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InvisibleSmartattack
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Embracing the trich. * 9
    #26983886 - 10/13/20 06:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Yo.


  So I kinda had a huge pile of shrooms around late spring and have not been going super heavy lately and with what I am doing Im doing it pretty half hearted.  Just keeping cultures going and doing a few transfers when time allows and some cloning. Anyways,  Ive been at this point where I dont really have the time or motivation at the moment to do everything to my normal standard....


  So basically I decided I was gunna roll dirty for a while...in the name of science and just because why not,  My supply is good so I can afford to have some fun for a bit.


  Now to be upfront here,  this was just me putting myself through the rigors of an ordeal most would cringe at but gets down to something myself and others have been preaching for some time.  Im referring to the idea that trich in your grow area is bad.  There are those of us who throw a lot around the forum about clean spawn = clean tubs.  Ive firmly believed in this since day one, however at the same time never REALLY pushed that ideology in my own space beyond just not sweating it when trich did happen.  This Isnt something I have documented with fancy photos or anything but just my own personal anecdote Id like to share with you all.  Though I do have some interesting thread ideas for the future based around this :awesomenod:


  What I did here is not so much about me doing something but about not doing some things:grin:  I basically had a few tubs trich out a couple months ago that were bad enough that the tubs never got a single fruit.  Well, rather than ditching the tubs carefully and washing them... i left them in the corner... for months.  I let them go full green until they looked like florist foam blocks and made sure to open them up once in a while,  right near all my cult shit and other fruiting tubs and my spawn jars.  All my shit.  Then after sucessfuly harvesting a few tubs, I let the remnants go green.  In total I was rocking nearly a dozen tubs with a bunch of trich all up in my shit.


  So Ive continued to cult.  And to be clear here,  Im not skimping on any sterile tech,  using my flow hood and sticking with my PC cycles ETC.  The only thing Im not doing is giving a fuck that Im surrounded by a forest of green.  Im now a half dozen large tubs in and have been growing some really nice and totally clean tubs that are fruiting right along next to green monsters,  lids lifted, fans blowing,  the works.  I will also add that I am keeping my unused agar plates somewhere else. :lol:


  All I have to conclude is what I already felt I knew all along,  healthy spawn = healthy tubs.  Im fully prepared to lol every time I see someone posting that a small patch of green will permanently ruin a grow area.  If you are getting this shit folks,  you are doing something wrong PRIOR to spawning, Im for damn sure positive at this point that a clean batch of spawn is nearly invulnerable to trich within the time-frame that it takes for it to flush,  even 2nd flush.  Ive never personally cared beyond flush 2 anyways so take that as you will.


  I understand there will now be flurry of opposing anecdotes and that is fine.  And to be honest I did this weekend clean up my shit and reset,  just because thats my typical M.O.,  not out of fear.  From here on out my mind is however going to be at a new level of ease about yet another thing.  I swear this stuff is easier than anyone is willing to say it is.  Again I realize that this is very old news to many folks,  just had to really cement it into my own mind with a real life experiment.


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OfflineLeafyClark
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack]
    #26983915 - 10/13/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

hell yeah, i like this brah  :rockon:


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InvisiblePsicomb
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack]
    #26983922 - 10/13/20 07:16 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

You're the fucking man for writing this up.  As you said, it confirms what many of us have suspected but never knew for certain.  Kinda like how with Eat's UnBucket tek it seems like it shouldn't work because of all the history with bucket tek / pasteurization of substrates with cubes......but it does.  Clean spawn is king.


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Offlinediegosf
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Psicomb]
    #26983945 - 10/13/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Well..
So it means that you dont even need to bother to pasteurize the substrate you are going to spawn to?
Coir, vermiculite, even, i dunno, manure?
Or there is some substrates that could possibly contaminate and some that doesnt?


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InvisibleSmartattack
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: diegosf]
    #26983949 - 10/13/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

diegosf said:
Well..
So it means that you dont even need to bother to pasteurize the substrate you are going to spawn to?
Coir, vermiculite, even, i dunno, manure?
Or there is some substrates that could possibly contaminate and some that doesnt?





To be clear, this experiment pertains only to trich. There are obviously many other contaminates out there. I'd certainly not condone embracing them all.
:lolsy:


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InvisiblePsicomb
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: diegosf]
    #26984011 - 10/13/20 08:11 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

diegosf said:
Well..
So it means that you dont even need to bother to pasteurize the substrate you are going to spawn to?
Coir, vermiculite, even, i dunno, manure?
Or there is some substrates that could possibly contaminate and some that doesnt?




Some contaminate, some don't.  Coir and verm are quite resistant despite being naturally dirty and EatYuAlive wrote up a good tek showing that pasteurization isnt necessary, nor is boiling water.

