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InvisibleMOTH
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Where does "deja vu" come from?
    #2699742 - 05/19/04 02:04 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I don't post in S&P too often, so I'm sorry if this is a dumb question or if its been answered before.

I've been thinking alot about the feeling of deja vu.  Does anyone have any theories or facts on where it comes from?  My last mushroom trip I was experiencing deja vu so severely that I completely lost touch with reality.  I was also wondering why this seems to happen alot while on mushrooms...probably because perceptions are altered due to the drug?

I'm just really curious as to the why and the how of deja vu.  Again, sorry if this seems like a dumb question. 

Anyway, any information or discussion on this is greatly appreciated.  :smile:


*me*

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Invisiblebert
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2699743 - 05/19/04 02:08 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

My creepy paranoid theory is that deja vu is when 'they' come to take you away for reprogramming and its an anomolous by-product of sophisticated alien memory engineering technology.  :shiftyeyes:


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.

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Invisiblespud
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2699757 - 05/19/04 02:17 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

D?j? vu has been firmly associated with temporal-lobe epilepsy. Reportedly, d?j? vu can occur just prior to a temporal-lobe epileptic attack. People suffering an epileptic seizure of this kind can experience d?j? vu during the actual seizure activity or in the moments between convulsions.

Since d?j? vu occurs in individuals with and without a medical condition, there is much speculation as to how and why this phenomenon happens. Several psychoanalysts attribute d?j? vu to simple fantasy or wish fulfillment, while some psychiatrists ascribe it to a mismatching in the brain that causes the brain to mistake the present for the past. Many parapsychologists believe it is related to a past-life experience. Obviously, there is more investigation to be done.

Edited by spud (05/19/04 02:46 AM)

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Offlinemanna_man
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: spud]
    #2699773 - 05/19/04 02:26 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

hmmm, very interesting. But I think I like the alien mind control one better.


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This post is protected under copyrite law.All above content is strictly the property of ?manna_man.Any infringement of copyright property is strictly prohibited.Any violators will be stretched, shot, and then vaporized into a state of anti-matter, where they will cease to exist.

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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: manna_man]
    #2699907 - 05/19/04 03:22 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

During my trip I kept thinking that I had stumbled unknowingly upon a space pocket of "continuance", and that I was trapped in a repetitive reality where nothing was new and that people were "programmed" to try and make me believe everything was normal when it wasn't. I thought I would never see my "real" husband again (who was sitting right in front of me at the time), and also that it was possible my consciousness was caught in some lone crevice of my brain that was psychotic and that psychologists and doctors from the "outside" where trying to tap into my brain to save me and release me...just much crazyness.

The deja vu was so strong that I couldn't fathom how it could be that way, and it launched all of that crazy thinking as to "how" it could be that way. Of course my tripping mind had a field day with the entire thing. I've never felt deja vu so strongly in my entire life.

So that's why I asked this question about it. I know that nobody really "knows" where it comes from and what causes it. Obviously if you're tripping when it happens it's probably something to do with the chemical in your brain. It's just so queer of an occurance that it's fascinating to think about.


*me*

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2699927 - 05/19/04 03:35 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

deja vu is a glitch in the matrix

it happens when they change something


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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Invisiblespud
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2700676 - 05/19/04 10:29 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

it doesn't really have to do much with dopamine or whatever in your brain
dumbed down, its lag between the right and left lobes communicating

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2700776 - 05/19/04 10:48 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I had a theory of dej? vu (which btw means already seen) when i was a kid. I thought that when it occured, it occured to everyone at the same time because somebody was using a time travel machine. But I as I grew up i realized that if this was the case, we woul've realized a long time ago that it occured to every1 at the same time.

Anyways, notice how some periods of time you often have deja vus, and then other periods u realize u haven't had any for like half a year?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2700904 - 05/19/04 11:13 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Past Life Memories.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2700982 - 05/19/04 11:29 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

... or dreams.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Evolving]
    #2701007 - 05/19/04 11:32 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I have dreams about past lives too


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2701110 - 05/19/04 11:55 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

See, that's what I was realizing when I was tripping. I kept thinking, "I've dreamed this before...I must have...or something." But then it became too strange to be a memory of a dream, to where I was completely LIVING the deja vu.

