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OfflineJwardoin
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Addressing my current bottleneck issues... * 1
    #26991566 - 10/18/20 02:23 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I've been very proud of the work I've been doing. I made a clone culture and started expanding. I currently have 20 quarts spawned, 22 quarts colonized and ready to spawn/g2g, and 20 jars sterilized waiting for a donor. However, grain prep and sterilization has become a huge choke point for me and the labor intensity compounds the more culture I have ready to move.

I have a presto 16 which means 7 jars max per PC cycle. This is incredibly inefficient for me at this point, but I cannot afford a bigger PC. I thought about buying a Presto 23 when they were $80 on Amazon and skipped because I just didn't need it then, but now they're $130; AA PC's are out of the question, but it seems they're all out of stock anyway.

So now, I'm thinking about moving to grain bags. I cannot find any information on PC'ing grain bags in a Presto 16. My plan is to continue doing grain in jars, but instead of spawning, I can use 1 grain jar as donor per 1-2 grain bags. I think this new workflow is the only thing that would make sense considering I can't currently drop money on a bigger PC. There's also the question of making it work using an SAB as well, but I'd like for y'all to advise further before bringing up those questions.

So, grain bags with a Presto 16:
Which size bags? More small bags, couple medium bags, one really big bag?
I currently can fit 7 quarter jars, usually filled only half way, so I have to assume I can at least fit 7-10 quarts of spawn in bags? I've read that the Presto 23 can hold around 26, so maybe I could fit even more?
Is it worth it to even upgrade to bags? I know dialing in moisture specifically for bags has more of a learning curve than jars do. Maybe the extra effort results in more spawn, but is just that, extra effort when I can get close to the same results doing what I'm already doing (always gotta play Devil's Advocate with myself).

What do we think?


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InvisiblefahtsterM
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Re: Addressing my current bottleneck issues... [Re: Jwardoin] * 1
    #26991586 - 10/18/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

To start I’d say fill your jars 3/4 of the way instead of 1/2.. that’ll get you an extra 2ish qts per load.  Have you thought about doing LC?  That could eliminate your need to do g2g and fumble around in a SAB. 

I don’t do bags so I can’t help ya there, but I’m sure you can do at least some bags in a presto 16.  I think most ppl do 4lbs of grain in a spawn bag which works out to 4 qts iirc from what I’ve read

Faht


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OfflineJwardoin
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Re: Addressing my current bottleneck issues... [Re: fahtster]
    #26991647 - 10/18/20 03:30 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I'm doing 10:1 g2g transfers. I find if I fill to the 600ml line, I always have issues with the shake (too much spawn), so I always fill to the 500ml line now. I think filling it up more works when I do 12:1 or 14:1, but to fit that many jars, I have to use my short and wide SAB which has cause quite a few contams from hitting the ceiling while transferring. My new SAB is tall enough to avoid that, but it can barely fit 10 jars. Just haven't found the right one yet.

I tried an LC once using a Josex biopsy from clean looking clone plate. Waited 3 weeks and it just got cloudy, no myc, so I tossed it. Maybe if I try with a cleaner plate next time. My issue is: I would still have to sterilize the dozens of jars that an LC can inoculate. PC is at least a 3 hour process, so 7 jars/3 hours is just rough, both for g2g and LC. I do suppose that LC would be more efficient in terms of moving culture around, though.

Thanks for your thoughts! Maybe it's time to revisit LC and see how that goes.


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Re: Addressing my current bottleneck issues... [Re: Jwardoin] * 1
    #26991672 - 10/18/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Oh I see what you’re saying.. if you’re doing g2g, you have to leave room for the transfer grain.  I read too quickly and thought you were going to start g2g’ing once you went to bags.  My bad. 

If you go to bags and use an LC, you could inoculate via large syringe and get rid of the g2g all together.  With LC, you could replenish your Lc jars with sterilized nutrient water via large syringe... kind of put back what you take out and keep cycling a few LCs.  I’m pretty biased against g2g in a SAB though because of a bad streak I had with losing tubs juuuust before fruiting years ago, so maybe I’m not the one to take advice from :lol:  I like my SHIPs and syringes.. it is pretty small scale stuff though

Faht


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Offlinestarbones
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Re: Addressing my current bottleneck issues... [Re: Jwardoin] * 1
    #26991675 - 10/18/20 03:54 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I could manage anywhere from 40-70 monotubs with one Presto 23.
I suck ass with bags still working on that but I use jars exclusively, I can only run 3 extra jars per load than you. Keeping the supply of jars going shouldn't be an issue but bags work too.

