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InvisibleSmartattack
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Embracing the trich. * 9
    #26983886 - 10/13/20 06:51 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Yo.


  So I kinda had a huge pile of shrooms around late spring and have not been going super heavy lately and with what I am doing Im doing it pretty half hearted.  Just keeping cultures going and doing a few transfers when time allows and some cloning. Anyways,  Ive been at this point where I dont really have the time or motivation at the moment to do everything to my normal standard....


  So basically I decided I was gunna roll dirty for a while...in the name of science and just because why not,  My supply is good so I can afford to have some fun for a bit.


  Now to be upfront here,  this was just me putting myself through the rigors of an ordeal most would cringe at but gets down to something myself and others have been preaching for some time.  Im referring to the idea that trich in your grow area is bad.  There are those of us who throw a lot around the forum about clean spawn = clean tubs.  Ive firmly believed in this since day one, however at the same time never REALLY pushed that ideology in my own space beyond just not sweating it when trich did happen.  This Isnt something I have documented with fancy photos or anything but just my own personal anecdote Id like to share with you all.  Though I do have some interesting thread ideas for the future based around this :awesomenod:


  What I did here is not so much about me doing something but about not doing some things:grin:  I basically had a few tubs trich out a couple months ago that were bad enough that the tubs never got a single fruit.  Well, rather than ditching the tubs carefully and washing them... i left them in the corner... for months.  I let them go full green until they looked like florist foam blocks and made sure to open them up once in a while,  right near all my cult shit and other fruiting tubs and my spawn jars.  All my shit.  Then after sucessfuly harvesting a few tubs, I let the remnants go green.  In total I was rocking nearly a dozen tubs with a bunch of trich all up in my shit.


  So Ive continued to cult.  And to be clear here,  Im not skimping on any sterile tech,  using my flow hood and sticking with my PC cycles ETC.  The only thing Im not doing is giving a fuck that Im surrounded by a forest of green.  Im now a half dozen large tubs in and have been growing some really nice and totally clean tubs that are fruiting right along next to green monsters,  lids lifted, fans blowing,  the works.  I will also add that I am keeping my unused agar plates somewhere else. :lol:


  All I have to conclude is what I already felt I knew all along,  healthy spawn = healthy tubs.  Im fully prepared to lol every time I see someone posting that a small patch of green will permanently ruin a grow area.  If you are getting this shit folks,  you are doing something wrong PRIOR to spawning, Im for damn sure positive at this point that a clean batch of spawn is nearly invulnerable to trich within the time-frame that it takes for it to flush,  even 2nd flush.  Ive never personally cared beyond flush 2 anyways so take that as you will.


  I understand there will now be flurry of opposing anecdotes and that is fine.  And to be honest I did this weekend clean up my shit and reset,  just because thats my typical M.O.,  not out of fear.  From here on out my mind is however going to be at a new level of ease about yet another thing.  I swear this stuff is easier than anyone is willing to say it is.  Again I realize that this is very old news to many folks,  just had to really cement it into my own mind with a real life experiment.


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OfflineLeafyClark
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack]
    #26983915 - 10/13/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

hell yeah, i like this brah  :rockon:


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InvisiblePsicomb
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack]
    #26983922 - 10/13/20 07:16 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

You're the fucking man for writing this up.  As you said, it confirms what many of us have suspected but never knew for certain.  Kinda like how with Eat's UnBucket tek it seems like it shouldn't work because of all the history with bucket tek / pasteurization of substrates with cubes......but it does.  Clean spawn is king.


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Offlinediegosf
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Psicomb]
    #26983945 - 10/13/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Well..
So it means that you dont even need to bother to pasteurize the substrate you are going to spawn to?
Coir, vermiculite, even, i dunno, manure?
Or there is some substrates that could possibly contaminate and some that doesnt?


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InvisibleSmartattack
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: diegosf]
    #26983949 - 10/13/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

diegosf said:
Well..
So it means that you dont even need to bother to pasteurize the substrate you are going to spawn to?
Coir, vermiculite, even, i dunno, manure?
Or there is some substrates that could possibly contaminate and some that doesnt?





