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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26983647 - 10/13/20 04:29 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-chemical-attack-assad-dourma-weapons-mission-investigate-chlorine-gas-barrel-bomb-a8297856.html

Quote:

Syria says it has invited a mission from the international chemical weapons watchdog to investigate a suspected poison gas attack near Damascus.




Sooooo he invites the inspectors in to inspect a crime scene.... and fails to secure the crime scene... Ok 

Luckily Russia saw the importance and helped clear the air.

:inbred:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26983731 - 10/13/20 05:14 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
At the 3.52 mark from the video you posted.
Which bits would you like me to believe and which bits should I ignore?



I missed where it said Syria didn't allow them to go in.  In fact, at the 4:30 mark, she asked about them not going in due to safety concerns, and his response was "Well, I didn't know that was the reason for not letting them go in.  I didn't feel any security threat at all."

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Sooooo he invites the inspectors in to inspect a crime scene.... and fails to secure the crime scene... Ok



See above comments.  They didn't not go in due to safety concerns, they didn't go in due to UN bickering.  :shrug:

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Luckily Russia saw the importance and helped clear the air.



And the other countries who's reporters went in like the one in the video we just discussed.  :cookiemonster:


--------------------
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/13/20 05:43 PM)


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26983946 - 10/13/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know if this has been posted yet but hey why not. I concede he does say he tested those cylinders and his results provided 'further support to the view there had not been a chemical attack'.


:doublefacepalm:



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26984159 - 10/13/20 09:38 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I don't know if this has been posted yet but hey why not. I concede he does say he tested those cylinders and his results provided 'further support to the view there had not been a chemical attack'.


:doublefacepalm:



No, that particular video hasn't been posted, thanks!  :thumbup:

But I'm confused by your doublefacefalm?


--------------------
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26984239 - 10/13/20 10:32 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What I found most compelling about that video is at 0:36 where he said "The report did not make clear what new findings, facts, information, data, or analysis in the fields of witness testimony, toxicology studies, chemical analysis, and engineering and/or ballistic studies, had resulted in a complete turnaround in the situation..."


--------------------
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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26984265 - 10/13/20 10:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

You're confused? I've just spent the last 5 pages pointing out inconsistencies and then had to watch and post that  :lol: but hey, it is what it is.

I wish he would have clearly spelt out what he found with those gas cylinders that caused him to say that... maybe he will


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26984269 - 10/13/20 10:55 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps I missed something in the last 5 pages.  What inconsistencies are you referring to?  :shrug:


--------------------
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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26984275 - 10/13/20 11:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Did you read this in the YouTube comment section? More pipeline conspiracies.
If this is some kind of hoax against Assad, no one has proved what the motive to do so is.

Quote:

Unlikely that Assad ever gassed his own people and that he was framed - that all of them were false flags or hoaxes.

At the end of 2012, Obama said if Assad used chemical weapons it would justify the US bombing his nation.  In early 2013 a company named Genie Energy made an agreement with Israel to mine the oil resources of the Golan Heights.  In August of 2013 supposed (or perhaps really) Ghouta had a chemical attack and this "justified" the US being involved.

On the strategic board of directors of Genie Energy is Dick Cheney, Rupert Murdoch, Robert Woolsey, Jacob Rothschild, and other unsavory people.

It appears the plan was to destroy Syria, and place a pipeline in from the Golan (which is Syrian land occupied by Israel) to Turkey into Europe.  As long as Assad is the leader, he stands in the way of that.

Russia is trying to put in their own pipelines.  One if the Nordstream II - this goes through Ukraine, and that's part of the reason the US overthrew Ukraine in 2014.  The other is Turkish Stream.

Looks like the war was just to benefit a US company that was well connected to higher ups.  The US did the same thing with Operation PBSuccess - this was to benefit the United Fruit Company - what you now know as Chiquita.





But here's something else to think about.
If Henderson inspected that cylinder, what's to say it wasn't switched AFTER he got there?
That makes as much sense as any scenario :shrug:


Edited by Stable Genius (10/13/20 11:13 PM)


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26984283 - 10/13/20 11:06 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Perhaps I missed something in the last 5 pages.  What inconsistencies are you referring to?  :shrug:




Inconsistencies or evidence showing that those gas cylinders had to fall from above and are the cause.
Isn't that what he's saying as I would have bet my house they were dropped out of a helicoptor spewing chlorine.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26984366 - 10/14/20 12:39 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
But here's something else to think about.
If Henderson inspected that cylinder, what's to say it wasn't switched AFTER he got there?
That makes as much sense as any scenario :shrug:



Sure it's a possibility.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Perhaps I missed something in the last 5 pages.  What inconsistencies are you referring to?  :shrug:



Inconsistencies or evidence showing that those gas cylinders had to fall from above and are the cause.



