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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: laughingdog]
    #26994842 - 10/20/20 03:44 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
even if it is not that kind of question,
and as an answer, 'no' seems more right than 'yes' does.




I am quite open to the possibility, but I would agree with you that 'no' seems more right.
But I still think it's a perspective that is worth examining.
Have you looked at the simulation argument from Nick Boström, which I previously posted?


Quote:

laughingdog said:
So it seems you, Malkuthian, find the simulation question interesting, while I find life to already be much wilder or freaky than the question, and thus the question less interesting, and I have no problem with this.



The way I see it you raise questions/ideas that one might argue are more intriguing, but I don't see the reason to deny "inferior ideas" just because "superior ideas" exist.

I don't quite understand the dichotomy which is created when you compare the ideas to each other. Yea, sure, life is already "wilder", so why not allow it to be even more freaky, by adding yet another unknown :wink:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Malkuthian] * 1
    #26995016 - 10/20/20 05:23 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I did not watch the video, I miss a lot of culture that does not come in books or comic books (preferably) or text and image combinations.

video to me is a bit like driving, you have to sit there and watch it play out. (alright I am waiting for the new Star Trek: Discovery, but that is not talking heads)

I really do not like driving, or watching talking heads if I can read their dialog offline.

with reading you can scan quickly and focus on interesting things.

especially with talking heads, just give me a transcript, please.


Quote:

Malkuthian said:
It's perhaps a little of topic but I think that this could be of interest:


There is a scientist (Nick Boström) who has written what he calls the simulation argument, which says somethin along the lines of this:

There are 3 possible futures:
1. Humanity will die before we make detailed simulations of our evolution
2. Humanity will choose to not make detailed simulations of our evolution
3. Humanity will choose to make detailed simulations of our evolution


If 3 is our future, then we can assume that we wont run 1 simulation, but endless simulations to get statistical accuracy, and test various parameters. And if each simulation will contain a "copy" of our world, the number of simulated individuals, and simulated worlds, will be A LOT more than the actual world (1).

Thereby implying that if 3 is correct, the odds are vastly in favor of us living in a simulation. :wink:

There is actually a Joe Rogan Episide with Nick Boström were this is discussed:






Some other links:
https://www.simulation-argument.com
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis




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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26995302 - 10/20/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Re Malkuthian

.  Another aspect is that many folks wives fake orgasm & the guys are better off not knowing...
.  Likewise if one bothers looking up the statistics most everyone tells a lot of lies every day, and thus many are constantly deceived.

.  Basically my view is that the whole question assumes that there is some possibility of knowing more about some one stable agreed upon 'reality', that is useful, on an everyday level. I doubt this, on many grounds. Of course those with a religiously  oriented mindset, will hate this view.
.  Meditation which is scientifically and medically proven to reduce stress, does not rely, on intellectual sophistry, which I consider this question to be an example of.
.  So I think there are better ways to spend ones time. I say this to share my viewpoint, not to sell a position. To each their own. Personally I like to question assumptions.


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26995664 - 10/21/20 02:59 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I did not watch the video, I miss a lot of culture that does not come in books or comic books (preferably) or text and image combinations.

video to me is a bit like driving, you have to sit there and watch it play out. (alright I am waiting for the new Star Trek: Discovery, but that is not talking heads)

I really do not like driving, or watching talking heads if I can read their dialog offline.

with reading you can scan quickly and focus on interesting things.

especially with talking heads, just give me a transcript, please.





I did link the official webpage from the scientist as well, for those more prone to reading:
Simulation Argument Report- PDF
Published in Philosophical Quarterly(2003)Vol.53,No.211,pp.243‐255.(First version:2001)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Malkuthian]
    #26995780 - 10/21/20 06:04 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Half way through the first part I think that he is right to suggest that the potential to simulate or achieve consciousness using advanced computing techniques is in a likely future reality.  This would enable a fabricated creature like DATA to be an officer on a starship. Which brings us back to science fiction scenarios, and that is what this one is, purposefully dry science fiction with it's own formula posturing to join the ranks of ready to be peer reviewed science.