It's just very weird, even to remember.

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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2701250 - 05/19/04 12:30 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

what your describing is ALOT like mush experiences ive had
i start thinking that 'ive seen this in a dream' one minuite and the next minuite im vividly remembering a real dream i had and the next im hallucinating a new one, but continuously thinking either 'ive seen this before' or else i was actually seeing a dream again...
and yeah i too , on that trip, had a dangerously strong belief in a totally whacky theory like that, i became convinced my friend who was with me was a spirit, than i realized that we were in heaven and that 'everything had changed' i believed that history was 'winding down' and all perception would continuously merge and narrow until only a single point of euphoric light would remain.
I was so out of it i walked out of my friends house barefoot into the street, fully expecting to fly into the air ...

i also ripped up my friends room pretty bad, but he was a really good sport about it.

sorry for drifting off topic but your trip sounds alot like mine.
my only theory is that something in the nature of the mushroom trip reminds your brain of dreams, it is probably activating the same parts of the brain, those involved in hallucinatory image and sound creation, and maybe this is what triggers memories of the dream state.

I have no fucking clue, obviously


godam it was raining today so i didnt go to school. now im high.

peace yall
:thumbup:
:tongue2:

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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: PHARMAKOS]
    #2701279 - 05/19/04 12:36 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

i start thinking that 'ive seen this in a dream' one minuite and the next minuite im vividly remembering a real dream i had and the next im hallucinating a new one, but continuously thinking either 'ive seen this before' or else i was actually seeing a dream again...




Exactly.  I only got scared when I tried to rationalize how it was possible while tripping.  And you know how whaky the tripping-rationalizations can turn out.  Next time I'm not even going to bother worrying about it.  :tongue:

This entire thing has made me even more intrigued about how psychedelics work in the brain.

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Invisiblespud
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2701517 - 05/19/04 01:23 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Past Life Memories.



Occam's razor
science has found a simple way to explain how it works, yet you still turn to a belief that relies on faith to explain a phenomena.
that is a fallacy
explain to me how you would have inherent memories from past lives?

Edited by spud (05/19/04 01:42 PM)

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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: spud]
    #2701975 - 05/19/04 03:12 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Ya, past life memories seems based on a belief that relies on faith.
You're saying that since deja vus are based on the situation that you are experiencing that reminds of something you've lived before, therefore you've experienced this situation in another life in the past.
But logically present time is entirely made of new situations and structures, so previous lives could not have experienced what you are experiencing when having a deja vu.

I'm pretty sure there's some neurological explanation to this phenomenon.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: exclusive58]
    #2702001 - 05/19/04 03:20 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'm pretty sure there's some neurological explanation to this phenomenon.




there is, learned it in psychology class
i kinda mentioned it earlier

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Offlineshroom_muncher
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: spud]
    #2702072 - 05/19/04 03:38 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

i don't think deja vu could be any sort of past-life memories. I've had them when watching a newish T.V. shows or doing something that couldn't have possibly happened before I was born.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: spud]
    #2702110 - 05/19/04 03:51 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

ok, I see how Occam's razor explains why dej? vus should be explained by neurological science rather than religious/spiritual beliefs, but I don't see how it actually explains the dej? vu phenomenon.  :shrug:


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: exclusive58]
    #2702158 - 05/19/04 04:01 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

ill try to explain it
you register it first with one part of your brain, realize it happened
then there is lag between the other side of brain realizing it, when it reaches hat side, you get the same initial impression of recognition
i probably slaughtered the theory but thats how it works

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2702290 - 05/19/04 04:43 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I've always thought I am seeing the future when I experience deja vu, its like you can almost grasp seeing ahead of time then the experience goes.


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OfflineAtomisk
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Ego Death]
    #2702298 - 05/19/04 04:46 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

i dont think science can explain why deja vu happens. i think it can explains what happens in ones mind and the chemistry of the brain, but not what actually triggers it. i could be mistaken though.


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o house-builder! thou art seen. thou shalt build no house again. all thy rafters are broken. thy ridge-pole is shattered.

