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 Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
 
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,364
Last seen: 10 hours, 29 minutes
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 Re: New paper on the Gymnopilus junonius group  [Re: mycot]
#26992153 - 10/18/20 11:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycot said:
The biggest is an answer to the question of whether psychoactivity (presence of psilocybin) correlates to phylogeny or not.
It does - in Gymnopilus there are multiple active clades.
It would be really interesting to make a new Gymnopilus tree with the active species highlighted so we can see where they fall out phylogenetically.
Quote:
In other words can we expect certain clades within gymnopilus to be active and other clades not. In recent years I would have answered yes to this question and this would highly likely lead to gymnopilus being split into two genuses as happened some years ago to the psilocybe genus. This is opposed to some species within a clade being active and others not within the same clade. Which doesn't make sense to me??
Genera aren't split due to their chemical composition, they are split due to phylogenetic relationships. Sometimes the chemical differences can help us decide where to draw the lines in genera.
Regarding Psilocybe and Deconica, it was split due to phylogenetic relationships, it was a coincidence that most inactive ones ended up in another genus. Psilocybe turficola (aka P. atrobrunnea) is inactive, and it's still in Psilocybe due to it's phylogenetic relationship to the other species.
I don't think there's any good reason to split Gymnopilus.
Quote:
Right now the only gyms that I feel confidant are active are those that are in that red capped active clade that Alan mentions in the opening post.
G. luteus and G. subspectabilis fall outside the red clade, and they are definitely active. There must be others as well. I'm working on figuring out which other species mentioned in the paper in the OP are active.
I'll have the ability to get samples tested for alkaloids soon, and am collecting samples of the various species for microscopic, genetic and chemical testing. I am especially looking for collections that have high quality photos to go along with them.
I tried the key in the paper for the first time about a month ago, and didn't find it very easy to use - after a couple hours of microscopy and looking through the key and descriptions, I think what I was sent was G. luteus, but wasn't 100% sure, and I'll verify with sequence data to see if I got that right. Some of the characteristics like spore ornamentation and cheilocystidia shape seemed a bit ambiguous, like what I was seeing could match a couple different species.
Pretty sure G. palmicola is active too, though that needs to be verified.
I suspect G. dilepis might not be active.
When a species falls into an active clade it doesn't mean 100% for sure that it is active, just that it could be. It's common for clades to be a mixture of active and inactive species, as evolution turns on and off genes that are present across many species.
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NeoSporen
Antibiotic cream
Registered: 09/05/09
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Loc: Graham, WA
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Nice work Alan.
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NeoSporen
Antibiotic cream
Registered: 09/05/09
Posts: 4,265
Loc: Graham, WA
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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"I'll have the ability to get samples tested for alkaloids soon, and am collecting samples of the various species for microscopic, genetic and chemical testing. I am especially looking for collections that have high quality photos to go along with them."
I do believe that I still have dried specimens from this find if you would be interested. I would gladly go to the area and hunt for newer specimens, but alas, the area is already under snow.
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Moria841
Registered: 07/02/18
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Loc: NJ 
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Re: New paper on the Gymnopilus junonius group [Re: NeoSporen]
#26992201 - 10/19/20 01:12 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Alan, if you'd like samples of G. subspectabilis they're common enough right now that I could provide
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,364
Last seen: 10 hours, 29 minutes
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Re: New paper on the Gymnopilus junonius group [Re: NeoSporen]
#26992618 - 10/19/20 09:47 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
NeoSporen said:
I do believe that I still have dried specimens from this find if you would be interested. I would gladly go to the area and hunt for newer specimens, but alas, the area is already under snow.
Whoa cool species, what part of the world did you see them in?
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NeoSporen
Antibiotic cream
Registered: 09/05/09
Posts: 4,265
Loc: Graham, WA
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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They were found at just over 5000' ASL almost directly on the Crest of the Cascade mountains in WA state, springtime just as the snow melted away.
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mycot
Crazy as fuck
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 1,123
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 days, 15 hours
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
mycot said:
The biggest is an answer to the question of whether psychoactivity (presence of psilocybin) correlates to phylogeny or not.
, it was a coincidence that most inactive ones ended up in another genus. Psilocybe turficola (aka P. atrobrunnea) is inactive, and it's still in Psilocybe due to it's phylogenetic relationship to the other species.