the summary is reasonable in the constraints of the proposition but not as a general belief system:
Quote:

If (1) is true, then we will almost certainly go extinct before reaching
posthumanity. If (2) is true, then there must be a strong convergence among the
courses of advanced civilizations so that virtually none contains any relatively
wealthy individuals who desire to run ancestor‐simulations and are free to do so.
If (3) is true, then we almost certainly live in a simulation. In the dark forest of
our current ignorance, it seems sensible to apportion one’s credence roughly
evenly between (1), (2), and (3).
Unless we are now living in a simulation, our descendants will almost
certainly never run an ancestor‐simulation.





so it is a more unlikely thing than likely that we are in a simulation, unless we are in a simulation. (which is to say, probably not, and there is a lot we do not know.)
his is a proof of "no" more than "yes", though it seems to lend credence to yes for those that do want to believe.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Warrk]
    #26996078 - 10/21/20 10:12 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I just started playing the podcast. On the subject of entities, I had a recurring closed eye hallucination when I used shrooms in the past. With my eyes closed, I would see a crowd of brown animated corpses. They looked frightening, but I was not frightened. Those corpses which the gaze of my mind's eye fell upon would reach straight towards me. The corpses adjacent to them would partially reach. The rest would have their arms at their sides. As I shifted the gaze of my mind's eye, the arms of those my gaze fell upon would stretch their arms towards me. The others would drop their arms. They made no other movements and were unresponsive to my attempts to communicate. But sure enough, minutes later, if I closed my eyes again, there they were, always with that same behavior. It recurred once or twice on other occasions, identically.
What strikes me as unusual was the consistency of the look and behavior of this hallucination. Why corpses? Why reaching when gazed upon? Why no other behavior? Why didn't their appearance ever shift and evolve into different imagery, like most CEV's? Why did it persist so constantly, over the course of multiple mushroom experiences?
...Ah, he is on the topic of hemisync. I used to have that on my old iPod.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: RedNucleus]
    #26996267 - 10/21/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

maybe you are fascinated with zombie films:


as long as people keep buying it they will keep making it.

and that goes for simulation scams as well.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26996832 - 10/21/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Re: Warrk  & Theory of Everything , Malkuthian and Co.

Considering the number of people that believe in religions that contradict one another
and
the number of people that go to war, and spend the rest of their lives handicapped, because they thought they were patriots, in a war politicians, and weapons manufacturers cooked up
(for just 2 examples),
the idea that a simulated reality (as in the Movie: 'The Matrix')
is shocking because it undermines what would otherwise be a firm grasp of 'reality' seems a bit lame to say the least.

Beyond religion and war, a large number of cultures have different versions, of conditioning people to pay attention to what is considered important in the world.
Then we have a cornucopia of defense mechanisms, and all the psychological abnormalities, and inner conflicts, etc.
So again the idea that our firm grasp of reality is being undermined by its being a simulation is really just a disguised way of flattering ourselves, that we really have a handle on things. IMO
Those who are in prison are those who got caught,
perhaps the same is true for those in the 'nut house'.

If tomorrow they said the big bang theory or the simulation theory was correct, it would make absolutely no difference to all the human follies and sufferings or pun lovers. IMO


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: laughingdog]
    #26997592 - 10/22/20 09:29 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Re Malkuthian

.  Another aspect is that many folks wives fake orgasm & the guys are better off not knowing...
.  Likewise if one bothers looking up the statistics most everyone tells a lot of lies every day, and thus many are constantly deceived.

.  Basically my view is that the whole question assumes that there is some possibility of knowing more about some one stable agreed upon 'reality', that is useful, on an everyday level. I doubt this, on many grounds. Of course those with a religiously  oriented mindset, will hate this view.
.  Meditation which is scientifically and medically proven to reduce stress, does not rely, on intellectual sophistry, which I consider this question to be an example of.
.  So I think there are better ways to spend ones time. I say this to share my viewpoint, not to sell a position. To each their own. Personally I like to question assumptions.




Quote:

laughingdog said:
Re: Warrk  & Theory of Everything , Malkuthian and Co.

