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Invisiblemaxmush
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freeze drying cubes * 1
    #26989868 - 10/17/20 10:21 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Anyone tried freeze drying their cubes? Theoretically they should retain more actives and therefore be more potent - On paper that is. Just curious if there has been any experimentation with this method? Thanks!


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: maxmush]
    #26989955 - 10/17/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I haven't tried, but they really don't lose much potency from the drying process to make it worth it.  If you have a way to try it though, let us know how it works out!


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OnlineNichrome
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Forrester]
    #26990017 - 10/17/20 12:19 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:whathesaid:


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Nichrome]
    #26990057 - 10/17/20 12:44 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:whathesaid:


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: maxmush]
    #26990084 - 10/17/20 01:19 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Ive heard that Dealer Shrooms aka Dealer Cubes are dried by freeze-drying.

Its my understanding that its the best way to dry cubenis for maximum potency. The question is how do you build a small-scale freeze-dryer? :strokebeard:


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26990106 - 10/17/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

The bigger question is... why?

The tiny, negligible amount of actives lost to drying (if any) are more easily counteracted by just growing more rather than building or buying additional equipment IMO. 

But do post if you find a way.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Forrester]
    #26990109 - 10/17/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

i thought they dried way faster


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #26990110 - 10/17/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I guess some people want the best-of-the-best method even if the advantages are slim :shrug:

Im still on the look out for affordable freeze dryers....


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #26990115 - 10/17/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

verum subsequentis said:
i thought they dried way faster




I guess that would be an advantage.

Does anyone have any scientific info as to how much is actually lost from the time spent in the drying process?  (thru air really, as we know the heat doesn't harm)

I'd be glad to change my stance if it were shown to be anything to worry about...


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisiblemaxmush
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #26990144 - 10/17/20 02:06 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I think im going to give it a go. I can get a large home scale unit for about $2000CAD.

Probably will be next month or so I'll re-post then :smile:


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Disclaimer: all information presented is intended for educational purposes only. All photos are only representations and not directly from the user.


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: maxmush] * 1
    #26990156 - 10/17/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Ballin?


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: maxmush]
    #26990160 - 10/17/20 02:20 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

maxmush said:
I think im going to give it a go. I can get a large home scale unit for about $2000CAD.

Probably will be next month or so I'll re-post then :smile:




Oh snap!

:popcorn:


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26990178 - 10/17/20 02:35 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Wow, I guess if you got the cash!  Suppose you could use a freeze drier for a lot of other stuff as well.

:headbang3:


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Forrester]
    #26990182 - 10/17/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Oh yeah!

But wont the shroomy smell stink up the freeze dryer? I know it does for dehydrators.


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OfflineAsuraS
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #26990189 - 10/17/20 02:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
The bigger question is... why?

The tiny, negligible amount of actives lost to drying (if any) are more easily counteracted by just growing more rather than building or buying additional equipment IMO. 

But do post if you find a way.




I'd love to be able to freeze dry pan cyans. The dehydrator mangles these big time.
Not worried so much about the psilocybin as the psilocyn. My understanding
is that freeze drying would preserve this better but also keep the shape of the fruit...instead
of turning them into small twigs.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Asura]
    #26990193 - 10/17/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I once tried to dehydrate wild Pan Cyans in a dehydrator, it totally destroyed them. I stared just using the fresh ones only and skipping the drying process.

So for Pan cyans, a delicate active shroom, freeze drying would be perfect :strokebeard:


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Asura]
    #26990199 - 10/17/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Asura said:
I'd love to be able to freeze dry pan cyans. The dehydrator mangles these big time.
Not worried so much about the psilocybin as the psilocyn. My understanding
is that freeze drying would preserve this better but also keep the shape of the fruit...instead
of turning them into small twigs.




Very true, I guess I assumed we were mainly referring to cubes. 

With species like that I bet a bit more is lost being super thin so much more is exposed to air!


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Forrester]
    #26990216 - 10/17/20 03:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

i don't understand freeze drying but how would the method of drying change the amount of shrinkage? If the water is being purged than the fruit is going to shrink no matter the method. Right?


