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InvisibleCyrilion
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Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less
    #26997319 - 10/22/20 04:57 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

SO i was watching a video on grapefruit and how it inhibits enzymes thus making some drugs much more potent in your body and was curious if it would work on shrooms, and as far as i can tell the answer is no, but i got the names of the enzymes responsible for breaking down 50% of the psilocin and thus robbing you of half your potency and did some digging.
UGT1A9 in the liver, UGT1A10 in the small intestine, and MAO's of course.

After some research into it UGT1A10 gets screwed on hardest by quercetin which is in loads of foods(including lemons for all you lemon TEK folk) and has it's highest concentration in Dock(bitter salad leaf), but there's a whole graph with it's levels of concentration i'll post with all the other info.

UGT1A9 gets smacked by cranberry juice and milk thistle

And finally we have MAOI's for MAO's, which i would say be reeeeaaally careful with these as they stop a wide range of things including tyramine which can cause you to have heart arrhythmia's and die from eating things like cheese, nuts, citrus fruits like lemons, aged foods and drinks, etc. General advise is to make sure you're using a Reversible MAOI which lasts like 24 hours, and not a normal MAOI which can last weeks, and to not eat or eat on an MAOI diet which can easily be found as it's an anti-depressant for at least a day prior. All that out of the way the best MAOI's you'll likely find outside a pharmacist are Syrian Rue seeds, Passion flowers.

Final note is i haven't tested this yet, the enzymes were found in animal testing and i can't give you a specific dosage, though the studies i found had some info that might be helpful in finding the answer, so have fun and be safe :smile:

https://europepmc.org/article/pmc/pmc3164271
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4164973/
https://myintakepro.com/blog/quercetin-rich-foods/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41805982_Natural_Monoamine_oxidase_inhibitors_A_Review


TL:DR eat dock leaves and drink cranberry juice before tripping shrooms to get more bang for your buck. Also an MAOI but you might get sick/die if you don't read up on it.


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Cyrilion] * 1
    #26997337 - 10/22/20 05:14 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

No need to avoid Tyramine or follow any diet when working with reversible MAO-A inhibitors like Rue/Caapi/Harmalas or Moclobemide, you will not have health risks or die if you eat something with MAO-A inhibition. Do need to avoid drug to drug interactions though.


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InvisibleMindMeower
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Sabnock]
    #26998272 - 10/22/20 04:25 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I am gonna experiment with cranberry juice next time I trip ~


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OfflineskOsH
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: MindMeower]
    #26998863 - 10/22/20 11:19 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

vitamin b3 (niacin), because that will increase blood flow and bioavailability. I wouldn't take more than 50mg because even at 50mg it can make you itchy. So maybe 25mg

and lemon juice to help convert psilocybin to psilocin before even consuming. Lemon juice mixed in with the psilocybe content (preferably pulverized and strained into a tea, quickest method)

your trip will last a little less in duration, but it will be stronger


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InvisibleCyrilion
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Sabnock]
    #27000951 - 10/24/20 08:29 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I was under the impression that Syrian Rue was an MAO-A and MAO-B?
Also from the documents i read it was MAO-A that was most dangerous with it's interactions, and reversible generally just means that it only lasts for 24~ hours because of counter enzyme presence.
But yeah, im just making sure to caution people because i know when MAOI's came out there was a string of deaths from it because of food interactions, it is something to be careful with, especially when it introduces the risk of harm to an otherwise safe drug.


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InvisibleCyrilion
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: skOsH]
    #27000970 - 10/24/20 08:41 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Niacin is a good call, though i must admit im curious if the benefits of lemon tek were because they have a high level of quercetin comparable to most foods with the admixture of a acid  de-phosphorylation for psilocin preparation will be overshadowed with a cranberry and dock prep since that should hit the other enzyme that stops your body getting all the psilocin, plus dock is 78.45 times as quercetin dense as lemon is, and cranberry juice is very close in PH levels and have many of the same acids.
Would certainly be interesting to see  :grin:


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Cyrilion]
    #27001002 - 10/24/20 09:06 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrilion said:
I was under the impression that Syrian Rue was an MAO-A and MAO-B?
Also from the documents i read it was MAO-A that was most dangerous with it's interactions, and reversible generally just means that it only lasts for 24~ hours because of counter enzyme presence.
But yeah, im just making sure to caution people because i know when MAOI's came out there was a string of deaths from it because of food interactions, it is something to be careful with, especially when it introduces the risk of harm to an otherwise safe drug.