I'm still confused (sorry).  What are the inconsistencies?  Are you saying at one point he said the cylinders had to fall from above?  Or am not understanding you?


--------------------
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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26984397 - 10/14/20 01:16 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I was talking about me defending a position, pointing out what I think are inconsistencies, and ultimately coming up possibly even more confused than when I started.
  :thumbup:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26984402 - 10/14/20 01:33 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I wish he would have clearly spelt out what he found with those gas cylinders that caused him to say that... maybe he will



Here's a copy of the report.  Maybe more reading than you care to do...


--------------------
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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26984405 - 10/14/20 01:37 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #26984406 - 10/14/20 01:38 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I was talking about me defending a position, pointing out what I think are inconsistencies, and ultimately coming up possibly even more confused than when I started.
  :thumbup:



Ok, now I understand.  Thanks.  :toast:


--------------------
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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26984425 - 10/14/20 02:20 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Point 25, page 6, this is my shorthand takeaway.

Quote:

Regarding the hole smashed in the concrete slab, the force at which the reinforcing steel bar has been bent at 90" does not match the lack of damage on the cylinder.
It does however match the impact of a mortar.




Similar story with the other penetration.

That actually makes sense. I'll read the rest later tonight.


Edited by Stable Genius (10/14/20 02:29 AM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26985372 - 10/14/20 03:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Point 25, page 6, this is my shorthand takeaway.

Quote:

Regarding the hole smashed in the concrete slab, the force at which the reinforcing steel bar has been bent at 90" does not match the lack of damage on the cylinder.
It does however match the impact of a mortar.




Similar story with the other penetration.

That actually makes sense. I'll read the rest later tonight.



How does "that actually makes sense"?

Are you going with the theory that the real canister was replaced with a fake one to make it look like a chemical attack was faked?  Or am I misunderstanding?


--------------------
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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26986451 - 10/15/20 05:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Well, the point that made sense in the evaluation was that those cylinders should have a lot more damage if they did punch holes in the re-enforced concrete roofs.
That means those cylinders did not cause those holes.
It doesn't prove that one of the cylinders wasn't decanted of chlorine, or how the 2 cylinders got up there.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26987241 - 10/15/20 02:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Well, the point that made sense in the evaluation was that those cylinders should have a lot more damage if they did punch holes in the re-enforced concrete roofs.
That means those cylinders did not cause those holes.



Seems that way.  :shrug:

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
It doesn't prove that one of the cylinders wasn't decanted of chlorine, or how the 2 cylinders got up there.



I don't know how you would show how the cylinders got up there.  But this passage was interesting:

Quote:

29. Examination of the cylinder, including paintwork, condition of the metal surfaces, and the mild steel attachments, indicated a significant degree of degradation (corrosion) as a result of weathering in the areas that had been damaged through impact. Whilst it may be speculative to consider it unlikely that an old, rusty, already-damaged cylinder would be deployed from an aircraft; the cylinder showed appearance of having spent some post-damage time being exposed to the elements, and would most likely not have degraded to such an extent in the case of it being inside the bedroom.




--------------------
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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26990390 - 10/17/20 05:20 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Rusty gas cylinders? mmmmm gas cylinders do go rusty over time, you've probably seen as many as me, they aren't perfect, and those look about the right condition.

I went back through some of those pdf's from Wikileaks and apart from the toxicologists not examining the bodies AS WELL AS the report being fiddled with slightly, the main objection was from Henderson and his assertions about
1. the concrete slab
2. the gas cylinder/s 

Is that a fair summary?

So Henderson asserted, and I believed him, that there was no way those holes were punched through that concrete by those cylinders and that the reo(re enforcing bar) was bent back at 90 degrees so more likely caused by a mortar.
Lets look at that

Firstly, there are 2 completely different blast holes.

