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Omega
No Face

Registered: 09/25/20
Posts: 15
Loc: Lost But Not Losing
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Moses_Davidson said: Spirituality 1. May or may not include an emotional/sensory experience. 2. May or may not include other spiritual beings. 3. Is not caused by psychoactive chemicals.
Hallucination 1. Usually involves an emotional/sensory experience. 2. May or may not include beings which come from inside your mind. 3. May or may not require psychoactive chemicals. 4. May or may not involve spirituality.
I really don't think there is anything spiritual about tripping. Seems to me to be nothing but a waking dream state, with induced stuff that comes from the mind. I think anything that is spiritual there would have been there anyways with or without the hallucinogen.
But maybe I am all wrong. I'm sure some of you have pondered this for many more years than I have. I am anxious to hear some thoughts from those older and more experienced than me.
Spirituality is always there with or without hallucinogens. for everyone, always. some people just dont allow them selves to open up to it. I feel like Hallucinogens just act as a catalyst for our minds to realize nothing is as it seems and makes us more susceptible to breakthroughs or spiritual awakenings.
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Moses_Davidson
Non-Prophet



Registered: 05/21/20
Posts: 613
Last seen: 4 months, 16 days
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Omega]
#26956790 - 09/26/20 10:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: one of the first things I learned in grade 12 was to use as few words as possible to say what you mean.
IKR? Tru dat. Errr,... Srry. Srsly tho,...
If the spiritual experience is your affinity and intent to grow and transcend, then ecstasy and hallucination may be a part of the growth, and are therefore as spiritual as said affinity and intent.
If the spiritual experience is supermundane, and if super mundane is beyond the scope of the laws of nature (the laws of quantum physics, Newtonian physics, laws of general & specific relativity, etc.) it would seem to me that ecstasy or hallucination are fully within the scope of the laws of nature, and therefore not intrinsically spiritual unless something supermundane is brought to the experience. Which, most of the time might not be the case for most people tripping if they are just seeking recreation.
I can see where sex and romance are correlated, similar, and distinct from each other. Likewise I can see where spirituality and hallucinating are correlated etc.
Am I getting that right?
-------------------- "In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill "The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose." J.B.S. Haldane "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." Mark Twain
Edited by Moses_Davidson (09/26/20 10:11 PM)
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,678
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no it means that when you care about something it is like you watch over there
watch yourelf over there
to it
but I agree that taking care of things makes it well
and that one gets it worse from dying
I was just trying to say that you can have a way of being, programming, where some of you is a grid and you are in a grid and it is so that it is like you move your finger attracting it it comes because you are that like who you are tomorrow is a result of who you are today
when you are interested in it and things the natural develpment and occurence after having it as part of your personality is that it comes into your life
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
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Fredinando, I still see more words here than I can digest grammatically - partly due to your Danish primary language. possibly also if your meaning changes from the beginning to the end of each sentence.
Quote:
Moses_Davidson said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: one of the first things I learned in grade 12 was to use as few words as possible to say what you mean.
IKR? Tru dat. Errr,... Srry. Srsly tho,...
If the spiritual experience is your affinity and intent to grow and transcend, then ecstasy and hallucination may be a part of the growth, and are therefore as spiritual as said affinity and intent.
You might wish that your intent at the start of an experience is what makes all that follows spiritual, and this is not possible, transcending occurs as a kind of sustained motive. this can explain why masters are found to have serious character flaws in spite of their spiritual "achievements". eg. sometimes they indulge in sex without normative moral observance (pedophilia,etc.).
good deeds after being done are done, and one will need to continue supporting them (as a gardener tends the garden), otherwise one may go Disney style and use plastic flowers and inflated plastic goodness which is longer lasting but mosly devoid of spirit even if full of captured prana.
Quote:
Moses_Davidson said: If the spiritual experience is supermundane, and if super mundane is beyond the scope of the laws of nature (the laws of quantum physics, Newtonian physics, laws of general & specific relativity, etc.) it would seem to me that ecstasy or hallucination are fully within the scope of the laws of nature, and therefore not intrinsically spiritual unless something supermundane is brought to the experience. Which, most of the time might not be the case for most people tripping if they are just seeking recreation.
I can see where sex and romance are correlated, similar, and distinct from each other. Likewise I can see where spirituality and hallucinating are correlated etc.
Am I getting that right?
By this measure (if can be mapped to physics and chemistry then not spiritual) nothing is spiritual. I would declare that physics and chemistry and biology and geography are all functional domains in which to seek and develop spirituality. real is more real than not real.
I would point out the difference between symphonic music (spiritual at least 50% of the time, and more if you are inclined) to the roar of a jet plane and the buzzing of tinnitus (not spiritual more than 95%).
the arrangements of uplifting rhythms, combinations, and sequences - the very idea that people are considerate enough to prepare and perform such a beautiful thing are intrinsically spiritual, while haphazard machines give cacophony unless artfully composed.
in a word (three words maybe) what is "not haphazardly arranged" is likely to be spiritual, but then, politics will screw that one up big time, as we have observed. eg. TRUMPISM is viewed to not be haphazardly composed - though to most of us it is pure cacophony.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo


Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,658
Last seen: 3 days, 7 hours
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hallucinatory experiences are largely shaped by culture. if you grow up in a culture that values spiritual experiences, and you see a ghost, more reality will be attributed to the ghostly image versus someone who grows up in a culture that is materialistic and scientifically oriented. an experience can make its own mold, and one shouldn't let expectations of what something is or is not, define how that perception is assimilated.
are hallucinations just a way for the human spirit to creatively interact with material existence?
do hallucinations allow for the realization of a richer experience of earth?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
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it is richer in the moment when on psychedelic, but cannot always be richer.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,678
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it is like smiling at something and leaning into it and that way it comes
I highly recommend it
it is like you are lying and turn towards the desired thing and lean into it and
turn you both turn left and right and you look towards it
and you want it/look to it/appreciate it
it is like a practice of drawing in all good fish
you have to have so open minded that you see everything and think of everything as hit is
that way when you don't anti-prefer everything in total
and like appreciate it see the beauty in it
you will attract the big fish
because who you are tomorrow is a result of who you are today
so one of the best things is to see everything have it all in your mind be open minded your head is open as when you experience something you see all of it the good and the bad and you think of it as it is
how did buddha get there?
surely when you have a mind that sees it all in reality you will get there because some territory is preferably over other and you'll do good you'll do better it chooses the good terriroty over the other
like this is happens
how can it be different
when the world is that way and the truth is that way how could de best not come
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Ferdinando]
#26984550 - 10/14/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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pretty good summation so far, keep studying and learning.
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,678
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good point I will do that while you guys do psychedelics...
damn needing a break
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,678
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Ferdinando]
#26984575 - 10/14/20 06:48 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have gotten to the point of wanting to do pschedelics...
but I can't as in it would be negative 
it happens but I will get past it
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Ferdinando]
#26984578 - 10/14/20 06:51 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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it's extra to all the stuff in your garden already
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,678
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at least studying will keep me getting things done
when done all the time (getting things done) or almost all the time this is the best way to live one's life
like the buddhism stuff
the money stuff
the weeds stuff
so many fields can be accomplished with this (getting things done all the time or almost all the time)
I mean even if there are critique points in your life and ... you know when it's the best way to live one's life there can be so many things but I still live life in the best way so it's like all those bad things it's like they are not there and I don't get things done as much down to 2 hours a day or nothing like they will be equally good or I'm still doing good
so if I have financial issues and many weeds in my garden and things like this I can still live life in a good way that is like having no bad things in my life and getting a little done every day
because it is that good
and preferable
and important
if it's except two hours a day then you hit the sweet spot a sweet spot of how to live life
if it's 4 then not that much worse
lower than this we don't hit the mark of living life in the best way
but if one goes less than except 6 hours then it is important to increase
and increase to all the time or almost all the time
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
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Re: Spirituality vs. Halucinating [Re: Ferdinando]
#26984922 - 10/14/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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it's like traction or connection. in fact everything is about connection.
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karri0n
Mind Traveller



Registered: 08/29/20
Posts: 698
Last seen: 10 days, 2 hours
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I want to just put out there that "Hallucination" is a medical term just meaning to perceive something that isn't there, and in regard to the psychedelic state is frequently more of a "side effect".
Psychedelics may be referred to as hallucinogens but that's a relic of the "dark ages".
I agree with your premise and others' premise in this thread.
I feel that the psychedelic state, just like other altered states and forms of trance such as meditation, near-death experience, intensely painful rituals to introduce altered state, sensory deprivation, etc. Can put the mind in a state where spirituality is much more accessible.
I also truly believe that there are people who simply aren't very spiritual and even on a psychedelic substance won't suddenly become so.
I think more likely is that how "connected with spirit" someone is is on a bell curve just like every other trait in humans.
Most people aren't Christian JUST because of indoctrination. Many have real spiritual experiences in church and with their god, and don't know any paths to spirit other than what they have been taught by the church.
Some people haven't touched a drug in their life and have found their place is not in the material world, so they go somewhere and pray or meditate for the majority of their lives.
A lot of people will be catapulted into that mode of existence when they have a reality-breaking trip. A lot of others may simply open up to spirit enough to hear some wisdom from the universe for the first time when they have a lower level trip. Still others attain spiritual states from just cannabis but won't be spiritual at all otherwise.
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Panaeolus Bisporus
Edited by karri0n (10/16/20 02:46 PM)
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