Harmalas only inhibit MAO-A, not MAO-B. Moclobemide, a pharmaceutical reversible MAO-A inhibitor is said to also partially inhibit MAO-B in higher dosages, yet there's also no Tyramine interactions with that either.

Harmalas are reversible and selective MAO-A inhibitors, meaning they reversibly inhibit MAO-A for a short amount of time and are selective for MAO-A only. The gut's MAO-A inhibition by Harmalas only lasts 2 hours, which is evidenced by the fact that DMT can't be orally activated 2 hours after the Harmalas. Also, because the MAO-A inhibition is reversible, it's been shown that Tyramine can actually end up displacing the MAO-A inhibition so that MAO-A can metabolize Tyramine normally, plus MAO-B remains uninhibited and can metabolize Tyramine while MAO-A is inhibited but if there's too much Tyramine for MAO-B to metabolize, the Tyramine can displace the Harmala's MAO-A inhibition to allow for MAO-A to metabolize it out as well.

So to put it simply, the gut MAO-A inhibition from Harmalas only lasts about 2 hours, and because they are reversible, they only last a very short time, after 2 hours gut MAO-A goes back to normal, even if MAO-A is still inhibited elsewhere, thus Tyramine can be broken down in the gut as usual, and even if MAO-A is inhibited in the gut, the Tyramine can displace it's inhibition and still be metabolized out by MAO-A, as well as MAO-B.

The problem with older MAOI's, is that they were irreversible and non-selective, meaning they would inhibit MAO-A and MAO-B, for 2 weeks, and Tyramine couldn't displace the inhibition because of the irreversibility.

As far as deaths go, i think it's quite over exaggerated. Most side-effects of Tyramine combined with MAOI's, is a migraine type headache and what they call a hypertensive crisis where one's blood pressure and heart rate shoots up, can be dangerous in rare cases but most people don't have too much of an issue. But that's only with MAOI's, not RIMA's like Harmalas and Moclobemide. Therefore, Harmalas and Moclobemide are extremely safe when it comes to diet and Tyramine, and only require caution with drug to drug interactions.

I understand people are just trying to inform people to be cautious, that's fine, but when it comes to diet, caution is not really warranted. If one is really that concerned, simply avoid Tyramine-containing foods a few hours before and after taking the Harmalas. I've personally eaten many Tyramine-containing foods right before, right after, during and hours after the Harmalas, never had any issue. Other people have done the same, also didn't have any issues. Some people can get headaches from Harmalas and then blame it on eating a slice of cheese pizza like the next day, which is ridiculous, because once again gut MAO-A goes back to normal after 2 hours of Harmala ingestion. But with that said, Harmalas can cause headaches because they inhibit Acetylcholinesterase as well, which Acetylcholinesterase inhibition can cause headaches. Harmalas also cause vasodilation, which can cause headaches. Harmalas can also be a bit dehydrating, in general but also because they can give you diarrhea and make you vomit, which can also lead to dehydration, which can also cause headaches. So there's reasons why Harmalas cause headaches that have nothing to do with Tyramine.

Plenty of people will tell you there's no harm from Harmalas and diet, and certainly no risk of death. Now, if you were to take Methamphetamine or MDMA or potentially an SSRI or maybe an opiate, with Harmalas, that can lead to death, which is why drug to drug interactions need to be taken seriously, and why there's been deaths associated with Ayahuasca, aside from deaths in Aya circles not attributed to Aya but to the use of Kambo (even water intoxication/od when doing Kambo), or from the drinking of Tobacco tea, or the use of Brugmansia/Datura in Aya brews, etc.

Also, i for one take Harmalas so regularly that i build up the Harmala reverse tolerance which does away with it's more undesirable side-effects like nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, reduces the body load and motor function impairment, and becomes more of a functional anti-depressant, i've never dieted or avoided any foods, i've eaten many things while on Harmalas, never noticed any dietary issues.

