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OfflineJohn in WI
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Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta...
    #26996664 - 10/21/20 04:14 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I'm an avid veggie and cannabis grower.  I finally have enough space to up my game.  I just assembled a magnificent compost pile of chicken litter, fall leaves, coffee grounds....  Heavily mulched next year's garden, etc.

I've been reading for over a decade every volume on organic gardening and permaculture I could find, and became very interested in leaf mold.  I just prepared several big bags of shredded leaves that I will haul in to the basement to winter over.  The claim is that it can hold 500% it's own weight in water, and is full of micronutrients.  Out in the garden, I'm sure it would do fine--but what about indoor plants?  Should work great, really a substitute for peat.

I built a small biochar reactor from a 30 and 55gallon drum. It's pretty slick, using wood gas pumping out of the inner drum to help heat up the reactor. Once it's up and running, it's very clean with very little smoke.  Again, I was hoping to find a use for fallen branches and othe woody material.  Old gardening books always speak of "agricultural charcoal", and newer claims report the pores in the wood can hold moisture and colonies of favorable bacteria. Any truth to the claims?

Finally, I went to the landscape material supplier earlier in the year, and they let me collect several buckets of very fine sand/dust from the runoff from their gravel piles.  I got a nice mix of 2 colors of granite, basalt, scoria, and marble.  Once again--the claim is that mineralizing soil, and all the micronutes that rock dust provides, is the greatest thing in the world. I understand proper soil nutrition is important--but is it a dramatic difference?

Has anyone messed with these things for an indoor garden? (ie, top quality medical MJ).  The logic, I think, is sound.  But I am really trying to not fall for marketing hype, or believing bullshit about biodymanics (that stiring a pot in one direction vs. the other...) would make a difference.

I'd be interested to start a conversation about people's home-brew composts, worm castings, manures, inorganic materials, etc.  I plan to inundate my garden with (literally) tons of organics.  Just curious if I should bother for indoor plants. Typical peat/coir based media.  Thanks for any thoughts!


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InvisibleFeroxx
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: John in WI]
    #27000174 - 10/23/20 05:57 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

florida phosphate rock is full of uranium, stay away from it, others can be quite good, but by themselves can be quite weak, powdered then reacted with acids work a lot better, vit C is great for this, but quite expensive


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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: Feroxx]
    #27000826 - 10/24/20 05:54 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I collected a bunch of sand/dust from gravel piles at a landscape supplier locally.  The owner said it was all locally procured, so that should be fine.

I also live in an area where glaciers dumped a lot of mixed hard and soft stone. Last weekend, I collected some red and black granite, some basalt, and various other green, black and red stones.  I have a diamond saw on a grinder.  I was going to spend a couple hours grinding them into fine powder.

As far as acid--it would certainly help weather the stones and release ions.  But I think my plan is to add the dust to an active compost pile.  Organic acids can release the ions, but a healthy compost pile would also produce tannic acids and other materials that would chelate the ions and prevent them from leaching out of the soil as quickly.  By the time I would use the compost, it would have been cooking for several months. 

I think it's an interesting idea--to provide the micronutrients, but also a way to sequester and stabilize them. In addition to materials that promote cation exchange.  I can't imagine it would hurt anything, I'm just curious if it would help enough to make it worthwhile.  I have been working with clones--a side by side test with and without rock dust would be interesting.


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InvisibleZifozonke
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: John in WI]
    #27013850 - 10/31/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

You sound very much like myself
I think we both been on the same path..
Ive haven't yet made a biochar burner for terra petra yet but It's been on my cards for a while_got some drums _just gotta get off my arse and make it happen
I've got a worm farm and try produce as much EWC as possible and have been amending my soil with kelp meal_rockdusts_ langvos rockphoshate_and crab meal shell from crayfish shells I pick up on beach and grind up to a meal
Got a few big compost piles always in rotation and I'm always picking up any garden matter (leaves/grass) to continually add into my garden as well
My favorite is airated compost teas (ACT)which I brew up as much as possible
Plants just love the stuff
Here's a pic of a fresh batch about to be diluted 50/50 with rain water and onto plants


I also grow comfrey which I use a lot of for  fermented teas and have done a up a few batches of fermented papaya/pumpkin/bananas aka KNF methods
Still learning... but lovin' it
Natural all the way🌈


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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: Zifozonke]
    #27017122 - 11/02/20 09:23 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

What's amusing in my case, I think, is that I'm actually a chemist by training.  I have incredible faith in science and specifically in chemistry.  But when it comes to food, pot, or general gardening or environmental issues I tend to believe mother nature has been figuring this out for billions of years.