Considering the number of people that believe in religions that contradict one another
and
the number of people that go to war, and spend the rest of their lives handicapped, because they thought they were patriots, in a war politicians, and weapons manufacturers cooked up
(for just 2 examples),
the idea that a simulated reality (as in the Movie: 'The Matrix')
is shocking because it undermines what would otherwise be a firm grasp of 'reality' seems a bit lame to say the least.

Beyond religion and war, a large number of cultures have different versions, of conditioning people to pay attention to what is considered important in the world.
Then we have a cornucopia of defense mechanisms, and all the psychological abnormalities, and inner conflicts, etc.
So again the idea that our firm grasp of reality is being undermined by its being a simulation is really just a disguised way of flattering ourselves, that we really have a handle on things. IMO
Those who are in prison are those who got caught,
perhaps the same is true for those in the 'nut house'.

If tomorrow they said the big bang theory or the simulation theory was correct, it would make absolutely no difference to all the human follies and sufferings or pun lovers. IMO




I'm not sure why this is addressed to me.
I'm 100% with you on the idea that knowing is pointless. I'm not advocating anything here really.
First of all I don't even believe in the idea that we are living in a simulation, secondly I don't think it's important if we are of if we aren't.  But it is interesting to realize that this existence actually could be a simulation, which I think is the whole point of Nick Boströms "simulation Argument". I don't need to dig any further than that. The mere possibility makes the concept fairly interesting to discuss.

"So I think there are better ways to spend ones time"
Better ways than what? What are you referring to with this? Which ever belief you have regarding this, why would it take up your time, except for discussing it here? If that's is the time you are referring to, then why are you discussing the matter? I don't understand where you are going with this.


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26997594 - 10/22/20 09:31 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
and that goes for simulation scams as well.



What scam are you talking about?
You don't believe it is possible this is a simulation, believing that it is possible is a scam?
I don't follow.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Malkuthian]
    #26997618 - 10/22/20 09:45 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I am talking about the capacity to run with a meme.
the simulated universe is a meme, but it has the character of a scam, which subtends from partially understood quantum mechanics which is also a meme, one that has several conundrums embedded within it, all scientific concepts that are largely beyond the mental refinement of most of the people who bandy about the ideas of the observer effect, entanglement, and multiverses.

in the same way that business scams consume your money and provide no real goods, these intellectual scams consume our attention but leave us in the dust holding onto mere handles that mean nothing.  That is what the concept of simulated universe is: an loose handle torn from the walls of quantum mechanics and solipsism.


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26997640 - 10/22/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Or maybe it's not that coherent?
Just as I wrote to the dog previously, it seems you are actively negative towards the concept based on the fact that misuse of the concepts exists. Your making a bigger deal out of the misuse the I'm making out of the idea itself.

And why are you choosing to discuss the matter as much as you do?
Does not that mean you have bought into the scam?
It's consumes at least as much of your intellectual time as mine.

And are you saying that it is an intellectual scam, simply because it does not end with some tangible or a definitive right/wrong answer?  Would you argue that the idea of the universe being infinite is an intellectual scam? Or the question: How did the world came to be? All the stuff one can ponder but never know, are those thins intellectual scams?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Malkuthian]
    #26997678 - 10/22/20 10:27 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

yes to the impression that the universe is infinite, nothing suggests otherwise, and new data continues to support the investigation.

no to we wont ever know how the world came to be; it is largely understood as a narrative from the big bang, and pondering that is healthy exercise; going forward we will learn more of that story.

creationists have propagandized their intellectual scams, AKA myths, otherwise you would not have this confused.

one thing to consider is that when there are limits to what we really have discovered in science, this does not mean that all things beyond what we know are true; some may be true, some may just be wonky ideas.


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26997737 - 10/22/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
no to we wont ever know how the world came to be; it is largely understood as a narrative from the big bang, and pondering that is healthy exercise; going forward we will learn more of that story.




I was not referring to the big bang, but to: why was there a big bang in the first place? The big bang itself does not explain why the universe exist. The big bang is something we can study to learn a great deal of things, but it does not explain why there is something rather than nothing.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
creationists have propagandized their intellectual scams,




Yes, exactly, you are putting emphasis on misuse of the concept rather than the concept itself, as I said.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
AKA myths, otherwise you would not have this confused.