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #26990224 - 10/17/20 03:08 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah I have zero knowledge of what would happen. I am sure the fruits would
shrink...but would hope they would maintain a little more structural integrity.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: verum subsequentis] * 1
    #26990247 - 10/17/20 03:31 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Freeze Drying is a lot like Dry Ice (Frozen CO2). Dry Ice turns from a solid to a gas instantaneously in a process called sublimation. This is what happens during the Freeze Drying process.

To Freeze dry, you first freeze your shrooms super cold then place in a freeze dryer that pulls a vacuum then heats up the shrooms gently. This process causes the water in the shrooms to go from a liquid state to a gaseous state instantaneously, thus persevering the potency and physical shape of the shrooms being processed.

I used to work in a job that processed material by freeze-drying and thats how the basics of how it was done (not with shrooms of course :mushroom2:).


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26990256 - 10/17/20 03:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmmmm. curious. Thanks for the explanation. I would expect it to destroy the fruits. Ya'll ever freeze a fresh fruit and see what happens as they thaw?


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: verum subsequentis] * 1
    #26990266 - 10/17/20 03:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

The process preserves the food being freeze-dried. Its how hiking/camping foods are made as well, it preserves the integrity of the food being freeze dried so they look all nice and purdy when you add hot water to them. :yesnod:

I have frozen fruits before than thawed them. They typically turn soft and mushy (excuse the pun :wink:). Not a happy sight.


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26990286 - 10/17/20 04:03 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

medicinal research papers i combed over state freeze drying is one of the few ways to easily increase potency in final product over heat dried.  Maybe store freeze dried actives in a nitrogen purged bag if psilocin degrades in room temp air within the chitin; that may lead to almost double the potency. 

I buy enoki freeze dried mushrooms all the time.  They keep their shape very well.  I was in the market to buy a freeze dryer for medicinal mushrooms not psilocybin; I see no reason why i wouldn't throw actives in their too when i get it.


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InvisibleMycolorado
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: trippleblack] * 2
    #26990309 - 10/17/20 04:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

You can actually freeze dry mushrooms over a couple months in a plane old freezer, given you’re in a dry climate and there’s a fan in it.  We used to do this in the mycology lab to preserve nice looking specimens. Of course, you wouldn’t do this for any other purpose except to preserve the occasional nice looking fruit as it is totally inefficient as far as time and energy are concerned.  Here’s a freeze dried clump of oysters done this way. They were beat to hell before they went in so don’t look great but you get the idea. 



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Invisiblemaxmush
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Mycolorado] * 1
    #26990388 - 10/17/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

You guys are making me want to get the damn thing now lol.

The only disadvantage i see is cost and capacity.

The fruits will look amazing and have a nice fluffy crunchy texture. Almost like Cheetos :smile: Easy AF to grind up into a very fine mesh as well.

Freeze drying will preserve most of what is naturally found within the mushroom itself. We still have a lot to learn about the symphony of chemicals contained within them. We could be losing some of the more subtle nuances from actives that have a low boiling point and evaporate during the "regular" drying process.

Pure speculation however, but that's where discovery all starts :wink:


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Disclaimer: all information presented is intended for educational purposes only. All photos are only representations and not directly from the user.


Edited by maxmush (10/17/20 05:35 PM)


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: maxmush]
    #26990402 - 10/17/20 05:32 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I wonder if freeze-drying helps with the taste of the shrooms at all :strokebeard:

Yeah, that price is some serious shit. Is the capacity pretty small? Or you looking for large scale freeze dryers?


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: trippleblack] * 2
    #26990419 - 10/17/20 05:53 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

trippleblack said:
medicinal research papers i combed over state freeze drying is one of the few ways to easily increase potency in final product over heat dried.  Maybe store freeze dried actives in a nitrogen purged bag if psilocin degrades in room temp air within the chitin; that may lead to almost double the potency.




I'm gonna call bullshit on this one, unless you have a link to a credible source - I'd love to be proven wrong :wink:

Not that it wouldn't help - but double the potency?  no.


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisiblemaxmush
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Forrester]
    #26990601 - 10/17/20 08:04 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

trippleblack said:
medicinal research papers i combed over state freeze drying is one of the few ways to easily increase potency in final product over heat dried.  Maybe store freeze dried actives in a nitrogen purged bag if psilocin degrades in room temp air within the chitin; that may lead to almost double the potency.




