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OfflineKurterino
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What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me...
    #27000680 - 10/24/20 12:04 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'm pretty new to mushroom cultivation (and to this forum), and I have a few successful harvests under my belt (not great ones, but good ones), but there's one thing I still don't quite get: Why is it so "bad" to inoculate grain jars directly with a spore syringe? I've read a lot about agar and even gave it a try and it failed (I know it's a good technique and that I must have done something wrong), so I just went back to spore to grain, it's so much simpler, and it hasn't failed my once, over more than a dozen jars. (I know, small sample size, but as long as it works, why worry?)
Granted, both of my spore syringes came from a reputable shop in Amsterdam, and now I've made one myself, so is the problem with spore to grain that a lot of spore syringes are not very good quality (i.e. containing contaminations, or not a lot of spores)? For me, the procedure is so easy and has been successful every time so far, can someone give me a good reason why it's "bad"?

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OfflineSingularFusion
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: Kurterino]
    #27000689 - 10/24/20 12:13 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

''is the problem with spore to grain that a lot of spore syringes are not very good quality (i.e. containing contaminations, or not a lot of spores)?''

yes that's it pretty much

but it's more to do with the nature of things in general and not the skill of the vendor as much, although I'm sure being skilled doesn't hurt anything

no print is really 100% clean (because you don't fruit mush in sterile conditions) so therefore no syringe made from any print is 100% clean either

so far you have won the lottery, eventually your luck will dry up. Agar is the solution to all of that and having consistent cultures and the canopies you see around

good times


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Offlinegt40
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: SingularFusion]
    #27000730 - 10/24/20 01:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

it's interesting topic.
Recently on a very well known spore vendor page I catched the info that 99% times you see contams on agar you don't get it with same print if inoculated directly to grain. They claim that agar dish is bad place to fight contams (and often you get contamination on agar because of agar, not because of bad spores) meanwhile the grain is different in that sense.

It's really sounds like statement because here everyone knowes that you should start from agar to clean things up, but can that necessity is overrated? I don't know but in the past I did plenty of good growes with direct spores inoculation and had a lot of issues with clean agar plates during this year. For example first grow in my sig was made from agar and second without.
So possible we shouldn't be too dogmatic with that and need to test it more.

Edited by gt40 (10/24/20 01:49 AM)

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Offlinepureshrooming
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: SingularFusion]
    #27000736 - 10/24/20 01:47 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I only failed once with spores to grain and when I started I did a ton of it but once I learned agar it was a game changer. Even taking out the fact that spores to grain is a roll of the dice, using agar opens so many options for you; LC, LI, cloning..etc Just one drop from a spore syringe on agar can be expanded beyond what most people would ever use. Far more efficient than having to knock up each jar with a squirt of spores that you are pretty certain will work but definitely not for sure.

Learning agar is worth it. It took my a couple months of failure in a sab to finally get it down and so many times I had the argument in my head about how I didn't fail this much with spores. I mean this in the most unpretentious way possible, if you are just doing spores to grain, you aren't really learning to grow mushrooms.

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OfflineForresterM
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: gt40] * 1
    #27000791 - 10/24/20 04:03 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

gt40 said:
Recently on a very well known spore vendor page I catched the info that 99% times you see contams on agar you don't get it with same print if inoculated directly to grain. They claim that agar dish is bad place to fight contams (and often you get contamination on agar because of agar, not because of bad spores) meanwhile the grain is different in that sense.





Just to clarify, this is absolute bullshit.

Given the clear motive of a SPORE VENDOR saying this, it's not difficult to see why they would made such nonsense statements... :rolleyes:


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.

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OfflineForresterM
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: Forrester]
    #27000792 - 10/24/20 04:07 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

To answer the original question - spore prints are not sterile.  It's that simple.

You cut the cap off a mushroom and put it on foil - unless you grow the whole mushroom in a sterile environment (not a clean environment, a sterile environment) ie; a flowhood, your print is not sterile and there will be bacteria and or mold spores hiding in there somewhere. 

There's just no feasible way to make sterile spore prints, so therefor no sterile spore syringes.