Why are you saying I am confused? Seems a bit arrogant.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
one thing to consider is that when there are limits to what we really have discovered in science, this does not mean that all things beyond what we know are true; some may be true, some may just be wonky ideas.



I agree completely with that. And in many cases it's easy to understand what is what, but in some cases the line between a wonky idea and an actual possibility is not as distinguishable. I would argue that there is a real chance that this is a simulation, even though I would give that chance a very low percentage.

We have had computer simulations for a very very short period of time. What happens to the level of details in computer simulations if we let time pass another 10 000 years, with quantum computers and AI? Do you think we will never ever in the entire history of man be able to simulate something as detailed as the world you are perceiving?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Malkuthian]
    #26997803 - 10/22/20 11:53 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

you may simulate anything worth simulating to the degree of veracity that suits the purpose of simulation.

eg. several flight simulators are functional and lifelike for all airports in the world. However, there is no autonomous reality in it, even if it is set to take off and land and refuel and visit every airport continuously, it is not peopled, and the people (who don't exist) do not have autonomous ideas, schedules, families, histories, possessions, hopes, dreams, cellphones, credit cards, email... etc.

well perhaps you could fit all that into a simulation at 10 billion times the size and speed of the best simulator after surmounting several technological hurdles.

The expense and complexity of the project is huge, while the angles the simulation could explore remain finite; whereas, each of our lives interact in infinite variety. i.e. to make it seem real the computer would have to contain all atoms and all the space and physics to portray them, and for that it would need to be bigger than the universe itself, which is infinite. Every bit of ram memory takes more space than millions of sub-atomic particles.

so, in my opinion, the task of simulating a universe is impossible within the confines of the universe, and to pursue it further really implies the unproven existence of other larger universes which can contain simulators - serving no other purpose except to try to make the simulation concept seem reasonable. 

generally the more computing you throw at a problem and the more complex you make that problem the less efficient the system becomes. Short cuts have to be taken. For this to be a simulation, we would expect more gaps (from taking shortcuts) - so far the gaps we find are mostly dark matter, and elegant equations binding time to gravity and other fields.


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26998080 - 10/22/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I know how computing works... I to have a hard time seeing how it would be feasible. But...
...then we have people who actually work with simulations today that seem to think it actually is feasible, and then we have the factors: quantum computers, AI, and 10's of thousands of years to do it. So my inability to perceive the feasibility today, is not something I would use as a very relevant factor... Still have a hard time seeing it, but I don't want my visionary pessimism have the last word, so I will remain open for the possibility.


In modern games the information is layered. I.e. as soon as you enter a new area, or zoom in, or etc, the information for that area is loaded. Data is used only when perceived (speaking of quantum physics, there are some similarities there, :wink: ) This saves enormous amounts of computing power.

Basically I'm a very skeptical person, but I still don't want to close doors completely. I don't think I am the one to proclaim definitive truths.

If not for that, just leave the door open for the sake of philosophy...


Edited by Malkuthian (10/22/20 02:36 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Malkuthian]
    #26998124 - 10/22/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

the door is always open, but the stack of facts remain unperturbed by the draught from that door so far.


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26998132 - 10/22/20 03:07 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Kewl


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Malkuthian]
    #27001197 - 10/24/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

what kind of people/entities/energies would build a simulated universe?

did beings of a higher dimension created a simulation, that devolved them so that they could live/exist in a lower dimensional state (while being mostly forgetful of their higher dimensional state) for entertainment and/or educational purposes?


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OfflineMalkuthian
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27001206 - 10/24/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
what kind of people/entities/energies would build a simulated universe?

did beings of a higher dimension created a simulation, that devolved them so that they could live/exist in a lower dimensional state (while being mostly forgetful of their higher dimensional state) for entertainment and/or educational purposes?



The idea from the guy I mentioned (Nick Boström) is that future humans create the simulation. E.g. to learn about our evolutionary history by simulating different variations of the evolution and analyzing the outcome when manipulating different factors.


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