I'm gonna call bullshit on this one, unless you have a link to a credible source - I'd love to be proven wrong :wink:

Not that it wouldn't help - but double the potency?  no.




Assuming the baseline is regularly dried fruits, in theory it would not INCREASE the potency but rather DECREASE the degradation of actives.


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: maxmush] * 1
    #26990710 - 10/17/20 09:19 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:camping:
Waiting to see if the money is spent...


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Forrester]
    #26990837 - 10/17/20 11:29 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

trippleblack said:
medicinal research papers i combed over state freeze drying is one of the few ways to easily increase potency in final product over heat dried.  Maybe store freeze dried actives in a nitrogen purged bag if psilocin degrades in room temp air within the chitin; that may lead to almost double the potency.




I'm gonna call bullshit on this one, unless you have a link to a credible source - I'd love to be proven wrong :wink:

Not that it wouldn't help - but double the potency?  no.




likely bullshit, assuming all psilocin degrade it may be close to 15 or 20% more potent than the same fruit dried... i was thinking the psilocin content was similar to the psilocybin content..  thats not the case with cubes.

I have links to research stating freeze dried cordycep mushrooms retain more potency than heat dried, nothing for actives.


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: trippleblack] * 1
    #26990845 - 10/17/20 11:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I have large harvest right brand freeze dryers already 

I will be the Guinea pig


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Invisiblemaxmush
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: nogoodnamesleft]
    #26990875 - 10/18/20 12:38 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

nogoodnamesleft said:
I have large harvest right brand freeze dryers already 

I will be the Guinea pig




Sweet. That's the one i am getting :smile:

Please report back


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: maxmush]
    #26990880 - 10/18/20 12:45 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Freeze dried things seem to all be very very brittle. How do you plan to store them without them crumbling into flour?


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: trippleblack]
    #26990986 - 10/18/20 04:22 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

trippleblack said:
assuming all psilocin degrade it may be close to 15 or 20% more potent than the same fruit dried... i was thinking the psilocin content was similar to the psilocybin content..  thats not the case with cubes.





Yeah that sounds more like the numbers I've always heard, like 20% max.

Although I'm wondering as well, even if all the psilocin is saved in the initial freeze drying process, I think it still may be difficult to get it to hold up over time.  With how brittle and destroyed the mushroom material gets in the freeze-drying process, even the smallest amount of air is going to oxidize the psilocin.  But I'm just speculating...


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Forrester]
    #26991068 - 10/18/20 07:23 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think psilocin is as reactive as sodium or potassium metal. A lot of things that oxidize don't just oxidize in the atmosphere. Iron oxidizes but it takes moisture or salt to make it happen in air.


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26991140 - 10/18/20 08:35 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
I don't think psilocin is as reactive as sodium or potassium metal. A lot of things that oxidize don't just oxidize in the atmosphere. Iron oxidizes but it takes moisture or salt to make it happen in air.




Maybe it's not as reactive as those metals, but isn't it known to be pretty quickly destroyed?  I thought I remembered reading, but don't have a link...


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Forrester]
    #26991144 - 10/18/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Ive read all sorts of shit so its hard to know what to believe. A lot of psilocin gets destroyed immediately by air comes from pretty shit sources so I really don't know if anyone truely knows even still to this day just how reactive it is as a pure compound and in the mushrooms


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26991148 - 10/18/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

That's what I figured, what I've read I think is mostly hearsay as well :shrug:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Forrester]
    #26992568 - 10/19/20 09:24 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

trippleblack said:
assuming all psilocin degrade it may be close to 15 or 20% more potent than the same fruit dried... i was thinking the psilocin content was similar to the psilocybin content..  thats not the case with cubes.





Yeah that sounds more like the numbers I've always heard, like 20% max.

Although I'm wondering as well, even if all the psilocin is saved in the initial freeze drying process, I think it still may be difficult to get it to hold up over time.  With how brittle and destroyed the mushroom material gets in the freeze-drying process, even the smallest amount of air is going to oxidize the psilocin.  But I'm just speculating...




yea, thats my only reason for mentioning a nitrogen purge to store fruits; which is really easy if it would actually work. 

