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InvisibleMycolorado
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27000396 - 10/23/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

If one is wronged in an anarchist society do they have the right to wrong the wronger?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: Mycolorado]
    #27000599 - 10/23/20 10:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

In an anarchist society, might is right.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27000635 - 10/23/20 11:07 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Every police car I ever had the misfortune of riding in had belts and shoulder straps in the back, and the officers always buckled me in.




 
  I was arrested by the Border Patrol once with a half pound of weed in NM . They let me ride in the front  , buckled of course , due to a skin condition I suppose .
    It was about a month after Gary Jonson became governor on a legalize weed platform . It was cool I was in the front , I was able to look the guy right in the eye when I told him the public didn’t support what he was doing to me .


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: Enlil]
    #27000865 - 10/24/20 07:00 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
In an anarchist society, might is right.



This is utter assumptions and scare tactics from a person who readily ignores rape, theft and, murder when it's perpetrated by police officers. Right now, might is right... Or rather, "Authority" is right... If you're a cop you can be the most psychotic sociopath you wish, and your worse possible punishment is losing your job. You wont go to jail, you wont be killed, you wont be hung in the street by disgusted people... Don't listen to Enlil, if the Government goes away, so does his funding...


“Anarchists did not try to carry out genocide against the Armenians in Turkey; they did not deliberately starve millions of Ukrainians; they did not create a system of death camps to kill Jews, gypsies, and Slavs in Europe; they did not fire-bomb scores of large German and Japanese cities and drop nuclear bombs on two of them; they did not carry out a ‘Great Leap Forward’ that killed scores of millions of Chinese; they did not attempt to kill everybody with any appreciable education in Cambodia; they did not launch one aggressive war after another; they did not implement trade sanctions that killed perhaps 500,000 Iraqi children.

In debates between anarchists and statists, the burden of proof clearly should rest on those who place their trust in the state. Anarchy’s mayhem is wholly conjectural; the state’s mayhem is undeniably, factually horrendous.”
― Robert Higgs


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27000892 - 10/24/20 07:31 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


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InvisibleMycolorado
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27000913 - 10/24/20 07:58 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Are you not answering my questions because you don’t know the answers or what?  And why do you keep making baseless accusations about what others believe and feel?  I put this all in bold so you’d know how serious and enraged I am.


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: Mycolorado]
    #27000919 - 10/24/20 08:06 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mycolorado said:
Are you not answering my questions because you don’t know the answers or what?  And why do you keep making baseless accusations about what others believe and feel?  I put this all in bold so you’d know how serious and enraged I am.



I didn't answer your question because I am not an Authority on Anarchy and you didn't give me an exact scenario which makes me think you are just trying to vilify my views. Did this person use violence or force on you? Sure, you can do what you want, but there will be natural repercussions and consequences if you kill or use violence on someone because they say something you don't like on FB. Besides that, if everyone takes measures to defend themselves, you run the risk of getting shot, so retaliatory violence runs you  that risk... Better be worth it...


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


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InvisibleMycolorado
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: STPLSD25] * 1
    #27000934 - 10/24/20 08:17 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I’m not trying to vilify your view, I’m trying to understand how you think anarchy works when it comes to individuals’ rights and used wronging as the scenario but was actually referring to crime.  I guess that was too vague and should have specified whether I was referring to chauvinistic, economic or violent crime.  Furthermore, I guess I was actually wondering about the rights of all individuals in scenarios and whether or not their rights would be infringed upon in some way depending on the outcome of say mitigation or arbitration by a publicly comprised tribunal.


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: Mycolorado]
    #27000943 - 10/24/20 08:25 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mycolorado said:
I’m not trying to vilify your view, I’m trying to understand how you think anarchy works when it comes to individuals’ rights and used wronging as the scenario but was actually referring to crime.  I guess that was too vague and should have specified whether I was referring to chauvinistic, economic or violent crime.  Furthermore, I guess I was actually wondering about the rights of all individuals in scenarios and whether or not their rights would be infringed upon in some way depending on the outcome of say mitigation or arbitration by a publicly comprised tribunal.




People can seek retribution for anything, they already can... Me and my fiance got all types of threats over a video I made blowing my nose on the US flag... Anarchy isn't going to stop sick people from being sick.. But, if someone is shot in a violent act, they're not being sent to prison where they'll be out in 5 years to victimize again... Instant Death is more of a deterrent than revolving door prisons where murderers and rapists are fed and taken care of. Not to mention that over half of our prisoners are nonviolent drug users, who didn't hurt anyone..  That is individual rights being infringed upon by Government..I don't think mass hysteria would be the problem in was when mankind was still ignorant and stupid, in the 1800's... People wont be hanging witches or anything, society has changed and our morality has changed.


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


Edited by STPLSD25 (10/24/20 08:26 AM)


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OfflineBorne
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27001001 - 10/24/20 09:06 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I'm willing to say that a formal government degrades the social contract. Without government, that contract is made directly with your neighbors, but under government it's optional, since you're born into state bondage and the contract with the state is forced upon you.