I do a bit over 3/4 per jar because I use LC. A shake after inoculating and a shake sometimes two over the next few days. Plenty of room for shaking.

I prep grain a day in advance in a huge amount, oats because very quick an easy. I don't rinse or anything because time. I'll do jars for 90 minutes a load. Around 2 1/2 hours from venting to the PC unlocking. Six loads for me in a day takes around 15 hours and is 60 jars. Enough for 15 monotubs (I use 4quarts per mono)

Six loads for you is 42 jars. Even spawned with 5 jars each that's 8 monotubs worth per day. I know this doesn't answer your question about bags but jars aren't expensive for how much use you get out of them and a few days of running them will give you an unending supply as long as you've got the glass.

Would be nice to fit 6x4quart full bags in a Presto 23 (Unicorn XL bags) and far more efficient but just putting it out there that if you got the time jars can do just fine.


You got this.


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OfflineJwardoin
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Re: Addressing my current bottleneck issues... [Re: fahtster]
    #26991840 - 10/18/20 06:37 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fahtster said:
Oh I see what you’re saying.. if you’re doing g2g, you have to leave room for the transfer grain.  I read too quickly and thought you were going to start g2g’ing once you went to bags.  My bad. 

If you go to bags and use an LC, you could inoculate via large syringe and get rid of the g2g all together.  With LC, you could replenish your Lc jars with sterilized nutrient water via large syringe... kind of put back what you take out and keep cycling a few LCs.  I’m pretty biased against g2g in a SAB though because of a bad streak I had with losing tubs juuuust before fruiting years ago, so maybe I’m not the one to take advice from :lol:  I like my SHIPs and syringes.. it is pretty small scale stuff though

Faht




You're all good, Faht!

That all sounds really interesting. I've been thinking of upping my lid game, so SHIPs may be cool. Working with syringes would feel a lot better. However, Most of my contams happen working with agar, so I'm hesitant to even try LC again considering I'll a 50/50 chance of contaminating it at the start hahah

I appreciate your insight. There's always more to learn!


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OfflineJwardoin
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Re: Addressing my current bottleneck issues... [Re: starbones]
    #26991851 - 10/18/20 06:46 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starbones said:
I could manage anywhere from 40-70 monotubs with one Presto 23.
I suck ass with bags still working on that but I use jars exclusively, I can only run 3 extra jars per load than you. Keeping the supply of jars going shouldn't be an issue but bags work too.

I do a bit over 3/4 per jar because I use LC. A shake after inoculating and a shake sometimes two over the next few days. Plenty of room for shaking.

I prep grain a day in advance in a huge amount, oats because very quick an easy. I don't rinse or anything because time. I'll do jars for 90 minutes a load. Around 2 1/2 hours from venting to the PC unlocking. Six loads for me in a day takes around 15 hours and is 60 jars. Enough for 15 monotubs (I use 4quarts per mono)

Six loads for you is 42 jars. Even spawned with 5 jars each that's 8 monotubs worth per day. I know this doesn't answer your question about bags but jars aren't expensive for how much use you get out of them and a few days of running them will give you an unending supply as long as you've got the glass.

Would be nice to fit 6x4quart full bags in a Presto 23 (Unicorn XL bags) and far more efficient but just putting it out there that if you got the time jars can do just fine.


You got this.




:shocked:

You're a legend for putting the math together.

But I actually PC my jars for 2 and a half hours... I know, excessive, but I was having 1 or 2 jars from each batch contam right out of the PC. Pretty sure the issue was old polyfil, but at this point, I'm still scared to go back down to 2 hours haha. Maybe I need to up my lid game, so I can experiment with lowering PC times.

And I have the time to make all that happen but.... I'm a lazy person! My ultimate goal is to reach a point where things are more streamlined and as efficient as they can be; y'know, work smarter not harder. Since I can't outright get a new PC, grains came to mind first, but getting my PC time down would as save me time.

Now, my understanding is that the Presto 23 can comfortably run at a higher psi which would decrease how long you actually have to run it. Is that true? I'm pretty sure my Presto 16 isn't supposed to go past 15psi, and I've read that bigger PC's can get to 17-18psi


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Offlinetrippytimes
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Re: Addressing my current bottleneck issues... [Re: Jwardoin]
    #26991867 - 10/18/20 06:54 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

If you ask me your bottle neck is you don't buy a bigger pc. If your doing this for fun then stay small. If your doing this in any scale I would at min buy a presto 23. I bought a presto had it for years and years. then bought a 25x for $150. Now that IV had that for months with a auto off timer it has been a joy doing grain. Now I bought a 75x and it is arriving tommorow. I mean to do 6 4qt bags at a time in the 75x on auto timer. You can prep grains during the day then at night before bed run them go-to sleep and wake up with perfect bags. You get what you pay for it actually saves time and time is money. Bags are easy to work with and if you buy two big 100+ qt clear totes and cut wholes in ont and leave the uncut one in the bottom and the cut one on top you can work bags easy it has the space and height. Two things I wish I bought when I first started.... First and #1 a all american 75x or min a 25x the 25x can fit 4 5qt bags btw. Second I should have bought a flowhood year and years ago. Nothing beats the freedom of a flowhood.