I got this information from the infamous INDRA.  Told me there are ways to tweak the machines he make(bho closed loop extractors) to blast mushrooms but the blast had to be done while suberged in nitrogen.. which can be dangerous..  he regrets coming out with the bho tek as he did so i doubt we'll get a mushroom tek out of him. 

indra is the chemist who popularized and gave everyone to tek to create BHO/ hash oil.


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OnlineNichrome
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: trippleblack]
    #26992771 - 10/19/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Butane is a crap solvent for alkaloids. I dont think it would work for any type of psilo. You'd get some oil for sure but I don't think it would be active at all.

Of course air with oxygen in it has the "potential" to oxidize anything given the right conditions and the right amount of time. IME it takes about a year for cracker dry mushrooms in a vac sealed or unopened container to start to show signs of oxidization. Water is going to be your biggest culprit. Achieving oxidization of a psilo type molecule held within a chitin matrix at temperatures we all range (fruiting-dehydration) would be difficult IMO. I'm sure it would happen faster if you continually stored them at a higher temperature or constantly re-wetted and dehydrated over and over. I suspect that during the drying process there is negligible loss of actives.

Anyone who has tried to get a nice patina on a reactive metal like copper will tell you it's not as easy and takes some extreme conditions sometimes.


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Better to be deprived of food for three days, than tea for one.


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Offlinetrippleblack
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Nichrome]
    #26992794 - 10/19/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Nichrome said:
Butane is a crap solvent for alkaloids.





Yea, he mentioned using bho extractors, not bho itself. ie replacing bho with something.. and collecting materiel in a basin of nitrogen.. this is off topic and i don't know anyhthing about extracting with those things.. 

it will happen eventually


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: trippleblack] * 1
    #27040329 - 11/15/20 10:52 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

As soon as we have our next round of fruits, I’ll try it out



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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: nogoodnamesleft] * 1
    #27040343 - 11/15/20 10:59 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Baller for sure. It will be interesting to hear about the results.

If only I had 3 grand lying around...
:broke:


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Free Dive] * 1
    #27040357 - 11/15/20 11:03 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Free Dive said:
Baller for sure. It will be interesting to hear about the results.

If only I had 3 grand lying around...
:broke:




Shorting united airline stocks as corona hit was very good to me


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Invisiblemaxmush
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: nogoodnamesleft] * 1
    #27040361 - 11/15/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

YES! Very jealous. Cant wait to see the results :smile:


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Disclaimer: all information presented is intended for educational purposes only. All photos are only representations and not directly from the user.


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: nogoodnamesleft]
    #27040396 - 11/15/20 11:23 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


Shorting united airline stocks as corona hit was very good to me




Nice man.

I just started practicing option trading on paper money but am mostly focusing my efforts on long term investments.

Props!:thumbup:


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: Free Dive]
    #27040778 - 11/15/20 03:21 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I had a thought while reading this thread. Many medications for injection are a lyophilized powder, basically drug in solution which is freeze dried to remove all water without destroying the active ingredients. I wonder how your new machine would be at reducing shroom tea to an active powder?


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: RoscoeReturns]
    #27041380 - 11/15/20 11:17 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RoscoeReturns said:
I had a thought while reading this thread. Many medications for injection are a lyophilized powder, basically drug in solution which is freeze dried to remove all water without destroying the active ingredients. I wonder how your new machine would be at reducing shroom tea to an active powder?




Considering that the mg/g ratio is very low and the saturation point of psilocybin in water is unknown , I believe some experimenting would be required.

It may just take a while before you open the door open and see more than a pin head thimble full amount there


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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: nogoodnamesleft]
    #27041596 - 11/16/20 04:54 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
"True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country - K. Vonnegut

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OfflinePBJ710
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: psillyboy]
    #27043348 - 11/17/20 06:43 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Very interested in the outcome of this as well.  Might help justifying a freeze dryer for another hobby of mine.


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InvisibleleroM
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: PBJ710]
    #27055118 - 11/24/20 08:58 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I use a harvest right for drying material for Frenchy style temple balls, also have an excalibur. I’ll give it a shot too.  Wish there was a simple, inexpensive quant method for comparing potency.


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InvisibleYour Daddy
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Re: freeze drying cubes [Re: leroM]
    #27055214 - 11/24/20 09:47 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

:threadmonitor:

I sold a harvest right freeze dryer, RIGHT!, before getting into mush cult. :crying:


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