It's also worth noting that there's a difference between the MAOI diet, and the Ayahuasca diet, the Ayahuasca diet has nothing to do with dietary interactions, but has to do with purification and cleaning/detoxing of the body, as well as increasing sensitivity to the Aya and other medicines and such. The MAOI diet strictly applies solely to irreversible and non-selective MAOI's.


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Edited by Sabnock (10/24/20 01:40 PM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Cyrilion] * 1
    #27001338 - 10/24/20 02:19 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrilion said:
Niacin is a good call, though i must admit im curious if the benefits of lemon tek were because they have a high level of quercetin comparable to most foods with the admixture of a acid  de-phosphorylation for psilocin preparation will be overshadowed with a cranberry and dock prep since that should hit the other enzyme that stops your body getting all the psilocin, plus dock is 78.45 times as quercetin dense as lemon is, and cranberry juice is very close in PH levels and have many of the same acids.
Would certainly be interesting to see  :grin:




The citric acid in lemon tek doesn't dephosphorlyze psilocybin but it does make the actives more bio-available due to citrification.  Citric acid tek (for small amounts of water) improves the solubility of psilocin as well which is key to extraction.  See acidic tea tek (now with working links to sources).


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OfflineMessiah of Savants
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27001970 - 10/24/20 11:08 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I'm curious about bitter dock and milk thistle now. :x

I tried syrian rue with probably 7g of mushrooms before and it gave me a headache and an overall uncomfortable feeling. It did seem to add a lot to how strong the trip was and changed the overall feel of it a bit. I've kind of always wanted to try it again, but I don't want to feel like that again and have also heard the precautions about it.

I would love to find something that magnifies the trip so I don't have to use so many mushrooms. The last year I've been doing 14g trips. The last two trips I've double dosed over an ounce. It's not really a huge deal since I don't eat them anymore, only lemon teas and I have plenty of shrooms, but still... dosing an ounce is a lot.

This is why I've made it a goal to grow some pan cyans this year!


Edited by Messiah of Savants (10/24/20 11:11 PM)


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Messiah of Savants]
    #27002284 - 10/25/20 07:17 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Messiah of Savants said: I tried syrian rue with probably 7g of mushrooms before and it gave me a headache and an overall uncomfortable feeling. It did seem to add a lot to how strong the trip was and changed the overall feel of it a bit. I've kind of always wanted to try it again, but I don't want to feel like that again and have also heard the precautions about it.




Don't take 7 grams of mushrooms on top of Rue. The general rule is, the more Rue you use, the less DMT or Psilocin you'll need, the less Rue you use, the more DMT or Psilocin you'll need. You can definitely get a fully immersive experience from a few grams of mushrooms using Rue, or even Moclobemide, if you take too much mushrooms you could be in for a rough time on top of MAO-A inhibition.


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OfflineMessiah of Savants
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Sabnock]
    #27002294 - 10/25/20 07:30 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sabnock said:
Quote:

Messiah of Savants said: I tried syrian rue with probably 7g of mushrooms before and it gave me a headache and an overall uncomfortable feeling. It did seem to add a lot to how strong the trip was and changed the overall feel of it a bit. I've kind of always wanted to try it again, but I don't want to feel like that again and have also heard the precautions about it.




Don't take 7 grams of mushrooms on top of Rue. The general rule is, the more Rue you use, the less DMT or Psilocin you'll need, the less Rue you use, the more DMT or Psilocin you'll need. You can definitely get a fully immersive experience from a few grams of mushrooms using Rue, or even Moclobemide, if you take too much mushrooms you could be in for a rough time on top of MAO-A inhibition.





Rough in what way? Uncomfortable pain? or just extremely powerful? My normal doses are 14g. 7g is not really much to me. That's why I reduced it in half for the rue. 3 grams without rue is like smoking weed to me. It's certainly no trip. I thought the whole idea was to enhance the trip and make it twice as strong?

Are you saying I shouldn't even bother with rue because I need high doses to feel like I'm tripping and with that dose the MAOI will cause more uncomfortableness than enjoyment?