To be clear, this experiment pertains only to trich. There are obviously many other contaminates out there. I'd certainly not condone embracing them all.
:lolsy:


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InvisiblePsicomb
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: diegosf]
    #26984011 - 10/13/20 08:11 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

diegosf said:
Well..
So it means that you dont even need to bother to pasteurize the substrate you are going to spawn to?
Coir, vermiculite, even, i dunno, manure?
Or there is some substrates that could possibly contaminate and some that doesnt?




Some contaminate, some don't.  Coir and verm are quite resistant despite being naturally dirty and EatYuAlive wrote up a good tek showing that pasteurization isnt necessary, nor is boiling water.

Yeah smartattack is right tho haha it's best to experiment and see and not say it's the truth for all substrates because it's not.  However I have seen folks (including myself) succeed consistently with coir/verm with tap water hydration (warm and cold), black kow manure as well.  Hard to say where exactly the line gets drawn!


--------------------

When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something
- nick sand


Edited by Psicomb (10/13/20 08:12 PM)


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InvisibleSmartattack
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Psicomb] * 2
    #26985898 - 10/14/20 07:40 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

It probably wasn't fair of me to tease my future ideas, so Im giving a teaser for all to look out for when I get around to it. Im intending ( at some point after I focus for a while on real shit ) to do another full on experiment thread with pics and progress to show this process but in an even more extreme manner. My plan is:

Grow a bunch of trich and harvest as many spores as possible ( Ive got a few plans for this ) and spawn a tub of nice shiny clean spawn. After spawning, what I would like to do is intentionally introduce massive amounts raw trich spore directly into the grow and document the progress of the tub photographically.

:youseethisshit:

Its stupid...and dumb. But winter is coming and I do believe that time to spare will likely be coming at me in spades, so for the entertainment of all, why the hell not?


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OfflineOne of Us
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack] * 1
    #26985938 - 10/14/20 08:07 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Thats a really good idea

Idk if you saw it, but there was this other thread today that was on a similar topic. It may have gotten a bit aggressive, but some good conversation and information came out of it.

Anyway, in it someone showed this pic, maybe it can give you some ideas:

Quote:

Boogieman47 said:


Another reason I love these bags .. notice anything?? Second flush




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InvisibleSmartattack
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26986012 - 10/14/20 08:58 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Oooh I missed that. That is awesome.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack]
    #26986371 - 10/15/20 02:34 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Been telling people this for years.  :thumbup:

I should bookmark this...


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OfflineSingularFusion
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Forrester]
    #26986490 - 10/15/20 06:11 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks Smartattack

good info

look forward to seeing the future version of your testing

good times :rockon:


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: SingularFusion]
    #26986852 - 10/15/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I'm absolutely no expert on this, but there's absolutely more to what determines whether you'll struggle with environmental contamination than the raw numbers of spores in the air and whether or not your grain spawn was contaminated, so having sources of mold spores near clean substrates doesn't mean much except that local spores don't *guarantee* a contamination which is a high-tier duh.

But at least this is loads better than the ole FrankHorrigan who used to get his dick sucked for telling me "my house is full of dogs and I grow just fine" when I talked about local contaminants being an issue for *some* growers, as if fucking DOGS release mold spores or create their environmental conditions  :rofl: that clown really used to be THE Trusted Cultivator and cult hero around this forum and I'll never forget that lol

Probably gonna go comment in that thread linked above too and see what happens lol probably nothing good


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OfflineOne of Us
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26986884 - 10/15/20 11:30 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Nice to  see you around again violet.

Your post is kinda confusing. Could you give me another example of what can cause environmental contamination, besides airborne spores or bad spawn?


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26986903 - 10/15/20 11:44 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

To be sure, you absolutely will not have mold without mold spores, that's why laminar sterile airflow cabinets and still-air boxes work, so "the cause of environmental contamination" is always contaminants in the environment lol.  I'm simply saying that nobody should be surprised when airborne spores don't *guarantee* contamination so this proved nothing whatsoever.

I'm not claiming to know exactly how it all works, and I'm already writing what's probably too long of a comment for that other thread we've mentioned that you should be able to go see soon if you want, but simply enough it's still absolutely possible that a given mycelium in a given state might not win a fight against a specific mold attacker for reasons other than the presence of bacteria in the grains.  Anyone who says it's impossible is about the furthest thing from a credible scientist imaginable despite their strongest pretenses.