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OfflineAtomisk
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Atomisk]
    #2702301 - 05/19/04 04:48 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

i dont think science can explain why deja vu happens. i think it can explains what happens in ones mind and the chemistry of the brain, but not what actually triggers it. i could be mistaken though.

whoa, deja vu!


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o house-builder! thou art seen. thou shalt build no house again. all thy rafters are broken. thy ridge-pole is shattered.

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Offlinebigbadwolf
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: shroom_muncher]
    #2702806 - 05/19/04 07:28 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shroom_muncher said:
i don't think deja vu could be any sort of past-life memories. I've had them when watching a newish T.V. shows or doing something that couldn't have possibly happened before I was born.



Past lives could take place after the one you are living currenly...
At least thats what I think.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: bigbadwolf]
    #2702879 - 05/19/04 07:49 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

that still wouldnt explain tv shows that will only air during this life time

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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: spud]
    #2702902 - 05/19/04 07:56 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

right, when were dealing with brain chemistry its tought to differentiate cause and effect.
for example, is depression caused by an imbalance of seratonin in the brain? or does depression cause imbalances of seratonin in the brain?

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OfflineLux
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: spud]
    #2702903 - 05/19/04 07:56 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I have deja vu constantly and I'm not going to begin to describe why's or how's but one thing I do know is that during deja vu I can accurately predict what will happen in that next moment prior to it happening. This has been consistant and in fact, I don't believe there's ever been a time where during deja vu what I knew would happen didn't.

One thing I always find funny, and keep in mind I'm not trying to disprove anyone or prove myself, is how people condemn others for relying on faith when it comes to mysticism when for the most part their knowledge is but faith taken from a person or textbook, much like many metaphysical ideas. I really don't see a difference other than one is commonly accepted. Like I said I'm not saying that what these people or textbooks are saying are wrong, but that if you did not yourself test and find the result, or somehow witness this, then it's nothing more than faith.

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OfflineCleverName
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Lux]
    #2703092 - 05/19/04 08:35 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

where does predicting come into it? im not trying to bea dick at all, i serisouly want to know where your coming from...

what does deja vu have to do with predicting anything? i always thought it was a feeling, a strong feeling like nostalgia...a feeling of ive been here or done this before.

perhaps im misunderstanding you.
where does predicting come into it?


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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OfflineLux
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: CleverName]
    #2703238 - 05/19/04 09:03 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, and with that feeling I can recall the moment I am currently percieving and during this initial feeling I simply remember what's about to happen at the very next moment. It's a very strange thing actually, it's somewhat like I'm one step ahead of the moment although it's usually very brief (10 - 60 seconds).

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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Lux]
    #2704490 - 05/20/04 03:13 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I had one deja vu like experience where I felt a rush start at the top of my head and spread throughout my whole body instantly I saw the next minute of my future and then proceeded to watch the events unfold exactly as I saw in the prediction!

Strangely enough what I saw was simply my freind telling me how he had puked all over his dash board and then 20 seconds later a 4x4 driving by us. We were in the middle of the countryside and hadn't even seen a car.

I felt like I knew I had seen the future this time when the 4x4 went by it was all confirmed. But hey I don't expect you to believe me, you are not me!

About the chance thing, like if I had been in that situation before personally I do not beleive is possible in this case.


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OfflineMuppet
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2704566 - 05/20/04 04:38 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I've always thought of it as other 'realities' (if that's even the right term) of the multi-verse bleeding through into the one we are currently experiencing...almost as if somewhere in one of these other existances 'you' are having some grand metaphysical breakthrough, and it sends like a shockwave or something out at that presise moment which sorta ripples through all of your other existances (if that makes any sense)



..........

Thus Spake Muppet


--------------------


:craven:  Ravings of a Madman  :craven:

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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Muppet]
    #2704611 - 05/20/04 05:48 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Muppet said:
I've always thought of it as other 'realities' (if that's even the right term) of the multi-verse bleeding through into the one we are currently experiencing...almost as if somewhere in one of these other existances 'you' are having some grand metaphysical breakthrough, and it sends like a shockwave or something out at that presise moment which sorta ripples through all of your other existances (if that makes any sense)






That's a very interesting theory, Muppet. A fun one to consider.