When a species falls into an active clade it doesn't mean 100% for sure that it is active, just that it could be. It's common for clades to be a mixture of active and inactive species, as evolution turns on and off genes that are present across many species.
Thanks for the answer, It's what I was looking for.
It seems the correlation is partial.
All the same, this is surprising and counter-intuitive and less clean than what I'd hoped for, though it clears up some important phylogenetic mystery's.
It also renders forensic attempts to prove possession through phylogeny alone somewhat moot.
Edited by mycot (10/19/20 09:30 PM)
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mycot
Crazy as fuck
Registered: 05/31/06
Posts: 1,123
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 days, 15 hours
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
I suspect G. dilepis might not be active.
You never gave a reason for this.
I have found pics online of G.dilepis from the UK that had blue bruising in young caps. bioimages.org.uk
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Rectopimento
Registered: 12/02/15
Posts: 115
Loc: Seattle, WA
Last seen: 2 months, 23 days
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Re: New paper on the Gymnopilus junonius group [Re: mycot]
#26997263 - 10/22/20 02:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Found these growing on a stump today in West Seattle. Keyed them to junonius but that’s now moot, eh? If they’d be helpful to anyone, happy to ship ‘em out.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,364
Last seen: 10 hours, 29 minutes
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Re: New paper on the Gymnopilus junonius group [Re: mycot]
#26998408 - 10/22/20 05:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
mycot said:
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
I suspect G. dilepis might not be active.
You never gave a reason for this.
I have found pics online of G.dilepis from the UK that had blue bruising in young caps. bioimages.org.uk
Looks like a good morphological match for G. dilepis, would be interesting to see sequence data to see if it's the same thing other people call G. dilepis.
We have two red capped Gymnopilus on the west coast of the USA - G. thiersii and G. dilepis. One is probably inactive, as the MSSF had them tested for psilocybin and found none. No one knows which one they tested, but G. thiersii stains blue pretty well.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,364
Last seen: 10 hours, 29 minutes
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Re: New paper on the Gymnopilus junonius group [Re: Rectopimento]
#26998410 - 10/22/20 05:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rectopimento said:
Found these growing on a stump today in West Seattle. Keyed them to junonius but that’s now moot, eh? If they’d be helpful to anyone, happy to ship ‘em out.
Those are Gymnopilus ventricosus.
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NAMushrooms
Stranger
Registered: 10/28/20
Posts: 1
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Very interesting to chance upon this discussion when trying to identify a recent find (which I assumed to be some sort of Gymnopilus). Mid-Atlantic region.
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Moria841
Registered: 07/02/18
Posts: 4,985
Loc: NJ
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Re: New paper on the Gymnopilus junonius group [Re: NAMushrooms]
#27009171 - 10/28/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Gymnopilus subspectabilis
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HSapiensAmericanus
Stranger
Registered: 01/15/20
Posts: 337
Last seen: 6 months, 30 days
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Re: New paper on the Gymnopilus junonius group [Re: Moria841]
#27009451 - 10/28/20 11:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anyone want to give thoughts on this one?
Growing solitary in an area where I’ve found thiersii in the past. Stature and coloring are not as typical as I’m used to seeing them but I think it might be a thiersii just from a senesced colony. Under the scope it looked like a thiersii but I didn’t observe any clamp connections (but maybe it was just that I didn’t observe them, not that they weren’t present). And I didn’t take any measurements or micrographs. Still have it though.
Western cascade foothills.
   
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,364
Last seen: 10 hours, 29 minutes
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Check the shape of the cheilocystidia.
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HSapiensAmericanus
Stranger
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Check the shape of the cheilocystidia.
Capitate to subcapitate. And I did see a clamp connection. Guess it is a thiersii.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,364
Last seen: 10 hours, 29 minutes
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Quote:
HSapiensAmericanus said:
Guess it is a thiersii.
I think so too - but also check the ITS sequence. There are other species which look like this with capitate cheilocystidia, but they aren't known from the western USA, yet.
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 LeafRaker
nomad
Registered: 11/28/11
Posts: 718
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Re: New paper on the Gymnopilus junonius group [Re: Moria841]
#27010788 - 10/29/20 04:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Your write up aligns well with my experiences, I've seen fruiting in similar conditions.
One weird question: do you generally find these fruiting on slopes? I've a few more than half a dozen sites, all were on notable slopes
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