Are you saying that a few grams of mushrooms and some rue should be the equivalent of 14g+ of mushrooms?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I also want to state that the 7g rue trip wasn't really bad, just that it had much more uncomfortable side effects than a normal 14g trip for me. It was fun, but I also felt like my head was going to explode from the pressure.


Edited by Messiah of Savants (10/25/20 07:32 AM)


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Messiah of Savants]
    #27002330 - 10/25/20 08:21 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I'm saying that with the Rue it can be quite a bit more powerful and intense, but also has a completely different nature/character in terms of experience/medicine compared to mushrooms by themselves, Psilohuasca is more like Ayahuasca in terms of it's nature and the kind of experience you'll get, so it'll be quite different than mushrooms on their own.

It's not that there would be pain or something, but things could get uncomfortable, particularly mentally, a little bit physically. How much Rue did you end up consuming with the 7 grams of mushrooms? Too much Rue can cause a sickly physical feeling, along with some nausea, possible vomiting or diarrhea, the body load can feel uncomfortable or heavy, personally i've found for Psilohuasca 2.5 grams to 4.5 grams of Rue is good, but the more Rue you use the more proper you'll be in Huasca territory.

My last Psilohuasca experience was using 4-ACO-DMT instead of mushrooms, took 35mgs of 4-ACO with 2.5 grams of Rue and it was by far the most powerful Psilohuasca experience i've had to date, up there with my stongest Ayahausca experiences for sure. Unless one's mushrooms are weak, the Rue should potentiate the mushrooms pretty significantly. For potent/proper/good quality mushrooms, you shouldn't have to take too much mushrooms for a significant effect with the Rue. That 35mgs of 4-ACO with 2.5 grams of Rue for me felt like about 7 grams of mushrooms. So i'd imagine that if you went for like 4 to 5 grams of mushrooms with a good dosage of Rue like 3 to to 4.5 grams, it should be pretty strong. Just experiment around with dosages and see what you think. People are different and do have different sensitivies i guess so what works for me may be a little different for you.


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OfflineskOsH
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Sabnock]
    #27002744 - 10/25/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I can attest that too much Rue is going to magnify the trip by so much magnitude. Doing pharmahuasca, only time, it got too intense. I bailed out on the trip after about an hour.


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InvisibleCyrilion
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27008441 - 10/28/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

Cyrilion said:
Niacin is a good call, though i must admit im curious if the benefits of lemon tek were because they have a high level of quercetin comparable to most foods with the admixture of a acid  de-phosphorylation for psilocin preparation will be overshadowed with a cranberry and dock prep since that should hit the other enzyme that stops your body getting all the psilocin, plus dock is 78.45 times as quercetin dense as lemon is, and cranberry juice is very close in PH levels and have many of the same acids.
Would certainly be interesting to see  :grin:




The citric acid in lemon tek doesn't dephosphorlyze psilocybin but it does make the actives more bio-available due to citrification.  Citric acid tek (for small amounts of water) improves the solubility of psilocin as well which is key to extraction.  See acidic tea tek (now with working links to sources).



If it's just citric acid then cranberry juice is about .8% citric acid to lemons 5-6%, and in the post you specified you use a 1:50 ratio of citric acid to mushrooms(Wet?) so for every 100 grams wet you'd want 300 grams cranberry juice, or 40 grams of lemon juice, or 2 grams of citric acid and water, assuming you don't want to drink too much cranberry juice you could just add citric acid to it and get the best of both worlds. I had been seeing  a bunch of conflicting evidence on the matter of what made lemon tek work, so im glad to know citric acid is the major player there, though lemons do contain quercetin in higher concentrations than most food, so i'm looking forward to trying my next trip with a combination of all three factors here!


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InvisibleCyrilion
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Messiah of Savants]
    #27008470 - 10/28/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Messiah of Savants said:
I'm curious about bitter dock and milk thistle now. :x

I tried syrian rue with probably 7g of mushrooms before and it gave me a headache and an overall uncomfortable feeling. It did seem to add a lot to how strong the trip was and changed the overall feel of it a bit. I've kind of always wanted to try it again, but I don't want to feel like that again and have also heard the precautions about it.