Without the state, it looks like this:
A) I do not want to live in fear of violence
B) My neighbors don't either
C) We agree not to rob, murder, rape, etc. and also to do all within our power to protect the others from outsiders who might rob, murder, rape, etc. (Living example in rural Rwanda, people have a moral obligation to take up the whooping call and to run to aid whenever they hear it. If you don't, everyone becomes suspicious of you. Did you stand to benefit from the crime? Is that why you didn't help?)

Max Stirner wrote about the "union of egoists" being a bunch of folks who recognize themselves as the greatest authority in their own lives, and decided to live near each other because community is more pleasant than hermitage.

If there's a government, they simply tell us not to do bad things or they will hurt us. Some people do bad things anyway, and some of them are found and harmed. This is justice under the state, to visit harm back upon those who do harm.

If one wanted to live in a society where one does murder and rob their neighbors (which sounds unpleasant to me) one could form that society but I don't think many folks would live there, plus if one does murder their neighbors for fun, only one will be left standing, and then that individual doesn't have neighbors anymore, so it's not a society.

I guess my short argument is "Please don't hurt me, I don't want that. In exchange I won't hurt you, and together we can better defend against outside forces that would hurt us, one or all," and it seems sound to me.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: Borne] * 2
    #27001012 - 10/24/20 09:17 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

That's a bit simplistic, though.  Your formulation of the social contract applies to people here and competent now.  The next generation must either be forced into that contract or somehow banished from society.  That is, after all, what you call being "born into state bondage." 

The social contract, when scaled to a large society, looks exactly like formal government.


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InvisibleMycolorado
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: Enlil]
    #27001041 - 10/24/20 09:37 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

But wouldn't an anarchist society still be susceptible to the same ills as any other social construct simply due to the fact that it is comprised of humans which are inherently flawed?  You speak of morality, but who's to say the morality of the community isn't in fact flawed?  I don't think that mankind was particularly ignorant or stupid in the 1800s (hanging witches actually took place in the previous century and was perpetrated by religious nuts who had the "moral" high ground) but even if they were and were doing something morally reprehensible by today's standards, wouldn't they still be doing what they believed at the time to be morally correct?  If so, who's to say that an anarchist society wouldn't be carrying out amoral acts by other's ideas of what is right and wrong?  What if those individuals who held different beliefs happen to be a part of said society and are punished for acts considered to be crimes by the majority or other individuals, even something as benign as wearing the color blue?  Wouldn't that be an infringement upon an individual's pursuit of freedom and their rights?  You keep talking about the government infringing on people's rights and raping them and stealing from them but wouldn't the same issues be possible under an anarchist society?  After all, it's the community (we the people) who operate under a shared moral perspective, regardless of whether we elect officials to craft laws to support the greatest possible good or simply act in a way that achieves the same level of good.  And if that good is in fact bad, wouldn't that be unjust?  My point is, people are imperfect and thus so are their societal structures.  It seems that you're envisioning an ideal that simply cannot exist as morality isn't static and an individual's pursuit of freedom might always be in conflict with another's pursuit of freedom.  Passing judgement on one's actions, whether by randomly selected tribunal or by publicly elected official or enforcement of the judgement via mutual aid or by organized police is really all the same shit and there will always be people in those roles who don't have any good in mind.


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: Enlil]
    #27001122 - 10/24/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's a bit simplistic, though.  Your formulation of the social contract applies to people here and competent now.  The next generation must either be forced into that contract or somehow banished from society.  That is, after all, what you call being "born into state bondage." 

The social contract, when scaled to a large society, looks exactly like formal government.



You're still missing the voluntary aspect, which is huge. Another solution to this hypothetical would be the next generation agrees on it's own moral standards. If modern Government was ANYTHING like this, weed would have been legal back in the 1970's when mass protests started against its' prohibition. The type of Government you're defending has no resemblance to the voluntary "governments" of which he speaks, you're talking about forced compliance to the arbitrary will of a few men, not a general consensus of right and wrong.


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: Mycolorado]
    #27001135 - 10/24/20 11:41 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mycolorado said:
But wouldn't an anarchist society still be susceptible to the same ills as any other social construct simply due to the fact that it is comprised of humans which are inherently flawed?  You speak of morality, but who's to say the morality of the community isn't in fact flawed?  I don't think that mankind was particularly ignorant or stupid in the 1800s (hanging witches actually took place in the previous century and was perpetrated by religious nuts who had the "moral" high ground) but even if they were and were doing something morally reprehensible by today's standards, wouldn't they still be doing what they believed at the time to be morally correct?  If so, who's to say that an anarchist society wouldn't be carrying out amoral acts by other's ideas of what is right and wrong?  What if those individuals who held different beliefs happen to be a part of said society and are punished for acts considered to be crimes by the majority or other individuals, even something as benign as wearing the color blue?  Wouldn't that be an infringement upon an individual's pursuit of freedom and their rights?  You keep talking about the government infringing on people's rights and raping them and stealing from them but wouldn't the same issues be possible under an anarchist society?  After all, it's the community (we the people) who operate under a shared moral perspective, regardless of whether we elect officials to craft laws to support the greatest possible good or simply act in a way that achieves the same level of good.  And if that good is in fact bad, wouldn't that be unjust?  My point is, people are imperfect and thus so are their societal structures.  It seems that you're envisioning an ideal that simply cannot exist as morality isn't static and an individual's pursuit of freedom might always be in conflict with another's pursuit of freedom.  Passing judgement on one's actions, whether by randomly selected tribunal or by publicly elected official or enforcement of the judgement via mutual aid or by organized police is really all the same shit and there will always be people in those roles who don't have any good in mind.