The first hole.
At the 0.55 second mark and around the 7.19 to 7.23 mark, it is clear the reo IS NOT bent back at 90' like he said, the reo is still in place!
The few places it is bent back it looks likely those bits were bent back by the underside concrete falling away,
which also looks like the concrete had not bonded to the steel properly.
Rust would do that.
Also, at the 4.19 and 8.14 mark, have a look at that big bit of reo, the one holding the end of the cylinder up, the piece that looks like someone threw a metal fence post in with the concrete pour, yeah that bit... it's not the type of reo I'd expect to see in concrete but it's definitely part of the slab... and that cylinder fits it's shape pretty well.
Also, the dent is right on the bend in the end of the cylinder , which I think could account for it remaining in the shape it's in.
I once dropped a light globe 20 feet, onto steel, and it bounced, as it fell perfectly straight. That may be anecdotal but I have seen it.
This hole I think looks highly likely to have been caused by that bottle smashing it after it washed off some speed after hitting the mesh fence/lattice. Incidentally if you go to the 3.22 and again at the 4.28 mark you can see that the mesh lattice is still attached to the balcony.
That to me is significant as the undercarriage is wrapped up in it, which could not be manipulated in the 2 and a half hours between the attack and when it was filmed.

Second hole. Probably the best shot is at 4.56
Initially I was thinking yeah that hole is way too big, but then a few things became apparent.
1. Have a look at the reo, once again, there's not one piece with any concrete stuck to any of it. I could absolutely believe a large chunk of concrete falling away if it has no steel to give it strength. Plus we don't know what mpa rating that concrete was, it could have been suspect as well.
2. If the hole was caused by a mortar why isn't that air con blown off the wall or that timber thing above the window?.... where's the fire damage!? (Same with the first hole?)

Yeah I could believe the second cylinder caused that bigger hole.
As for why it was still full of chlorine, maybe it was because it did fall flat and not on it's end... which does account for the shape of the hole and why the cylinder was still full.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26990717 - 10/17/20 09:26 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Rusty gas cylinders? mmmmm gas cylinders do go rusty over time, you've probably seen as many as me, they aren't perfect, and those look about the right condition.

I went back through some of those pdf's from Wikileaks and apart from the toxicologists not examining the bodies AS WELL AS the report being fiddled with slightly, the main objection was from Henderson and his assertions about
1. the concrete slab
2. the gas cylinder/s 

Is that a fair summary?



The objections came from about 20 members of the inspection team, plus the Ex-OPCW chief, Jose Bustani (who John Bolton helped remove when he didn't play along with the WMDs in Iraq story).  Henderson is one of the few whose mame is public now (actually, the OPCW leaked his name).

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
So Henderson asserted, and I believed him, that there was no way those holes were punched through that concrete by those cylinders and that the reo(re enforcing bar) was bent back at 90 degrees so more likely caused by a mortar.
Lets look at that

Firstly, there are 2 completely different blast holes.

The first hole.
At the 0.55 second mark and around the 7.19 to 7.23 mark, it is clear the reo IS NOT bent back at 90' like he said, the reo is still in place!

The few places it is bent back it looks likely those bits were bent back by the underside concrete falling away,
which also looks like the concrete had not bonded to the steel properly.



I really do appreciate you looking so closely into it, but I don't think he's talking about the rebar at the end of the canister's flight.  :shrug:

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Also, at the 4.19 and 8.14 mark, have a look at that big bit of reo, the one holding the end of the cylinder up, the piece that looks like someone threw a metal fence post in with the concrete pour, yeah that bit... it's not the type of reo I'd expect to see in concrete but it's definitely part of the slab... and that cylinder fits it's shape pretty well.



I agree it does.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Also, the dent is right on the bend in the end of the cylinder , which I think could account for it remaining in the shape it's in.
I once dropped a light globe 20 feet, onto steel, and it bounced, as it fell perfectly straight. That may be anecdotal but I have seen it.
This hole I think looks highly likely to have been caused by that bottle smashing it after it washed off some speed after hitting the mesh fence/lattice. Incidentally if you go to the 3.22 and again at the 4.28 mark you can see that the mesh lattice is still attached to the balcony.
That to me is significant as the undercarriage is wrapped up in it, which could not be manipulated in the 2 and a half hours between the attack and when it was filmed.



I'm not sure what you mean by "the undercarriage is wrapped up in it"?  It seems the bomb is just resting on the lattice?

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Second hole. Probably the best shot is at 4.56
Initially I was thinking yeah that hole is way too big, but then a few things became apparent.
1. Have a look at the reo, once again, there's not one piece with any concrete stuck to any of it. I could absolutely believe a large chunk of concrete falling away if it has no steel to give it strength. Plus we don't know what mpa rating that concrete was, it could have been suspect as well.
2. If the hole was caused by a mortar why isn't that air con blown off the wall or that timber thing above the window?.... where's the fire damage!? (Same with the first hole?)



I see your point, but maybe the explosion happened above that room?


I think the bigger scandal is hiding the engineering findings altogether.  And we have the email stating "“Please get this document out of DRA [Documents Registry Archive]... And please remove all traces, if any, of its delivery/storage/whatever in DRA”.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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