Home | Community | Message Board

Cannabis Seeds - Original Sensible Seeds
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   North Spore Injection Grain Bag

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Offlinesporecap
Shedding...

Registered: 07/30/18
Posts: 413
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Community Experiments and Projects Thread [Re: D3_Myc] * 6
    #27017287 - 11/02/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Influence of agar stiffness and nutrition on mcyelium


Background:
I am currently unhappy with my current agar recipe. Tomentose mycelium and 'translucent' growth is more prevalent than rhyzomorphic. Also there has been an ongoing discussion since the beginning of time what actually causes mycelium on agar plates to grow either rhyzomorphic or tomentose, complicated by the fact that the mycelium seemingly can change from one form into the other by transferring it into a new plate even when using the same agar recipe. The common opinion seems to be that a lower concentration of nutrients will favor rhyzomorphic growth, while a higher amount tomentose. One of the arguments is that in plates with less nutrition the mycelium will grow quicker and more vigorous in search of food. 
This scenario has been challenged in the past by investigations like these:
[Rizo & Tomentose] vs [Weak & Strong Plates] vs [Soft & Hard] pucks
where the opposite was reported: The higher the amount of nutrients, the more rhyzomorphic and faster the culture was growing.
Rhyzomorphic growth is regularly reported when a culture hits the edge of the plate and growths up the side of the petri dish, where it often changes from previously tomentose on agar to rhyzomorphic on the plastic. This observation can support the less nutrition=more rhyzomorphic theory. On the other hand, one often observes that a culture when transferred to grain shows strong rhyzomorphic growth, even when it did not on agar, which would support the opposite more nutrition=more rhyzomorphic theory. Motivated by these issues and conflicting reports & theories I started my own investigation with different agar recipes.

Hypothesis:
My hypothesis is actually different from the two common ones: I propose that rhyzomorphic growth is mostly triggered by the stiffness of agar, i.e. how far it can penetrate the medium. The softer the agar, the more it will show tomentose growth, while the stiffer the agar, the more it will be rhyzomorphic. My theory is that the tomentose growth is some kind of overlay that develops on the surface when the mycelium is actually growing through a medium like agar. If penetration is reduced by an increased hardness of the agar, it stays mostly on the surface and forms rhyzomorphic growth.

This theory was inspired by an observation when I scratched the surface of different mycelium. Below the tomentose myc below the agar surface there was a milky/dull layer where the myeclium had obviously grown into the agar. This layer could often be less than 1 milimeter, but sometimes stretched through the full width of the agar puck. To exclude that this layer could be some kind of bacterial contamination I transferred a tiny piece from this region below the surface and it grew out into healthy normal looking mycelium.

On the other hand, for most rhyzomorphic mycelium such a layer was almost nonexistent. This theory would also be consistent with the reports of agar climbing the sides of the petri dish and rhyzomorphic growth on grains, since both allow for less penetration than agar. Low nutrients could also discourage the mycelium from growing into the agar, essentially mimicking this effect.
The observation in the thread above (more nutrients=more rhyzo) are still challening. Maybe the increase in nutrients also led to a stiffer agar.
Therefore, the time has come for another systematic investigation.:takingnotes:

Experiment:
The experiment consists of using different agar recipes with different amount of nutrients and stiffness. I will be using grain water agar that can be diluted to change the amounts of nutrients.
The current samples are:
  • 100% grain water , 2.0% agar
  • 100% grain water , 2.5% agar
  • 100% grain water , 3.0% agar
  • 50% grain water , 2.0% agar
  • 50% grain water , 2.5% agar
  • 50% grain water , 3.0% agar
  • 25% grain water , 2.0% agar



After pouring plates hey will be inocculated with a multispore culture and a clone (both cubensis).
Right now I am PC'ing the agar, so the experiment has just started.

*** Update 10.Nov.2020 ***

It's now day 4 since the first batch of plates has been inocculated. I took small transfers from a MS x7x plate which looked clean an showed neither pronounced rhizomorphic or tomentose growth. So far no clear differentiation is visible between the different plates. Will update in a few days again.


I started another batch with a GT clone, and a Natalensis/Natal MS, which are two days behind, so they will also show up in the next update.