You pose a good and valid question. I have my own opinions on the subject, but I do believe it has been said better than I can...

"Anarchy is no guarantee that some people won’t kill, injure, kidnap, defraud, or steal from others. Government is a guarantee that some will." — Gustave de Molinari

The fact of the matter is, no society or Government can offer you safety, because (short of absolute tyranny) they are not always around to protect you. Indeed, there are bad people out there, but they can be handled better by good armed people on an individual level, than some uniformed group of thugs who come after a crime has been committed, but spend the rest of their time extorting people for the State, and kidnapping people for the Prison industrial complex.

I know that the thought is scary to many of you, but what's far more scary is the violence perpetrated daily by your Government. I mean, the rape of 14 year old BOYS by our troops in Afghanistan, in front of their mothers..The spraying of Agent Orange defoliant in Vietnam, causing birth defects (to this day) on the children of the inhabitants and even our troops children. The burning of homes in Vietnam... The murder of countless Iraqi Citizens... That's just overseas... At home they're starting a school to prison pipeline with cops in the schools, ticketing and arresting children. You have extrajudicial killings now being perpetrated to the DOJ... I mean, think logically about it, what do we have now but a group of rolling thugs running around killing, raping and stealing from people? Do a single one of you actually trust the Government?


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


Edited by STPLSD25 (10/24/20 11:45 AM)


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27001146 - 10/24/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Also, people would group up by their moral principles and the type of community they wish to live in. It's already like that, and it doesn't cause harm on anyone... I know Enlil is worried about the amish puppies but those people are being forced to participate in a capitalist system in which you need green paper to survive... Shh! No one tell him about factory farming (which capitalists do daily to maximize profits) it'll crush him.


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27001155 - 10/24/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

OP getting pulled over:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27001182 - 10/24/20 12:21 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

STPLSD25 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
That's a bit simplistic, though.  Your formulation of the social contract applies to people here and competent now.  The next generation must either be forced into that contract or somehow banished from society.  That is, after all, what you call being "born into state bondage." 

The social contract, when scaled to a large society, looks exactly like formal government.



You're still missing the voluntary aspect, which is huge.



No, you're missing it.  To the extent it's voluntary, some will opt out.  Those people will need to be dealt with by force.  The alternative is to have people exempt from the rules wreaking havoc to those who are following the rules.


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: Enlil]
    #27004179 - 10/26/20 08:47 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

STPLSD25 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
That's a bit simplistic, though.  Your formulation of the social contract applies to people here and competent now.  The next generation must either be forced into that contract or somehow banished from society.  That is, after all, what you call being "born into state bondage." 

The social contract, when scaled to a large society, looks exactly like formal government.



You're still missing the voluntary aspect, which is huge.



No, you're missing it.  To the extent it's voluntary, some will opt out.  Those people will need to be dealt with by force.  The alternative is to have people exempt from the rules wreaking havoc to those who are following the rules.





Sooo, let me get this straight... You're afraid of Anarchy because you think it will lead to exactly what we have now? Uhhh ok...


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: nooneman]
    #27004186 - 10/26/20 08:53 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
OP getting pulled over:




"Sovereign Citizen" isn't a thing. THE UNITED STATES corporation decided long ago to call it's employees "citizens." Once you say "I'm a citizen" you're saying you're an employee of the UNITED STATES corporation.. That's why they have a PRESIDENT... Companies have presidents...

In other words, THE UNITED STATES is a corporation acting under Maritime Admiralty law..  That's why you're "Delivered" when you're "Birthed" and you go through the birth CANAL...

It's all a bunch of word games. Do you "UNDERSTAND?"


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


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OfflineSTPLSD25
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Re: The Government does NOT have a higher moral authority over your life than you do. [Re: STPLSD25]
    #27004192 - 10/26/20 08:57 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Enlil has special experience playing their games on the COURT.. With the RACKET... He sees people who get arrested and have to pay "Bail." (BAAL)


--------------------
"The State is a soulless machine, it can never be weaned from violence to which it owes its very existence"." ~Mahatma Ghandi



“It is through separation that you will win: no representatives, and no candidates!”
― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon


Edited by STPLSD25 (10/26/20 08:58 AM)


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