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OfflineOne of Us
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26987072 - 10/15/20 01:15 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I agree somewhat, I mean I'll accept anything if it is proven. Science isn't static and changes everyday. Sure, some things like classical physics aren't gonna change. The P chem book I used when I was in school was written in the 70s, so safe to say no major changes there in the last 50 years. I mean, even computational chemistry has been pretty stagnant.

But you are right, biology is a whole nother beast that has probably thousands of new discoveries everyday.

That said, I do think that the picture posted above is pretty conclusive in that it shows that trich spores in concentrations thousands of times higher than anyone's grow room, has no effect on healthy substrates. If this experiment was repeatable and done a bunch of times, I think the conclusion would definitely be nailed down.

Maybe a higher concentration of spores may have an effect? But testing a higher concentration of spores than in the picture shown above would be kinda absurd, like saying water is toxic. It totally can be, but nobody is gonna drink that much water in the vast majority of cases. For all intents and purposes, outside of a water drinking contest, water is safe and non toxic. Same with airborne spores, if you have strong, clean spawn in a suitable ratio with the substrate, contamination by airborne spores is negligible, if not impossible. At least in theory, but this theory has been shown to be true many times

Or maybe the mycelium is weakened in some other way, be it conditions (temp humidity fae etc) outside the normal range, or mycelium that has been expanded too many times. But again, if you follow the correct growth parameters, and don't over expand the mycelium, this doesn't happen.

Anyway, I am not too stubborn to accept new truths, its just that the proof is in that picture for me. I would need to see something proven otherwise to cause me to change my beliefs.

Problem is, this can be hard to prove with so many variables. If it does get disproven, someone can easily say the spawn used wasn't TOTALLY clean, or some other parameter wasn't perfect.

I am interested to see the experiments from both sides. Smartattack says he's gonna do one to further prove his claims, and also starbones from the other thread said he will try an experiment to prove it the other way. Will be interesting to see, and I will keep an open mind.

I am definitely not gonna argue that a higher spore count is less healthy for the grower though, and should be as low as practically possible.


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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26987086 - 10/15/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I want OP to post pics of taking a hunk of green shit and placing it on a healthy tub that's pinning and see if the spawn is strong enough to combat it or not. Having the stuff in the same room doesn't prove much to me.


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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet] * 1
    #26987099 - 10/15/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
To be sure, you absolutely will not have mold without mold spores, that's why laminar sterile airflow cabinets and still-air boxes work, so "the cause of environmental contamination" is always contaminants in the environment lol.  I'm simply saying that nobody should be surprised when airborne spores don't *guarantee* contamination so this proved nothing whatsoever.

I'm not claiming to know exactly how it all works, and I'm already writing what's probably too long of a comment for that other thread we've mentioned that you should be able to go see soon if you want, but simply enough it's still absolutely possible that a given mycelium in a given state might not win a fight against a specific mold attacker for reasons other than the presence of bacteria in the grains.  Anyone who says it's impossible is about the furthest thing from a credible scientist imaginable despite their strongest pretenses.



I agree and I'm digging this convo as I've kept green around for too long and have mixed feelings about it all. Just to add to this... trich will aerosolize mycelium particles along with the spores. In fact, there may be as much as 320 times the amount of mycelium versus spores in the air if you've got some green growing. And living fragments latch on and grow much more readily than spores. Just some additional info I was reading in the research paper "Fungal Fragments as Indoor Air Biocontaminates."

edit: typo 390->320


Edited by Munchauzen (10/15/20 05:33 PM)


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Invisiblealaskappalachian
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Munchauzen]
    #26987132 - 10/15/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Munchauzen said:

Just to add to this... trich will aerosolize mycelium particles along with the spores. In fact, there may be as much as 390 times the amount of mycelium versus spores in the air if you've got some green growing. And living fragments latch on and grow much more readily than spores. Just some additional info I was reading in the research paper "Fungal Fragments as Indoor Air Biocontaminates."




Always excited to learn something new.  Thanks for that tidbit  Munch! :cookiemonster:


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26987135 - 10/15/20 01:59 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

omfg that's so gross ugh sometimes I hate this practice

that also hugely supports the notion that living local mold can be more detrimental than the mold spores that are always around everywhere anyways


Quote:

One of Us said:
That said, I do think that the picture posted above is pretty conclusive in that it shows that trich spores in concentrations thousands of times higher than anyone's grow room, has no effect on healthy substrates. If this experiment was repeatable and done a bunch of times, I think the conclusion would definitely be nailed down.