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Invisiblespud
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Muppet]
    #2705202 - 05/20/04 10:46 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Muppet said:
I've always thought of it as other 'realities' (if that's even the right term) of the multi-verse bleeding through into the one we are currently experiencing...almost as if somewhere in one of these other existances 'you' are having some grand metaphysical breakthrough, and it sends like a shockwave or something out at that presise moment which sorta ripples through all of your other existances (if that makes any sense)



..........

Thus Spake Muppet




do you have any supporting evidence or is this just some fantasy idea you had one day?

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OfflineMuppet
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: spud]
    #2705297 - 05/20/04 11:11 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

this is Spirituality and Philosophy not Science and Technology - emperical evidence is not a prerequisite  :nonono:



..........

Thus Spake Muppet


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:craven:  Ravings of a Madman  :craven:

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Muppet]
    #2705658 - 05/20/04 12:42 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Muppet said:
this is Spirituality and Philosophy not Science and Technology - emperical evidence is not a prerequisite  :nonono:



Maybe not empirical evidence, but Philosophy at least deals with logic.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblespud
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Muppet]
    #2705811 - 05/20/04 01:17 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

philosophy is based on empirical evidence, hence empiricalism

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2707507 - 05/20/04 05:28 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Nothing "dumb" about a concept as heavy laden as deja vu. The implications of this experience, piggy-backing on spud's comment on parapsychology, is really quite profound. I was trained in parapsychology by Bob Brier, who co-published with J.B. Rhine at Duke University. Brier's little book entitled  Precognition and the Philosophy of Science: An Essay in Backward Causation refers to thinkers like Swineburne, Mundle, Broad, Ducasse - not common names. Here is an example:

"The basis of Ducasse's theory is that no definition of 'past,' present,' and 'future,' applied categorically, can be given in purely physical terms. Thus, physical events, apart from the psychological events which are percepts of them, are not categorically past, present or future. Physical events are past, present or future only conditionally - relative to other physical events....Ducasse points out that there is no reason to assume that a cause cannot come after its effect....Ducasse suggests that such a realization will help one out with the apparent paradox in precognition experiences suggesting a cause later than its effect."  Pp. 72-73

Precognition - knowing before - an event takes place, is characteristic of deja vu. One suddenly feels as though one has been here before, and can predict with accuracy, say, a detailed description of what lies around the corner of a city which one has never been in before. The 'knowledge' is present  before  the five senses have informed one's mind. The knowledge is usually the effect of the cause, which is the sensory perception of physical reality.

Reminds me of a saying by Yogi Hari Das, who said 'The present is only the past repeating itself.' Bottom line in this kind of inquiry is that linearity of time is transcended. Very psychedelic thinking. There is no 'objective' physical reality independent of perceiving minds. That is 19th Century thinking. Or again, maybe it's a 'glitch' in 'The Matrix.'  :smile:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: spud]
    #2707596 - 05/20/04 05:45 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

The Philosophy of Science is based on empiricism. Certainly not all philosophy is based on empiricism, but on Experience. Like they say, Plato IS Philosophy and Philosophy IS Plato.' In this context, the Archetypes, the Pure Ideas that Plato first recorded of his teacher Socrates, is based on pure mental experience. 2500+ years later, C.G. Jung picked up on these concepts and modernized them. Jungian psychology is modern Platonism.

Moreover, it may well be that Socrates was put to death for taking and giving the psychedelic 'Kykeon' of the Elusinian Mysteries outside of the secretive rites themselves. If that is true, then the whole Platonic mind-set becomes obvious to any Experienced Entheogenic Enthusiast. Psychedelics turned me from a dyed-in-the-wool empiricist into a philosopher - a Platonic and Neoplatonic (and relatedly, a Yoga) philosopher. I changed from pre-med to philosophy as an undergraduate for-crying-out-loud. Can't precipitate, distill, reflux or in any way quantify an Archetype, but the Archetypes can certainly change and govern one's entire life (thank Goodness).