Edited by sporecap (11/10/20 01:10 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleD3_Myc
Weeb Trash
I'm a teapot


Registered: 05/06/18
Posts: 4,399
Loc: Year Zero
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Community Experiments and Projects Thread [Re: sporecap]
    #27018372 - 11/02/20 09:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Awesome thanks for sharing.

Another viewpoint with same conclusion is increased agar rigidity means less nutrients are bio-available as the mycelium has a harder time penetrating the media in search of food and instead spreads out seeking the meager amount of nutrients that are made bio-available along the mediums surface.

I look forward to seeing your results.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSingularFusion
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 10/31/18
Posts: 1,208
Last seen: 8 hours, 5 minutes
Re: Community Experiments and Projects Thread [Re: sporecap]
    #27018399 - 11/02/20 09:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

:takingnotes:


--------------------
πŸ…ƒ πŸ„΄ πŸ„° πŸ„Ό    πŸ„² πŸ„» πŸ„Έ πŸ„½ πŸ„Ά πŸ…† πŸ… πŸ„° πŸ„Ώ


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSandro
Stranger
Registered: 03/03/20
Posts: 1
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Community Experiments and Projects Thread [Re: SingularFusion] * 1
    #27025849 - 11/06/20 10:48 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

So interesting, thanks for sharing!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepsillyboy
Florida man
 User Gallery


Registered: 09/26/14
Posts: 581
Loc: In the 60's
Last seen: 1 month, 24 days
Re: Community Experiments and Projects Thread [Re: Sandro]
    #27026808 - 11/07/20 01:00 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
"True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country - K. Vonnegut

β€œThe real truth, that dare not speak itself, is that no one is in control. Absolutely no one.” ― Terence McKenna

"LSD is a psychedelic drug which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people who have never taken it." - Timothy Leary


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinesporecap
Shedding...

Registered: 07/30/18
Posts: 413
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Community Experiments and Projects Thread [Re: psillyboy]
    #27031623 - 11/10/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Updated post #27017287


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineChurchill_85
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/29/20
Posts: 53
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Community Experiments and Projects Thread [Re: sporecap]
    #27031853 - 11/10/20 03:37 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Nice experiment


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinenmd_myco
Obsessed Noob
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/20
Posts: 198
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Community Experiments and Projects Thread [Re: sporecap]
    #27037098 - 11/13/20 01:38 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sporecap said:


It's now day 4 since the first batch of plates has been inocculated. I took small transfers from a MS x7x plate which looked clean an showed neither pronounced rhizomorphic or tomentose growth. So far no clear differentiation is visible between the different plates. Will update in a few days again.


I started another batch with a GT clone, and a Natalensis/Natal MS, which are two days behind, so they will also show up in the next update.




seems like the clone is a better candidate for a comparison as transfers from a multispore plate are going to give you pretty random samples.

i have been led to believe the opposite about rhizo growth stemming from more nutrients.  Been cutting back nutes batch by batch in my agar going for that rhizo growth.

very interested to see the progress.

d3: did you ever calrify the exact amnount of charcoal in your agar?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleD3_Myc
Weeb Trash
I'm a teapot


Registered: 05/06/18
Posts: 4,399
Loc: Year Zero
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Community Experiments and Projects Thread [Re: nmd_myco]
    #27037318 - 11/13/20 04:01 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I don’t believe it did, I typically don’t measure it but ~1g charcoal powder to 100ml is roughly what I average.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblec10h12n2o
serial dilutor
 User Gallery


Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
Re: Community Experiments and Projects Thread [Re: D3_Myc]
    #27087614 - 12/13/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

great thread buddy!!

i been using the exact same food coloring as D3monic and noticed the same stunted growth on the magenta/red/purple mixes

oddly enough, it doesnt always happen, but it does happen often enough to notice the pattern. amazing cultures would sometimes just look like shit for no reason, and pan myc would often just stop growing halfway through the plate

imma give this charcoal stuff a try, looks sexy. D3monic is a trendsetter with agar fashion haha


--------------------

C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide


"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblealaskappalachian
Entitiologist