But this isn't the only possibility people are saying is open.  When you open-air spawn or use unsealed containers like monotub, we already know for a fact that mold gets into substrates that aren't fully colonized and considered "healthy" yet.

Also experiments such as putting a dusty green chunk of shit on a healthy sub doesn't really tell us much that we don't already know, especially since an established contamination can easily grow onto established mycelium. I want to emphasize "CAN" - whether it will or not could depend on lots of factors, such as the specific genetics of each organism involved, their stage of life, etc


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Edited by Violet (10/15/20 03:29 PM)


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Munchauzen] * 1
    #26987206 - 10/15/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Munchauzen said:
I want OP to post pics of taking a hunk of green shit and placing it on a healthy tub that's pinning and see if the spawn is strong enough to combat it or not. Having the stuff in the same room doesn't prove much to me.





Of course it doesn't prove anything considering the small sample size, but to me it helps show that a high "spore load" in a room doesn't guarantee contaminated substrates.  Which people seem to think, all the time, still to this day.

What would putting a chunk of green shit on a healthy sub do?  Cool to see for science I guess, but in practice who does that? 

Whereas, people get contaminated grows all the time and freak out that their grow room / house is ruined from spore load.  'nam sayin?


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InvisibleSmartattack
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Forrester]
    #26987316 - 10/15/20 03:41 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:

Whereas, people get contaminated grows all the time and freak out that their grow room / house is ruined from spore load.  'nam sayin?





To be clear. This is the only thing I'm really intending to target here. People can go all off the rails all they want and head down the rabbit hole of the intricacies of contamination. My hopes are to get into the ears of people who likely waste a shitload of time and resources "sanitizing" their air and workspace after a bad damn tub.

I used to be way more anal, and had more trich than when bombing my shit on purpose with the stuff. I can only conclude that I got better at making spawn and all the rest was not an actual variable all along. Or a small enough variable that my brainpower and time is better used on almost any other given aspect of cultivating.


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack]
    #26987338 - 10/15/20 03:54 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smartattack said:
My hopes are to get into the ears of people who likely waste a shitload of time and resources "sanitizing" their air and workspace after a bad damn tub.




Eh... This statement below from earlier, brought to us by someone reading scientific research papers, has already done more to validate concerns with environmental contaminants than experiments like yours could ever do to invalidate them for reasons stated earlier, and we have other additional reasons to clean the air in mushroom cultivation anyway.

Quote:

Munchauzen said:
Just to add to this... trich will aerosolize mycelium particles along with the spores. In fact, there may be as much as 390 times the amount of mycelium versus spores in the air if you've got some green growing. And living fragments latch on and grow much more readily than spores. Just some additional info I was reading in the research paper "Fungal Fragments as Indoor Air Biocontaminates."




For sure though, getting better at making spawn and thoroughly sterilizing it is important. For a while I went on about trying to minimize my sterilizer cook times when using plastic containers for energy efficiency and learned pretty quickly not to by very much due to bacteria, and early on in learning cultivation if I didn't hydrate grains fully it practically wouldn't matter if I sterilized them for 2 hours. So yeah, getting spawn improved is definitely far far far more important than cleaning the air, and "wasting a shitload of time and resources sanitizing their air and workspace" wouldn't be the place to start, nor would most of those resources and efforts pay off anyway, like bleaching which only kills things on a smooth non-porous surface and actually kinda "feeds" mold otherwise.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26987369 - 10/15/20 04:21 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I feel like what smartattack is saying isnt out of the realm of possibility when speaking as a more universal truth rather than anecdote.  That's a pretty decent clandestine experiment imo. I perceive it as a testament to the contam resistance of coir/verm in conjunction with clean spawn, but mainly focusing on the spawn since I've seen people here have coir contam in buckets after a few weeks or so. 