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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2707622 - 05/20/04 05:49 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Certainly not all philosophy is based on empiricism, but on Experience



experience is the absorption of empirical data

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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: spud]
    #2707647 - 05/20/04 05:52 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

pretty close on the realizing it when you say sides, but there are many mroe sides than 2.
experiencing the gestalts of reality (including our memories and our own interactive masquerades) is like moving through water with an extra dimension.
previous gestalts continue in our consciouness 'waters' like the light from the stars continues in space.
when entheogenized, the consiousness is 'thicker' (in that dimension - time?) or expanded.
while normally we may have one current gestalt and 2 others fading, entheogen permits more, sometimes in the teens.

Moreover we can attend to the moment and some recently past one as well: While deep in the far reaches of one slowly passing gestalt, an event happens and we ignore it.- then we attend to it's clear shadow (merely seconds after the occurrance). as we roll-up to the most current aspect of the moment we are astonished that we have already experienced it.

It is that rolling up which makes us so excited.
and we snap out of revery.
like having dimensional whiplash.

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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: spud]
    #2708368 - 05/20/04 09:04 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Empirical data is known Epistemologically. The rational mind and senses prevail.
Spiritual data is known Gnostically. The transrational faculties, intuitive, eidetic and mystical prevail.

You seem to prefer Aristotelian based empirical inquiry. I am not non-scientific, but I prefer Platonic based mystical inquiry. The object of my understanding is Being - the Ground of Being, and this Transcendenz is not known via 'episteme,' but by 'gnosis.' Empiricism as I understand it apprehends the particulars of existence, not the essential 'One.'


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2708523 - 05/20/04 09:40 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

that is where we differ  :wink:

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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2708838 - 05/20/04 10:48 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

whoa markos, are you a trained precog?


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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: truekimbo2]
    #2709619 - 05/21/04 01:20 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Markos gnostic Bio (from his name link)
Counselor
--

This thread is very trippy, I especially enjoyed the visuals from the rippling of the universe when our alternate selves achieve some sort of metaphysical breakthrough such as death or some enlightenment who knows. Obviously you weren't trying to convince anyone of this as reality, it was an idea that came to you and damn if it isn't a creative one.

didn't mean to emberass you markos


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Edited by sheister (05/22/04 09:39 AM)

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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: NariusFractal]
    #2710087 - 05/21/04 05:48 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, yes...and I used to collect baseball cards when I was in Miss Sword's 2nd grade class. At one time I had 6 Roger Maris cards and I don't know how many Micky Mantle cards. I gave the whole collection away to Richard Sherman, the asthmatic kid down the hill. Dude...public domain doesn't necessarily have to mean 'in your face' does it?

Now I collect gargoyles and grotesques...and books that I can quote from on the Shroomery.


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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2710439 - 05/21/04 09:25 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Taken from this webpage dicussing the scene in waking life when Julie Delpy and Ethan Hawke are talking about how you can go to sleep for just a few minutes, and have dreams that seem hours long, then using this theory that when you die, the 7 or so minutes your brain is still alive but the body is asleep, could seem like an eternal dream.


http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte484v/wakinglife/juliedelpyethanhawke.html

_________

Everything that we see, smell, hear, taste, and touch is just a construct of our minds. We do not see the actual flower that is in front of us. As the light rays bounce off the flower and hit our eyes, electrical signals carrying neural messages from the light are sent to our brains, which then use these messages to reconsruct the model of the flower in our minds. Therefore, what we are actually seeing is the model of the flower created by our mind. Our brains demonstrate this power of reconstructing models of reality every night when we go to sleep.

Ethan poses an interesting question: a question that requires us to use the power of our minds to think abstractly and envision limitless possibilities. Timothy Leary was actually excited about reaching that moment when his body would cease to function and his brain would have full control over his mind. He was actually quoted saying, "I'm looking forward to the most fascinating experience in life, which is dying." Leary believed that death contained infinite possibilities.

Anyone who's had a near-death experience will tell you that your life flashes before your eyes in those few instants before your demise (considering they can see that they are about to die). If this is true, who is to say that when you actually do die, your brain doesn't re-construct your entire life (a flashback if you will) in your mind within those few moments that it continues to function after your body ceases to? If this is true, then you could be living a life that you've already lived. This would also explain the phenomenon of deja vu. Thus, you would be thrown into an endless cycle of life and death. This is something interesting to think about.