Yeah smartattack is right tho haha it's best to experiment and see and not say it's the truth for all substrates because it's not.  However I have seen folks (including myself) succeed consistently with coir/verm with tap water hydration (warm and cold), black kow manure as well.  Hard to say where exactly the line gets drawn!


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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something
- nick sand


Edited by Psicomb (10/13/20 08:12 PM)


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InvisibleSmartattack
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Psicomb] * 2
    #26985898 - 10/14/20 07:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

It probably wasn't fair of me to tease my future ideas, so Im giving a teaser for all to look out for when I get around to it. Im intending ( at some point after I focus for a while on real shit ) to do another full on experiment thread with pics and progress to show this process but in an even more extreme manner. My plan is:

Grow a bunch of trich and harvest as many spores as possible ( Ive got a few plans for this ) and spawn a tub of nice shiny clean spawn. After spawning, what I would like to do is intentionally introduce massive amounts raw trich spore directly into the grow and document the progress of the tub photographically.

:youseethisshit:

Its stupid...and dumb. But winter is coming and I do believe that time to spare will likely be coming at me in spades, so for the entertainment of all, why the hell not?


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OfflineOne of Us
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack] * 1
    #26985938 - 10/14/20 08:07 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thats a really good idea

Idk if you saw it, but there was this other thread today that was on a similar topic. It may have gotten a bit aggressive, but some good conversation and information came out of it.

Anyway, in it someone showed this pic, maybe it can give you some ideas:

Quote:

Boogieman47 said:


Another reason I love these bags .. notice anything?? Second flush




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InvisibleSmartattack
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26986012 - 10/14/20 08:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Oooh I missed that. That is awesome.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack]
    #26986371 - 10/15/20 02:34 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Been telling people this for years.  :thumbup:

I should bookmark this...


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OfflineSingularFusion
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Forrester]
    #26986490 - 10/15/20 06:11 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks Smartattack

good info

look forward to seeing the future version of your testing

good times :rockon:


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: SingularFusion]
    #26986852 - 10/15/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I'm absolutely no expert on this, but there's absolutely more to what determines whether you'll struggle with environmental contamination than the raw numbers of spores in the air and whether or not your grain spawn was contaminated, so having sources of mold spores near clean substrates doesn't mean much except that local spores don't *guarantee* a contamination which is a high-tier duh.

But at least this is loads better than the ole FrankHorrigan who used to get his dick sucked for telling me "my house is full of dogs and I grow just fine" when I talked about local contaminants being an issue for *some* growers, as if fucking DOGS release mold spores or create their environmental conditions  :rofl: that clown really used to be THE Trusted Cultivator and cult hero around this forum and I'll never forget that lol

Probably gonna go comment in that thread linked above too and see what happens lol probably nothing good


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OfflineOne of Us
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26986884 - 10/15/20 11:30 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Nice to  see you around again violet.

Your post is kinda confusing. Could you give me another example of what can cause environmental contamination, besides airborne spores or bad spawn?


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26986903 - 10/15/20 11:44 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

To be sure, you absolutely will not have mold without mold spores, that's why laminar sterile airflow cabinets and still-air boxes work, so "the cause of environmental contamination" is always contaminants in the environment lol.  I'm simply saying that nobody should be surprised when airborne spores don't *guarantee* contamination so this proved nothing whatsoever.

I'm not claiming to know exactly how it all works, and I'm already writing what's probably too long of a comment for that other thread we've mentioned that you should be able to go see soon if you want, but simply enough it's still absolutely possible that a given mycelium in a given state might not win a fight against a specific mold attacker for reasons other than the presence of bacteria in the grains.  Anyone who says it's impossible is about the furthest thing from a credible scientist imaginable despite their strongest pretenses.


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OfflineOne of Us
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26987072 - 10/15/20 01:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I agree somewhat, I mean I'll accept anything if it is proven. Science isn't static and changes everyday. Sure, some things like classical physics aren't gonna change. The P chem book I used when I was in school was written in the 70s, so safe to say no major changes there in the last 50 years. I mean, even computational chemistry has been pretty stagnant.

But you are right, biology is a whole nother beast that has probably thousands of new discoveries everyday.

That said, I do think that the picture posted above is pretty conclusive in that it shows that trich spores in concentrations thousands of times higher than anyone's grow room, has no effect on healthy substrates. If this experiment was repeatable and done a bunch of times, I think the conclusion would definitely be nailed down.