You can have lots of success with them because mycelium is generally good at fighting off contaminants like bacteria, but sometimes it loses.

But for reliable success, that's why we clean the culture using agar.

Hope this helps :smile:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.

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Invisiblecoversall
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: Forrester]
    #27000810 - 10/24/20 04:59 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Am I right in thinking that BRF cakes are more contam resistant than grains? Therefore more suitable for MS? Or is this a half remembered fact?

And if BRF cakes _are_ more contam resistant, why?


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..:: E V E R Y  ::..

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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: coversall]
    #27000827 - 10/24/20 05:57 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah bacteria has trouble moving through the brf mix.

I did about 20 jars of wbs from syringe and never lost one when I started but itโ€™s all about getting the syringes from a place that has the right stuff to make them. Otherwise youโ€™re just sterilizing grain and then injecting contams back into it and hoping the myc outruns them.


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LAGM2020

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #27000872 - 10/24/20 07:08 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

gt40 said:
Recently on a very well known spore vendor page I catched the info that 99% times you see contams on agar you don't get it with same print if inoculated directly to grain. They claim that agar dish is bad place to fight contams (and often you get contamination on agar because of agar, not because of bad spores) meanwhile the grain is different in that sense.





Just to clarify, this is absolute bullshit.

Given the clear motive of a SPORE VENDOR saying this, it's not difficult to see why they would made such nonsense statements... :rolleyes:



Yea no shit. Only a noob would fall for that shit. And that's exactly what they're hoping for.

Reading that on a website that sells spores is a instant red flag that you don't want to buy their subpar shit

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Offlinegt40
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27001441 - 10/24/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Okay, I don't argue but I don't think it vendor's trick. Simply because if they sell bad material it will run bad with any grow method.

The quote just to be clear:
"Spore syringes really arenโ€™t good for using agar. Some times they will show bacteria on agar, yet when you put them directly to grain there is no signs of bacteria. On agar, the mushroom mycelium can not compete against the trace amounts of bacteria. But once put directly to grain, the mycelium easily outcompetes the trace amounts of bacteria and grows on the healthy mycelium. We learned this from Paul Stamets, one of the greatest mycologist of our generation. Because of this we donโ€™t recommend using spore syringes on agar, unless you happen to be using gentamicin sulfate antibiotic powder. We use gentamicin in our agar for testing spore syringes. So our test batches will not show bacteria. Yours might show bacteria on agar if youโ€™re not using gentamicin.
...
Most of the problems in this hobby come from the substrate itself, not the spore syringes. If molds or bacteria are present in the grains and water from the spore syringe is added, itโ€™s going to accelerate the contamination process. This does not mean the mold or bacteria came from the spore syringe itself. We spend a lot of time testing our spore solution before each small batch of spore syringes is made. Itโ€™s a big waste of time and money for us if we send out spore syringes that are contaminated. We throw that solution out and take the loss. We are only making spore syringes from batches that went through a 3 week testing process and did pass on agar with gentamicin. If the mycelium looks healthy and vigorous on our agar, itโ€™s going to do great on properly prepared grain.

These days more and more people are using agar for strain isolation but most people still want to use spore syringes on agar instead of spore prints. Again I remind you, any spore syringe that might show bacteria on agar will 99% of the time not show bacteria when put directly to grain."

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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: gt40] * 1
    #27001460 - 10/24/20 03:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah but that obviously doesnโ€™t make sense. If bacteria shows up on agar then itโ€™s in the syringe. Theyโ€™re basically saying if you canโ€™t see it then it doesnโ€™t matter which isnโ€™t true. Unless you subscribe to an ignorance is bliss philosophy.

The whole point of agar is to reveal contams and get rid of them.

They should amend that statement to โ€œ99% of people canโ€™t identify bacterial grain spawn so were gonna claim itโ€™s not our syringeโ€.

Idk why theyโ€™re tripping so much anyway, anybody who knows what theyโ€™re doing will expect contams from spore whether itโ€™s syringe or print.