I leave you with this quote from Leary:
"In the last decades of the twentieth century, scientists began to study the complexity within the human brain. Talk about Chaos! It turns out that the brain is a galactic network of a hundred billion neurons. Each neuron is an information system as complex as a mainframe computer. Each neuron is connected to ten thousand other neurons. Each of us is equipped with a universe of neurocomplexity that is inscrutable to our alphanumeric minds. This brain power is at once the most humiliating fact about our current ignorance..."


__________



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: bolie]
    #2712607 - 05/21/04 06:58 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for the input. I loved Tim Leary - met him twice, 20 years apart and had him autograph my copy of The Psychedelic Experience both times. He chinned me when he saw his sig from 20 years earlier. I actually tried to give him a baggy of shrooms, but he declined fairly paranoically, though I couldn't blame him.

Leary remained firmly attached to psychophysical models of consciousness, and was himself pretty rooted in earthly centers of consciousness. He was a drinker and a tobacco addict, both of which root one in the body. I had one, really powerful OOBE back in 1973 after months of practicing astral projection exercises. It was not a fantasy or a lucid dream, and I've gone into detail elsewhere. That experience had a potent effect on changing the psychophysical assumptions that I had been operating under at the time. I was for years completely convinced that my conscious awareness had moved some 15 feet beyond my physical body, and taken a perspective that was still directional ('as if' I was in some kind of body) but when my 'gaze' was directed away from the silvery, shimmering astral perception of my neighborhood to my legs, I realized to my horror that (1) I was not in a physical body, and (2) I was somehow in two places at the same time. This fear-felt reaction catapulted my awareness in a sensation of rapid backward movment that ended in my physical body jacknifing on the bed, with a tremendous jolt in my solar plexus.

My occult and yogic models explained to me that my astral body, with my consciousness had discorporated from the physical  body, moved some 15 feet away (and was suspended some 10 feet above the Earth) and the Root Chakra fear response has automatically reintegrated the two sheaths. When one feels like one is falling, while 'falling' asleep, and one convulses at the solar plexus, it is taken as a short astral separation of just a few inches. Now, of course there are physiological correlates such an event, but it has been my decision over time to recognize the occult model pertaining to the astral sheath over the physiological explanation which is merely reductionistic.

The bottom line for me was then as it is now, that while our nervous system does create realities, and does perceive through senses and translate phenomenon, more essentially, we are 'receiving devices.' We can attune ourselves to the different levels of Reality (like the physical, astral, etheric and causal levels in yoga), and while we exist on all of these levels simultaneously, we are usually aware of the grossest level, and then only rarely the more subtle and spiritual levels. The VERY bottom line for me is that consciousness can and will exist Independently from the physical body. Like the movie Ghost, Patrick Swazy remained on a higher astral plane (while the evil people were dragged into lower astral Hells) in an astral [ghost] body, which sometimes 'phases' into the physical plane long enough for glimpses by frightened people. It wasn't until he fulfilled the role of one of the 'grateful dead,' that he was allowed to move into the Light of the causal body, and leave his still limited conception of himself as a body of appendages, rather than an unbounded 'body' of Light. Someone did their homework for that movie.

Further experiences over the years have blessed me with the Knowledge of Realizing a much less formless state of being (i.e., the mystical Body of Christ, the Gnostic Pleroma [Fullness]) of Unbearable Compassion, Ecstatic Love which is paradoxically an Eternal Moment, and Eternity, yet not the same thing as unending duration. It is the Ecstatic Moment which DOES NOT END. Go figure - it might take you there! :smile:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2713359 - 05/21/04 11:18 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Wow great testimony to OBE and altered states of conciousness/being!!