Ie, the terra preta soils are still fertile, after a very long period of neglect. 

I had never really thought about it, until I visited a winery/apple orchard on Long Island.  I grew up next door to a vineyard and orchard in Wisconsin, exactly at the same latitude as Long Island.  But the taste of the grapes and apples is definitely different.  I spoke with a grower who explained these interesting things about bedrock composition, variations in frost dates, etc.  Subtle differences make an enormous difference.

I think it will be an interesting project. Which I finally have a little room to play around with.  An actual backyard, etc. 

I've made biochar in very small quantities using a 1 gallon paint can to hold to wood.  It works, but 1 gallon of wood shrinks to a very small volume after  pyrolysis.  I definitely need to step it up to at least a 30gallon drum inside of a 55 gallon drum.  Done properly, it's environmentally responsible too.


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InvisibleZifozonke
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: John in WI]
    #27017407 - 11/02/20 12:29 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Saw a great link on youtube somewhere
Looks pretty easy to make ...
Think it was like 2 large drums and one smaller atop for a chimney
Bit of cutting with a grinder and that's it
I've actually got all the materials(drums and wood)_just got to do it
Maybe I'll get round to it soon and snap some pics of the process


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Offlineyoosername
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: Zifozonke]
    #27017516 - 11/02/20 01:18 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I almost built a retort, but I ended up just buying my biochar from kisorganics.  It's the Black Owl brand, nice consistency.  I bought my basalt rock dust as well, from rockdustlocal.

My plan is to set up two garden beds in my shop, but I'm still in the process of testing soil recipes.  I want to get it right before I mix up a bulk batch.

I learned about AACT's, biochar, and rock dust from a sustainable agriculture class, so there's definitely some science behind them, though I believe biochar has more of a place in indoor gardening than rock dust.  I only wish that I had taken more notes back then...

Another thing to add is that water quality is important in organic gardening.  Some people have run into issues with alkalinity, especially in raised beds.  It wouldn't hurt to have a water quality report.


--------------------
O son of Kunti, I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable om in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man.


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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: Zifozonke]
    #27019109 - 11/03/20 10:30 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I think that's essentially it--the pyrolosis gas being released from the wood help heat up the reactor even further.

I made some charcoal during my apprenticeship (with a blacksmith).  Very crude--starting piles of wood on fire, then covering it with soil to kill the flames.  It works, but it is definitely not environmentally cool.  I saw some vids of big, well functioning reactors and they produce virtually no smoke.  Just a perfect mix of highly combustible gas and air.  A nice tall chimney for a good draw.  It probably would be cheaper ultimately to buy it, but I always seem to do things the hard way!


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InvisibleZifozonke
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: John in WI]
    #27019252 - 11/03/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I myself also enjoy getting dirty making/growing/doing  stuff myself
Waaaay more fun than just going out and buying something(For me anyway)
And I think one can appreciate most things more just knowing what you've put into getting it...


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Offlineturtle_hermit
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: Zifozonke]
    #27021817 - 11/04/20 04:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I am in the same boat regarding natural farming practices.
I run a small farm and plant nursery using all organic practices, huge compost piles, fish emulsion and kelp meal are plentiful, and we brew large batches of compost tea.
Most tea blends are built on worm castings and compost, amended with whatever is available at the time such as comfrey leaves, alfalfa, nettles, etc.
We also work with local arborists and build a lot of hugelkultur mounds that we usually inoculate with stropharia mushrooms.
All natural is the way to go. :sunny:

I have used biochar in limited quantities.
No experience in making it.
Do you use it to improve soil structure?