I would love to find something that magnifies the trip so I don't have to use so many mushrooms. The last year I've been doing 14g trips. The last two trips I've double dosed over an ounce. It's not really a huge deal since I don't eat them anymore, only lemon teas and I have plenty of shrooms, but still... dosing an ounce is a lot.

This is why I've made it a goal to grow some pan cyans this year!



Exciting! I hope to get some Azurescens spores to try growing soon for much the same reason. My last dose was 17 grams with a potent shatter edible, which unfortunately was also one of my worst trips and i had a horrific hangover for the next day, but at least i found my personal limit as my trip before that was 14 grams and one of my best trips imo.

This *Should* make trips stronger, up to twice as strong based on my research, though likely it wont be quite so effective, and whether you need to take the food/drinks an hour before, during, and how much is most effective is entirely up in the air, though the papers did have some useful information there, it'll likely take a bit of trial and error to find predictable results.
I have read in several places that MAOI can increase the negative effects of psychedelics, but i have no idea how prevalent that is or how true or all encompassing it is, and as i generally use mushrooms as a mood stabilizer for my mental health first and as a recreational activity second i'm not too keen to mix MAOI's into it personally, and so i would suggest leaving those till last, reading other peoples experiences and then slowly upping the amount you take to see how much you can handle without excessive negative consequences. Again, i am not experienced with MAOI, i only know what i know about them from reading, i have no first hand experience, but lots of people do and likely are willing to help you or anyone else out in finding a correct methodology with them.


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InvisibleCyrilion
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Sabnock]
    #27008486 - 10/28/20 02:04 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sabnock said:
Quote:

Cyrilion said:
I was under the impression that Syrian Rue was an MAO-A and MAO-B?
Also from the documents i read it was MAO-A that was most dangerous with it's interactions, and reversible generally just means that it only lasts for 24~ hours because of counter enzyme presence.
But yeah, im just making sure to caution people because i know when MAOI's came out there was a string of deaths from it because of food interactions, it is something to be careful with, especially when it introduces the risk of harm to an otherwise safe drug.




Harmalas only inhibit MAO-A, not MAO-B. Moclobemide, a pharmaceutical reversible MAO-A inhibitor is said to also partially inhibit MAO-B in higher dosages, yet there's also no Tyramine interactions with that either.

Harmalas are reversible and selective MAO-A inhibitors, meaning they reversibly inhibit MAO-A for a short amount of time and are selective for MAO-A only. The gut's MAO-A inhibition by Harmalas only lasts 2 hours, which is evidenced by the fact that DMT can't be orally activated 2 hours after the Harmalas. Also, because the MAO-A inhibition is reversible, it's been shown that Tyramine can actually end up displacing the MAO-A inhibition so that MAO-A can metabolize Tyramine normally, plus MAO-B remains uninhibited and can metabolize Tyramine while MAO-A is inhibited but if there's too much Tyramine for MAO-B to metabolize, the Tyramine can displace the Harmala's MAO-A inhibition to allow for MAO-A to metabolize it out as well.

So to put it simply, the gut MAO-A inhibition from Harmalas only lasts about 2 hours, and because they are reversible, they only last a very short time, after 2 hours gut MAO-A goes back to normal, even if MAO-A is still inhibited elsewhere, thus Tyramine can be broken down in the gut as usual, and even if MAO-A is inhibited in the gut, the Tyramine can displace it's inhibition and still be metabolized out by MAO-A, as well as MAO-B.

The problem with older MAOI's, is that they were irreversible and non-selective, meaning they would inhibit MAO-A and MAO-B, for 2 weeks, and Tyramine couldn't displace the inhibition because of the irreversibility.

As far as deaths go, i think it's quite over exaggerated. Most side-effects of Tyramine combined with MAOI's, is a migraine type headache and what they call a hypertensive crisis where one's blood pressure and heart rate shoots up, can be dangerous in rare cases but most people don't have too much of an issue. But that's only with MAOI's, not RIMA's like Harmalas and Moclobemide. Therefore, Harmalas and Moclobemide are extremely safe when it comes to diet and Tyramine, and only require caution with drug to drug interactions.