You are obviously very wise, and of age, and some of us younger more 'free minded'(or crazy perhaps), , would take what you say with a grain.. but I know that it actually happened... I also think that other similar things happen to different people, and this alone is proof.. with or without science. Sorry to get off topic, but things like Deja Vu and OBE actually exist and go against what 'science' says , I can't say how, but markos touched on some of it doing with usign the nerves in ways other then we normally do.. I pesonally think ALL people have the 'nerves' to be 'psychic' , and I dont mean reading minds by that, I mean 'feeling' moods just by walking into an empty room... or 'knowing' someones true thoughts though they project other screens outwards... all you have to do is 'feel it'

Which I am still working on BTW : )

peace

Edited by 2Experimental (05/21/04 11:19 PM)

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2714161 - 05/22/04 08:06 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

a link @serendip (lotta ineresting subject archived there...poke around):
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper2/Johnson2.html


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2714486 - 05/22/04 11:11 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I endeavor to be a thoroughly Truthful individual, first to myself, and secondly to other. First to myself because I want to 'grok' Ultimate Reality,' which to me is synonymous with Truth, and I don't want to fool myself with fantasy, wishful thinking, hallucination, delusion, etc. THEN, when I am convinced of the accuracy of my perception/understanding, I can Truthfully relate that to others.

I have no expectation for other people to believe what I believe. My hope is that people will pretty much trust that I am a Truthful individual with no need to deceive others, impress others due to an infantile need for status, or be considered to be mentally ill. If others trust me, there is a much higher likelihood that others will learn something from me, which means I've been able to communicate Truth. My 'mission' is about Knowing the Truth, or what is Ultimately Real, and telling others,which translates into high morality on the social level.

Ever had a dream where you go back in time and try to warn people about something but they think you're crazy? I used to have dreams like this as a kid. Sometimes I've felt like the philosopher Diogenes who walked about by day with a lantern, looking for an honest man (a 'true' friend perhaps). At times I feel like Morpheus who Knows that there IS a Matrix, what it is, and how to escape it when most people don't even Know they're in the Matrix. So, like anyone who wakes up, even a little, such an individual is viewed as deceived, intentionally lying, crazy, or...wise.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineVulture
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2714629 - 05/22/04 12:17 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

ive always thought it was an unconsious connection to the akashic (sp?) records


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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Vulture]
    #2714676 - 05/22/04 12:37 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

One time I was tripping on mushrooms and got an idea in my head. I've heard a lot of people say that humans only use about 5% of their brains (though i'm sure this isn't very accurate), so I was thinking that maybe the other 95% is the rest of the world. Maybe i'm the only one actually alive, and nothing actually exists outside of what I see and hear. Its pretty egotistical and probably not true. Needless to say, it blew my mind when i was tripping cause I actually thought it was real. That would explain deja vu though, maybe my whole life is planned out in my brain and once in a while I get a glimpse of part of my pre-planned life.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: shroom_muncher]
    #2714681 - 05/22/04 12:41 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shroom_muncher said:
One time I was tripping on mushrooms and got an idea in my head. I've heard a lot of people say that humans only use about 5% of their brains (though i'm sure this isn't very accurate), so I was thinking that maybe the other 95% is the rest of the world. Maybe i'm the only one actually alive, and nothing actually exists outside of what I see and hear. Its pretty egotistical and probably not true. Needless to say, it blew my mind when i was tripping cause I actually thought it was real. That would explain deja vu though, maybe my whole life is planned out in my brain and once in a while I get a glimpse of part of my pre-planned life.




Whoa, that's crazy. I was thinking stuff like that too on my last trip.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: shroom_muncher]
    #2714973 - 05/22/04 02:56 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Check out the word 'solipcism.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Vulture]
    #2715001 - 05/22/04 03:09 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

The Akashic Record, from the Indian idea of 'akash,' or 'aether,' the '5th element, is not necessarily the same thing as the Astral Plane of Reality. It is usually a reference to Edgar Cayce or The Theosophical Society. The Akashic Record has parallels in the Biblical idea of 'The Book of Life' wherein all things are recorded (and from which the deeds of men are judged) as well as Jung's 'racial' or Collective Unconscious. There is also a modern parapsychological notion that from the aspect of eternity (sub specie aeternitatis), past, present and future occur simultaneously. Apparently, some people with unusual experiences have been able to poke into this perspective, and come away with predictions - Nostradamas for example. Unlike the GOD-guided prophesies of the Biblical prophets (assuming they were accurate), Nostradamas' visions were somewhat arbitrary, idiosyncratic and imprecise, not to mention lacking in the concommitant ethical messages of the Biblical prophets.