Maybe a higher concentration of spores may have an effect? But testing a higher concentration of spores than in the picture shown above would be kinda absurd, like saying water is toxic. It totally can be, but nobody is gonna drink that much water in the vast majority of cases. For all intents and purposes, outside of a water drinking contest, water is safe and non toxic. Same with airborne spores, if you have strong, clean spawn in a suitable ratio with the substrate, contamination by airborne spores is negligible, if not impossible. At least in theory, but this theory has been shown to be true many times

Or maybe the mycelium is weakened in some other way, be it conditions (temp humidity fae etc) outside the normal range, or mycelium that has been expanded too many times. But again, if you follow the correct growth parameters, and don't over expand the mycelium, this doesn't happen.

Anyway, I am not too stubborn to accept new truths, its just that the proof is in that picture for me. I would need to see something proven otherwise to cause me to change my beliefs.

Problem is, this can be hard to prove with so many variables. If it does get disproven, someone can easily say the spawn used wasn't TOTALLY clean, or some other parameter wasn't perfect.

I am interested to see the experiments from both sides. Smartattack says he's gonna do one to further prove his claims, and also starbones from the other thread said he will try an experiment to prove it the other way. Will be interesting to see, and I will keep an open mind.

I am definitely not gonna argue that a higher spore count is less healthy for the grower though, and should be as low as practically possible.


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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26987086 - 10/15/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I want OP to post pics of taking a hunk of green shit and placing it on a healthy tub that's pinning and see if the spawn is strong enough to combat it or not. Having the stuff in the same room doesn't prove much to me.


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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet] * 1
    #26987099 - 10/15/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
To be sure, you absolutely will not have mold without mold spores, that's why laminar sterile airflow cabinets and still-air boxes work, so "the cause of environmental contamination" is always contaminants in the environment lol.  I'm simply saying that nobody should be surprised when airborne spores don't *guarantee* contamination so this proved nothing whatsoever.

I'm not claiming to know exactly how it all works, and I'm already writing what's probably too long of a comment for that other thread we've mentioned that you should be able to go see soon if you want, but simply enough it's still absolutely possible that a given mycelium in a given state might not win a fight against a specific mold attacker for reasons other than the presence of bacteria in the grains.  Anyone who says it's impossible is about the furthest thing from a credible scientist imaginable despite their strongest pretenses.



I agree and I'm digging this convo as I've kept green around for too long and have mixed feelings about it all. Just to add to this... trich will aerosolize mycelium particles along with the spores. In fact, there may be as much as 320 times the amount of mycelium versus spores in the air if you've got some green growing. And living fragments latch on and grow much more readily than spores. Just some additional info I was reading in the research paper "Fungal Fragments as Indoor Air Biocontaminates."

edit: typo 390->320


Edited by Munchauzen (10/15/20 05:33 PM)


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Invisiblealaskappalachian
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Munchauzen]
    #26987132 - 10/15/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Munchauzen said:

Just to add to this... trich will aerosolize mycelium particles along with the spores. In fact, there may be as much as 390 times the amount of mycelium versus spores in the air if you've got some green growing. And living fragments latch on and grow much more readily than spores. Just some additional info I was reading in the research paper "Fungal Fragments as Indoor Air Biocontaminates."




Always excited to learn something new.  Thanks for that tidbit  Munch! :cookiemonster:


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26987135 - 10/15/20 01:59 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

omfg that's so gross ugh sometimes I hate this practice

that also hugely supports the notion that living local mold can be more detrimental than the mold spores that are always around everywhere anyways


Quote:

One of Us said:
That said, I do think that the picture posted above is pretty conclusive in that it shows that trich spores in concentrations thousands of times higher than anyone's grow room, has no effect on healthy substrates. If this experiment was repeatable and done a bunch of times, I think the conclusion would definitely be nailed down.




But this isn't the only possibility people are saying is open.  When you open-air spawn or use unsealed containers like monotub, we already know for a fact that mold gets into substrates that aren't fully colonized and considered "healthy" yet.

Also experiments such as putting a dusty green chunk of shit on a healthy sub doesn't really tell us much that we don't already know, especially since an established contamination can easily grow onto established mycelium. I want to emphasize "CAN" - whether it will or not could depend on lots of factors, such as the specific genetics of each organism involved, their stage of life, etc


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Edited by Violet (10/15/20 03:29 PM)


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Munchauzen] * 1
    #26987206 - 10/15/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Munchauzen said:
I want OP to post pics of taking a hunk of green shit and placing it on a healthy tub that's pinning and see if the spawn is strong enough to combat it or not. Having the stuff in the same room doesn't prove much to me.





Of course it doesn't prove anything considering the small sample size, but to me it helps show that a high "spore load" in a room doesn't guarantee contaminated substrates.  Which people seem to think, all the time, still to this day.

What would putting a chunk of green shit on a healthy sub do?  Cool to see for science I guess, but in practice who does that? 

Whereas, people get contaminated grows all the time and freak out that their grow room / house is ruined from spore load.  'nam sayin?


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-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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