Plus you can easily disprove the stuff about the contams being in the grain and activated by water by putting sterile water on the agar or grains. Really the statement about agar having bacteria on it already is just shockingly ignorant for a spore business. Youโ€™d have to have zero knowledge about agar to say or believe that.


--------------------
LAGM2020

Edited by A.k.a (10/24/20 03:51 PM)

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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: A.k.a]
    #27001501 - 10/24/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

not great ones, but good ones




There you go. I believe your answer was in your question.... kind of. One can absolutely get rainbows out of bacterial spawn. We've all done it. But no one that wants to reliably harvest rainbows wants to go through the work to maybe get a half ass harvest. We put spores to agar so that we can clean it if needed and then put MYC AND ONLY MYC into sterile spawn.

Also, the line that says it'll contam "because of the agar" is fucking horse shit. It's just easier to see on agar. New eyes have a hard time telling clean spawn from kind of clean spawn. It's generally pretty obvious on agar though. Although sometimes shit hides on agar too.

Sorry, i may have presupposed something earlier. That being that you understand that bacterial spawn can still produce but often dramatically cuts down on yield.

Edited by verum subsequentis (10/24/20 04:06 PM)

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OfflineMyco Extremist
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: Kurterino]
    #27002100 - 10/25/20 01:56 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Once it stops working for you, you will understand.

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OfflineKurterino
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: Myco Extremist]
    #27002578 - 10/25/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Very interesting answers, this is indeed very helpful.

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InvisibleJHOVA
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: Kurterino]
    #27002594 - 10/25/20 11:45 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

If the context of this vendor is cakes they are right. It really doesnt matter if the syringe has bacteria on cakes, only mold. Probably most people who are buying syringes are making cakes not ss to agar or directly to grain.

That is some shit saying agar causes contams:lmafo:


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OfflineDnDRnD
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: Forrester]
    #27002604 - 10/25/20 11:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
To answer the original question - spore prints are not sterile.  It's that simple.

You cut the cap off a mushroom and put it on foil - unless you grow the whole mushroom in a sterile environment (not a clean environment, a sterile environment) ie; a flowhood, your print is not sterile and there will be bacteria and or mold spores hiding in there somewhere. 

There's just no feasible way to make sterile spore prints, so therefor no sterile spore syringes.

You can have lots of success with them because mycelium is generally good at fighting off contaminants like bacteria, but sometimes it loses.

But for reliable success, that's why we clean the culture using agar.

Hope this helps :smile:




When you say theres no feasible way to make sterile spore prints I'm curious, if you fruit In-vitro so its never exposed to the open air couldn't you just then print them in front of flow hood for sterility?

Excuse my ignorance if that's not feasible :shrug: just a stoned thought


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Oat Prep Tek
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Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: DnDRnD]
    #27002873 - 10/25/20 02:32 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

You are correct. If the proper precautions are taken, one can reasonably assume the have sterile prints. I've taken the time to procure sterile spores and it takes a bit of doing. I seriously doubt any major vendors are doing that.

I was doing a grow along with a bunch of noobs and wanted them to have the best chance of success so i grew a bunch of invitro fruits and swabbed them in the flow.

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OfflineForresterM
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: DnDRnD]
    #27002884 - 10/25/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DnDRnD said:
When you say theres no feasible way to make sterile spore prints I'm curious, if you fruit In-vitro so its never exposed to the open air couldn't you just then print them in front of flow hood for sterility?

Excuse my ignorance if that's not feasible :shrug: just a stoned thought




I'm sure there's a lot of ways it's possible to get a sterile print, I just said not feasible for most spore vendors.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.

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OfflineDnDRnD
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #27002886 - 10/25/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

That makes sense, I agree I highly doubt any vendors do that

I was more just curious if it would work :shrug: that was probably bad of me to bring up though cause now somebodies gonna see that and just assume that's how they're made


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Oat Prep Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24126032

Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

Shaperdreamings Shoebox Assembly Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662

Down with the bourgeoisie and up with the proletariat

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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: What's the deal with spores to grain? It works for me... [Re: DnDRnD]
    #27002976 - 10/25/20 03:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

nah. It's fine

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