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Offlinetrippytimes
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Re: Addressing my current bottleneck issues... [Re: trippytimes]
    #26991895 - 10/18/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I would check on Facebook marketplace and look for a 25x minimum. It's worth every penny. Then buy a timer I can explain how nice all this is.


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OfflinePBJ710
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Re: Addressing my current bottleneck issues... [Re: Jwardoin]
    #26991902 - 10/18/20 07:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I'm kind of at the same place as you Jwardoin with the 16qt Presto PCs.  I bit the bullet and snagged a box of 3T Unicorn bags, but have only had them for a couple days so 0 experience with them at this point.  Was planning on waiting for my FFU/AA to ship before doing jar > bag G2G, but maybe it would be a good test of my SAB abilities.

@Starbones - Wide mouth Qt. jars have become unobtainium around most of the place, so no option to keep expanding via that route.  I like them for what they are, but they are heavy, bulky and brittle - and a pain to clean.  Bags are definitely a step in the right direction to be able to produce more grain in less PC cycles, but some of that efficiency is lost due to proportionately more wasted space in a smaller PC.  Can't wait for my AA to arrive :smile:

I agree with TrippyTimes - get a bigger PC so you're multiplying your output for every cycle.

Should I be able to fit 4x4lb bags of oats in a 16qt presto or is that overloading it?  Whats the general consensus on how much bagged grain you can fit into a PC vs. water vs. open space?

Fahtster do you have a favorite LC tek?  I'm also considering the swap to LC as it seems to be more efficient time/energy wise.


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Offlinetrippytimes
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Re: Addressing my current bottleneck issues... [Re: PBJ710]
    #26991923 - 10/18/20 07:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PBJ710 said:
I'm kind of at the same place as you Jwardoin with the 16qt Presto PCs.  I bit the bullet and snagged a box of 3T Unicorn bags, but have only had them for a couple days so 0 experience with them at this point.  Was planning on waiting for my FFU/AA to ship before doing jar > bag G2G, but maybe it would be a good test of my SAB abilities.

@Starbones - Wide mouth Qt. jars have become unobtainium around most of the place, so no option to keep expanding via that route.  I like them for what they are, but they are heavy, bulky and brittle - and a pain to clean.  Bags are definitely a step in the right direction to be able to produce more grain in less PC cycles, but some of that efficiency is lost due to proportionately more wasted space in a smaller PC.  Can't wait for my AA to arrive :smile:

I agree with TrippyTimes - get a bigger PC so you're multiplying your output for every cycle.

Should I be able to fit 4x4lb bags of oats in a 16qt presto or is that overloading it?  Whats the general consensus on how much bagged grain you can fit into a PC vs. water vs. open space?

Fahtster do you have a favorite LC tek?  I'm also considering the swap to LC as it seems to be more efficient time/energy wise.




To answer your questions about bags. It all depends on if you have a gas or electric stove. Gas will melt bags eletric your safe if you run gas I would put spacers between the walls and the bags or suffer melted bags. I run cheap bags from Amazon idk what kind but they easy fit 8qts. I only use the for 5qts. Then seal them up top then reused then after. No issues. I wanted my whole setup to be automated so my PC is electric with timer. My agar and tool sterilizer is a instapot 8qt. It works very well. My pasteurizer is a oyster 24qt Or something. Set it on 150 and set timer for 1 hour and 30mins and come back 2 hours later and you have a tub ready for the gusto. This hobby is something that can be done with little work if you invest smartly I mean for 3k you can have the best pc a big flow hood and have everything you need to run 30 tubs a week no sweat. I honestly run jars and bags I run jars for my starters for LC then g2g them to bags 2 bags 1 jar. I could do 4 to one but I like fast colonization times. With anough LC you can easy run 100 bags in a week at 5.5qt. 50 jars to 100bags 5qt each bag. 8 days fully colonized.


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Edited by trippytimes (10/18/20 07:41 PM)


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