Registered: 10/22/19
Posts: 1,674
Loc: The 49th Dimension
Re: Community Experiments and Projects Thread [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #27087701 - 12/13/20 06:07 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Nice seeing more confirmation of this.  Since I stopped using red, I stopped having any of the weird issues.  Blue and black ftw.  I was looking back through old notes the other day and came upon the first time I had ever had a coloring related issue.  At one point I thought fuck it and used a drop of black tattoo ink (I am aware they aren't the same thing, for the record...) because I was bored (had a bottle I was unlikely to use again), and it made for great coloring and my plates showed totally normal growth.  Me being a cheap ass, I was content to use it up.  Did that twice all was well.  The third time I accidentally squirted like 3 or 4 drops in there and bam: weak growth,  translucent growth,  etc across a couple dozen plates.  Transferred to a new round with just a drop and everything was kosher again.  I genuinely think it's a threshold issue,  but it definitely seems to be a thing.  Getting used to all blue plates and now I kind of dig it.  1-2 drops for 500ml and no issues at all.  I went once to test the threshold theory with blue and growth looked weaker and was slower, but with red it would have been potato.


--------------------


"First we build the tools, then they build us."

THE 49th MYCOJOURNAL: Exotics, Auroras, and Entities


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebw86
Doesn't play well with others


Registered: 11/12/06
Posts: 5,937
Loc: 7b
Last seen: 23 hours, 2 minutes
Trusted Cultivator
Community Experiments and Projects Thread [Re: alaskappalachian]
    #27087743 - 12/13/20 06:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Multi Isolate cocktail
Almost identical to mixing MS from multiple varieties with similar outcome just with an extremely limited gene pool.
Not a crossing attempt.No reason to believe it will increase production in any way. I just really want to see all them crossing swords.
My plan is to add a quarter wedge from each culture into one pint. Then G2G with that pint. Would anyone take a different approach? I urge anyone with 3 or more distinct isolates/clones to give it a try. It does not need to be PE varieties but they should be distinct ISO/clones.
At the moment I have these three cocks that are distinct enough.
Ape clone,Melmek clone,Penis envy clone (Boner cloner). I have Lpeu swabs so eventually this will be in the mix but a clone is important so it will take time.Also have my fingers crossed that ill get my hands on that Toc Cock.wink wink :blush:
I have toyed with the idea before but untimely decided it was a waste of time. Now i will just do it for the hell of it.

-Pointless waste of time.
-Potential way to get diverse yet controlled grows.
-Decreased efficiency from known cultures.
What are your thoughts?

A small list of "projects Ill totally do one day


Edited by bw86 (12/13/20 06:49 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetututotutut
You...! You're not me!
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/18/21
Posts: 2,218
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Community Experiments and Projects Thread πŸ”¬ [Re: D3_Myc]
    #27188029 - 02/05/21 01:17 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

This needs to be a sticky or something, noob here started w red agar last year and was wondering wtf ingredient was killing my stuff (yeah we actually did manage to get a resistant collection going, its slow)


PastyWhite uses it in his agar tek and that's the noob go-to, it at least needs to be noted there in bold somewhere


--------------------
yeah keep telling yourself that's voluntary


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   North Spore Injection Grain Bag


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Heres my project to start soon.... Rabbitt 1,114 16 12/11/02 12:07 AM
by Anonymous
* Cool potato trick (Experiment results with photos) *DELETED* Ainasko 1,453 16 06/01/03 04:12 PM
by Roadkill
* Another failed experiment Ainasko 1,620 9 05/21/03 03:44 PM
by Ainasko
* First time myco experiment... seeking experienced advice OmegaRed 870 5 04/16/03 03:05 PM
by SixCee
* The OFFICIAL Stone producer/sclerotia thread and discussion
( 1 2 3 4 ... 647 648 )
firstTIMER420 467,849 12,957 01/28/24 05:01 PM
by 6The6Despised6One
* Steaming PF jars water concentration experiment Redoc 590 2 09/15/03 12:17 PM
by Redoc
* Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread
( 1 2 3 4 ... 1590 1591 )
Fantastic Mr. Fox 923,826 31,810 01/28/24 06:33 AM
by tregar
* Official Misc EXOTIC Thread
( 1 2 3 4 ... 132 133 )
Jakeoncid419 109,906 2,641 01/27/24 01:42 PM
by rhizoRider

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Shroomism, george castanza, RogerRabbit, veggie, mushboy, fahtster, LogicaL Chaos, 13shrooms, Stipe-n Cap, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta, Tormato, Land Trout, A.k.a
3,430 topic views. 38 members, 196 guests and 35 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.025 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 12 queries.