I understand people are just trying to inform people to be cautious, that's fine, but when it comes to diet, caution is not really warranted. If one is really that concerned, simply avoid Tyramine-containing foods a few hours before and after taking the Harmalas. I've personally eaten many Tyramine-containing foods right before, right after, during and hours after the Harmalas, never had any issue. Other people have done the same, also didn't have any issues. Some people can get headaches from Harmalas and then blame it on eating a slice of cheese pizza like the next day, which is ridiculous, because once again gut MAO-A goes back to normal after 2 hours of Harmala ingestion. But with that said, Harmalas can cause headaches because they inhibit Acetylcholinesterase as well, which Acetylcholinesterase inhibition can cause headaches. Harmalas also cause vasodilation, which can cause headaches. Harmalas can also be a bit dehydrating, in general but also because they can give you diarrhea and make you vomit, which can also lead to dehydration, which can also cause headaches. So there's reasons why Harmalas cause headaches that have nothing to do with Tyramine.

Plenty of people will tell you there's no harm from Harmalas and diet, and certainly no risk of death. Now, if you were to take Methamphetamine or MDMA or potentially an SSRI or maybe an opiate, with Harmalas, that can lead to death, which is why drug to drug interactions need to be taken seriously, and why there's been deaths associated with Ayahuasca, aside from deaths in Aya circles not attributed to Aya but to the use of Kambo (even water intoxication/od when doing Kambo), or from the drinking of Tobacco tea, or the use of Brugmansia/Datura in Aya brews, etc.

Also, i for one take Harmalas so regularly that i build up the Harmala reverse tolerance which does away with it's more undesirable side-effects like nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, reduces the body load and motor function impairment, and becomes more of a functional anti-depressant, i've never dieted or avoided any foods, i've eaten many things while on Harmalas, never noticed any dietary issues.

It's also worth noting that there's a difference between the MAOI diet, and the Ayahuasca diet, the Ayahuasca diet has nothing to do with dietary interactions, but has to do with purification and cleaning/detoxing of the body, as well as increasing sensitivity to the Aya and other medicines and such. The MAOI diet strictly applies solely to irreversible and non-selective MAOI's.



Thanks for the excellent breakdown for people, i don't take MAOI's so all my knowledge is from reading up on it, not from personal experience, and as i have no desire to do so at the moment it's certainly not an area i'm well versed in, if i do find myself desiring to experiment with them i'll be looping back here first :grin:


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OfflinePandemoon
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Cyrilion] * 1
    #27008539 - 10/28/20 02:20 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Rue, or pure hamralas, are good potentiators. Way more powerfull than any LemonTek, which only increases the bioavailability of the actives.

3.2g of shrooms (lemon tek) combined with 150mg of pure harmalas (pre-dosed in a capsule 30min before the shrooms) made me see visuals I had never seen before.
It felt stronger than previous 7g trips, and lasted for solid 10 hours.
Under 1 hour comming up, then 5 hours of constant peak effects, then 4 hours slowly gradually comming down. Even by the 10 hour mark I had purple patterns dancing with closed eyes.

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Cyrilion]
    #27008578 - 10/28/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrilion said:

If it's just citric acid then cranberry juice is about .8% citric acid to lemons 5-6%, and in the post you specified you use a 1:50 ratio of citric acid to mushrooms(Wet?) so for every 100 grams wet you'd want 300 grams cranberry juice, or 40 grams of lemon juice, or 2 grams of citric acid and water, assuming you don't want to drink too much cranberry juice you could just add citric acid to it and get the best of both worlds. I had been seeing  a bunch of conflicting evidence on the matter of what made lemon tek work, so im glad to know citric acid is the major player there, though lemons do contain quercetin in higher concentrations than most food, so i'm looking forward to trying my next trip with a combination of all three factors here!




I use dried citric acid (crystals) and weigh them out to get a consistent ratio and get about 50 g of tea out 100 g fresh.  I don't make this for the taste (it sucks always) but hold my breath and chug it with a juice chaser. 

Do post a report on quercetin effect - with and without would be really helpful to see if it has a genuine effect. :goodday:


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InvisibleCyrilion
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Pandemoon]
    #27008588 - 10/28/20 02:41 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Pandemoon said:
Rue, or pure hamralas, are good potentiators. Way more powerfull than any LemonTek, which only increases the bioavailability of the actives.