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Offlineblowback
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2715241 - 05/22/04 04:31 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

I think we subconciously know everything that is going to happen to us in our lifetimes and De ja vu is mearly the recognition of something that you already know is going to happen.


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"Son, I don't know, and I don't care"

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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2717564 - 05/23/04 05:45 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

from: http://www.shaman-australis.com/%7Eclaude/dreams.html#deja_vu

D?j? Vu is the lowest state of Illusion
The phenomenon of d?j? vu (already seen) is the best example of a phenomenon of illusion which everybody has experienced. D?j? vu and cannabinoid illusions are identical except for the intensity and time duration. In a d?j? vu the brain superimposes two or more complex homologuous patterns which are thus experienced simultaneously. This establishes a perceptive link between two different zones of the stored time continuum of memory. D?j? vu and more intense illusions are philosophically and scientifcally exceedingly important phenomena because they demonstrate that consciousness arises when homologuous patterns are superimposed and thus compared. The informational content of those patterns is not what gives rise to consciousness but only the comparison process in itself. This is a major discovery which I realised in...1979! It explains a lot of things about the nature of consciousness and Reality.

http://www.shaman-australis.com/%7Eclaude/dreams.html <-- the whole page should be read it's quite intresting albeit a bit (for me) hard to understand.

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OfflineOOISI
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: blowback]
    #2717587 - 05/23/04 06:25 AM (20 years, 1 month ago)

i second that blow back..

when we go to sleep our spirit is released
we then reunite with Lord of the gods ... Alpha and Omega and all between and around that et cetra

when in the source any answer can be given
flashes of the future/past can be given et cetra

we are able to do this in reality but we have to be in the ultimate consiousness which can be aquired through DEEP meditation....

so deja vu is merely a "psychic" ability that every human holds, but not many can control it at will

that would be in my o-pinny-on


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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: MOTH]
    #2748522 - 05/30/04 11:40 PM (20 years, 28 days ago)

too lazy to read what everyone said

but as far as my understanding goes, from one of my esteemed neuroscience professors

Deja Vu is when you conciously realize the formation of a memory while recording it, thus giving you the illusion that "you've been here before"

and in response to the 5% thing, its total bullshit :smile:  But thats a cool theory :smile:

--Krem


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

Edited by Kremlin (05/30/04 11:41 PM)

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2748649 - 05/31/04 12:26 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

I'm only writing on this thread so that now I have 5 threads at the top showing that I was the last person to post on May ?, 2004.  I'm trying to set a new Shroomery record.  :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: shroom_muncher]
    #2748832 - 05/31/04 01:37 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

I've heard a lot of people say that humans only use about 5% of their brains (though i'm sure this isn't very accurate), so I was thinking that maybe the other 95%...

This myth has been rebutted clearly by me on occasions too numerous to mention. The fact is that we use 100% of our brains so ANY POSSIBLE CONCLUSIONS BASED ON THIS FALSE INFORMATION ARE FALSE.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (05/31/04 03:29 AM)

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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Swami]
    #2749084 - 05/31/04 03:21 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

damn, this is the first time i have heard that.. where do you get your information? I think humans use alot of thier brains, but probally not 100%.. 3-5% seems CRAZY... who did they poll? crackheads? anyways, I think we CAN use 100% of our brains but to go to THAT max , would more then science or pysical thought, and soemthing ethereal combined with the cellsof thought to reach maximun energy capacity of the brain... who knows, ...

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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2749148 - 05/31/04 04:35 AM (20 years, 28 days ago)

i believe the famous saying was misquoted from the original source which was saying that at any given time we only use 5% of our brains.

But like was said above, its completely false that we only use 5% of our brains...that thought is completely ludicrous. WHy would evolution allow for an unused section of our brains?

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky

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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Where does "deja vu" come from? [Re: Kremlin]
    #2749852 - 05/31/04 01:33 PM (20 years, 27 days ago)

"would evolution allow for an unused section of our brains"
why would evolution still make mosquitoos bite people!


now they will all die
GRATS
evolution winz

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