

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
the primary difference is, awareness is formulated prior to cognition.

awareness is not embodied by words.

awareness has more to do with the body than with the mind.




1. awareness is formulated prior to cognition - not really, however, being present and aware in any circumstance relies on not being swamped by ideas that are out of synch with what is happening.
Not knowing where you are but being aware that you are there is possible if you are coming aware from being lost, or unconscious, otherwise, knowing where you are is part of awareness.

I know why you say this, as the freshness of sensation and the presence in the body are good indicators that your awareness is peaking versus your distractedness or dreaminess.

2. awareness is not embodied by words. - this is a general misconception. awareness is embodied by mental content. and that content can be verbal, sensory, flow or movement, even elaborate concepts, however awareness can also be dissipated in or swamped by such thought forms (as in obsession eg.) - awareness has more of a totality connection rather than a specific immersion. i.e. you can be aware of thought, words, sensations, feelings, movements or concentration, in passing, but awareness is more in the open quality of context and totality  than in the closed domain of a few words or ideas.

3. awareness has more to do with the body than with the mind - here also, I disagree, as awareness is 100% mind, however you are pointing at a great opportunity, which is to use the multichannel nature of one's body to achieve awareness - i.e. the body scan, the continua of sensations from body and posture, all along with other maters of concern and happenstance.  Again it is not just internal attention (mind or mind/body) but also external attention and a free flowing shift of mental reflection as local events (where is the body, what is the body doing) shift and stay the same.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #27005810 - 10/27/20 07:20 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

humans tend to trust information conveyed by the eyes above the data provided by other senses.  vision is a physiological process to direct attention, and when the eyes are open, estimates are that the eyes use 30-50% of brain processing power.  paying attention to something with the eyes is akin to a thought process in that it makes the brain's perceptive processes study the object of attention. 

but does perceptual organization really correspond with the nature of reality itself?  studies with various kinds of distortion goggles show that the brain can easily adapt to the new organizing information!  any visual signal is bound to be affected by how its received by the viewer’s sensory system.

when the eyes are closed, the brain is freed from the need to organize visual data to correspond with reality.  when the eyes are no longer thinking, data can be assimilated that allows for greater communication across the senses.  i would say i have much more awareness when my eyes are closed, because i can see with my eyes closed!  i sustained a traumatic brain injury in 2010 that caused the loss of part of my vision, so i am used to not being able to rely on my eyes to "see" the world.

see blindsight -
Quote:

Blindsight challenges the common belief that perceptions must enter consciousness to affect our behavior; showing that our behavior can be guided by sensory information of which we have no conscious awareness.




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