3.2g of shrooms (lemon tek) combined with 150mg of pure harmalas (pre-dosed in a capsule 30min before the shrooms) made me see visuals I had never seen before.
It felt stronger than previous 7g trips, and lasted for solid 10 hours.
Under 1 hour comming up, then 5 hours of constant peak effects, then 4 hours slowly gradually comming down. Even by the 10 hour mark I had purple patterns dancing with closed eyes.

-



I'm 100% not contesting the effectiveness of MAOI's, or arguing which method of increasing potency is more effective or better.
Just adding my finding's to the shroomery for those interested in tripping harder on less, plus you can do all of these at the same time.
My experiment will involve my mixing a 1:40 fresh harvest citric acid tea after taking cranberry juice and either sour dock or watercress to a dosage and timing i feel will be most effective in the hopes of getting a 25%-100% stronger dose, but any increase in potency is worth noting imo :mushroom2::laugh::mushroom2:


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InvisibleCyrilion
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27008605 - 10/28/20 02:52 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

Cyrilion said:

If it's just citric acid then cranberry juice is about .8% citric acid to lemons 5-6%, and in the post you specified you use a 1:50 ratio of citric acid to mushrooms(Wet?) so for every 100 grams wet you'd want 300 grams cranberry juice, or 40 grams of lemon juice, or 2 grams of citric acid and water, assuming you don't want to drink too much cranberry juice you could just add citric acid to it and get the best of both worlds. I had been seeing  a bunch of conflicting evidence on the matter of what made lemon tek work, so im glad to know citric acid is the major player there, though lemons do contain quercetin in higher concentrations than most food, so i'm looking forward to trying my next trip with a combination of all three factors here!




I use dried citric acid (crystals) and weigh them out to get a consistent ratio and get about 50 g of tea out 100 g fresh.  I don't make this for the taste (it sucks always) but hold my breath and chug it with a juice chaser. 

Do post a report on quercetin effect - with and without would be really helpful to see if it has a genuine effect. :goodday:



Makes sense to me, my plans are to initially limit test via my best guess of whats most effective on a dose of around 5 grams and see how much it affects me as thats the lowest dose i've experienced hallucinations on(barring one time at 2 grams), but i will certainly be testing them independently in the future to see how effective each piece of the puzzle is once i have a baseline for increased trip potency and then once i have a good idea of what works best in what ratio's i'll come back to trying them all together again and see how it goes, though this will likely take some time as i want to make sure i have enough time between trips to prevent any interactions between my ADHD medication, and to give time for tolerance to reset :grin:


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OfflineSabnock
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Re: Increasing bioavailability of psilocybin or how to trip hard on less [Re: Cyrilion]
    #27008763 - 10/28/20 04:25 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrilion said: I have read in several places that MAOI can increase the negative effects of psychedelics, but i have no idea how prevalent that is or how true or all encompassing it is, and as i generally use mushrooms as a mood stabilizer for my mental health first and as a recreational activity second i'm not too keen to mix MAOI's into it personally, and so i would suggest leaving those till last, reading other peoples experiences and then slowly upping the amount you take to see how much you can handle without excessive negative consequences. Again, i am not experienced with MAOI, i only know what i know about them from reading, i have no first hand experience, but lots of people do and likely are willing to help you or anyone else out in finding a correct methodology with them.




The MAO-A inhibition definitely doesn't increase the negatives, if anything, it reduces the negatives. The only negative i can see is due to the potentiation of the Psychedelic dosage which can lead people into more of a mentally challenging trip, so due to potentiation, better to start lower on the dosage for the Psychedelic side. Harmalas actually have relaxant and anti-anxiety properties in higher dosages, and provides a more clearheaded/sober-ish kind of experience, which imo makes the Psychedelic more user-friendly and more positive. Ime with Ayahuasca and Psilohuasca, i find Psilohuasca to be a lot more relaxed/gentler/less intense than Aya, still as powerful as Aya, just that Psilocin is not as intense as the DMT. Trust me, i have plenty of experience with the Huasca's, it's nowhere near as bad as people think.


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