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InvisibleZifozonke
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: turtle_hermit]
    #27026724 - 11/07/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.biochar-journal.org/en/ct/4&ved=2ahUKEwjzzoOMkvHsAhXMVRUIHeNrC9EQFjAiegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1YFUGA8U7Bh0Qb7tfOuaLe

Here's a link for terra preta you may enjoy

Collected a lovely bag full of leaf mulch/compost off a roof I was working on

I wish I had tons of this stuff!!


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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: turtle_hermit]
    #27040551 - 11/15/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I was reading some dated organic gardening texts that claimed that the little pores in the charcoal help provide habitat for soil bacteria.  I looked at some images, and they should be large enough to do that.  I'm sure it would help soil structure too. I guess depending on how coarse or fine it was.

I think as far as soil goes, another really important thing is to have some amount of clay.  The clay particles help with cation exchange between the soil and the roots.  I mix a little bit of heavy clay soil to my potting mixes. Probably like 5%.  I dry it, then pulverize/powder it good before mixing it in.  You obviously don't want so much that the soil doesn't drain.


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OfflineDancingWolf
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: John in WI]
    #27040610 - 11/15/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

This is correct.

Charcoal carbon structures have significant amounts of surface areas inside and act as a lifeboat for microscopic life. The bacteria also collect nutrients and leave it behind in the charcoal after they die out. I don't recall were I read it but oak leaf compost is something cactus tend to like. I can see this in the natural habitat of a local colony of Enchinocereus cactus (Lace HedgeHog cactus), where they are growing in rocks covered in lichens but the trees rain down oak leaves.

One of the easiest ways to make Biochar is to spread it around in a chicken coop. Not only will it keep the stink down but it will get broken apart by the chickens digging through it.

Don't forget rock dust, granite powder, etc.

I usually source my charcoal from whats left over out of brush piles. I tend to burn brush on the same pile over and over again and it produces a nice mound, but not nearly as much as a dedicated charcoal maker would produce. Biochar can range from a few hundred dollars to a thousand dollars per cubic yard. It's a very good business to be in and I'm entertaining it since I need to clear several more acres.

"Activated" just means it's treated with calcium chloride. Treat charcoal like perlite, it's an aerator, it can also be used to soak up fertilizer, then added to potting mix.


Edited by DancingWolf (11/18/20 05:00 PM)


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InvisibleFeroxx
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: DancingWolf]
    #27045830 - 11/18/20 04:10 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

i have experimented w charcoal in glass bottles with liquid fert, after a while it sinks so i guess that does mean it works, but i wonder if that also could mean it takes time to free all the air in its pores


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Offlineturtle_hermit
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: Feroxx]
    #27075759 - 12/06/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

We work with a couple arborists in the city and get truckloads of wood chips regularly.
We use them to mulch beds, built walkways, litter in the chicken house, build mushroom beds and hugulkultur mounds. :sunny:


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OfflineDancingWolf
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: turtle_hermit]
    #27075917 - 12/06/20 06:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

Woodchips are epic for mulch and will build some of the best soil around. Gota watch it with chemicals though, people spray everywhere with everything these days and it's hard to get un-tainted bio-material.



Burned a huge brush pile on Saturday but the old pile of coals didn't get burned over, so all the bugs, fungus, etc, survived in that and it's been sitting for multiple years. Although it has only been about one year since it was burned on. Still! I'm running some simple tests to see what will grow in it. A pereskiopsis graft, Moringa tree, etc, as well as spreading it around my cactus garden. Apparently, charcoal will act just like perlite, but putting carbon directly into the soil without first charging it up is a bad idea. This stuff should be fine though from sitting for so long.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Thoughts on old-fashioned organic: Leaf mold, biochar, terra preta... [Re: DancingWolf]
    #27079141 - 12/08/20 05:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago)

I believe in aerated compost teas (ACT) but think that biochar is mainly a neutral airspace akin to perlite.

That would probably be an amendment for sticky, anaerobic clay.


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