Munch, I heard somewhere you used to grow in a barn or farmhouse or something? What kind of themes did you notice, if any, with contams there? I feel like that could also be some valuable information too

Also, what about certain molds being more powerful against clean myc than others? We are talking only about da green but i wonder certain molds that can consistently overpower a colonized clean tub


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Edited by Psicomb (10/15/20 04:25 PM)


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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Forrester]
    #26987427 - 10/15/20 05:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

Munchauzen said:
What would putting a chunk of green shit on a healthy sub do?  Cool to see for science I guess, but in practice who does that?






its just me thinking back to a thread yesterday of a cube farm that had pvc piping connected all the tubs. user claimed it was a contamination nightmare... and I was just thinking about all the mold mycelium that gets aerosolized and blown from one tub to another. I said something about putting a piece of moldy bread on a healthy tub would be bad news bears. just wanna see how well the cube myc holds up against the trich myc. i know that answer tbh, but ya.

I don't really subscribe to the sporeload issue as far as cube growing goes. I've traditionally let moldy tubs sit longer than I should and its never really affected anything. When I'm being lazy, I just move them out of the growing area and toss em in my laundry room.

My current theory is that the sporeload from mold isn't an issue, its the living mold itself. Its like when we see noobs cutting mold out of monos, then they act surprised when the mold shows up 1-2 days later in even greater fashion. We've always told ppl cutting the myc fragments it, which then colonizes subs super easy and goes to town.

From what I've been reading, you don't even have to cut it, just let it sporulate, and it'll send tons of fragments out into the air itself without any cutting. So perhaps this is why the salt method has been effective at keeping the mold from spreading too drastically. It prevents the airborne distribution of fragments.

I did bad in science, guys. And I'm super stoned right now. I hope this isn't all ridiculousness.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Psicomb]
    #26987431 - 10/15/20 05:24 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Psicomvb said:
Munch, I heard somewhere you used to grow in a barn or farmhouse or something? What kind of themes did you notice, if any, with contams there? I feel like that could also be some valuable information too

Also, what about certain molds being more powerful against clean myc than others? We are talking only about da green but i wonder certain molds that can consistently overpower a colonized clean tub



:confused: naw not me. apartment dweller here.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26987433 - 10/15/20 05:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

Smartattack said:
My hopes are to get into the ears of people who likely waste a shitload of time and resources "sanitizing" their air and workspace after a bad damn tub.




Eh... This statement below from earlier, brought to us by someone reading scientific research papers, has already done more to validate concerns with environmental contaminants than experiments like yours could ever do to invalidate them for reasons stated earlier, and we have other additional reasons to clean the air in mushroom cultivation anyway.

Quote:

Munchauzen said:
Just to add to this... trich will aerosolize mycelium particles along with the spores. In fact, there may be as much as 390 times the amount of mycelium versus spores in the air if you've got some green growing. And living fragments latch on and grow much more readily than spores. Just some additional info I was reading in the research paper "Fungal Fragments as Indoor Air Biocontaminates."




For sure though, getting better at making spawn and thoroughly sterilizing it is important. For a while I went on about trying to minimize my sterilizer cook times when using plastic containers for energy efficiency and learned pretty quickly not to by very much due to bacteria, and early on in learning cultivation if I didn't hydrate grains fully it practically wouldn't matter if I sterilized them for 2 hours. So yeah, getting spawn improved is definitely far far far more important than cleaning the air, and "wasting a shitload of time and resources sanitizing their air and workspace" wouldn't be the place to start, nor would most of those resources and efforts pay off anyway, like bleaching which only kills things on a smooth non-porous surface and actually kinda "feeds" mold otherwise.





I don't  know if you can discount smartattacks (or the picture's) actual experimental data with the facts munch posted.

It reminds me of  the idea of theoretical yield vs percent yield in chemistry.  I'll explain:

If you are carrying out a particular chemical reaction, the theoretical yield is what you get when you balance a chemical reaction like you probably did in school. You look at the reactants and the atoms contained in them and determine that for x number of reactants you have the atoms needed to produce y amount of product. This looks good on paper but doesn't actually happen in the vast majority of cases. Many reactions won't occur at all. It is only when you actually carry out the reaction, that you learn the percent yield, that is, what percentage of the theoretical yield that will actually happen.

Munch showed that there is another reactant to consider. The aerosolized mycelium. But actually carrying out the experiment, as shown in the picture and smarts experience, we see that the aerosolized mycelium has little effect on the substrate. Does that make sense?

Experimental data is more valuable than theoretical data. You would assume that aerosolized mycelium would wreck havoc on a grow. Yet in actual practice, this is not the case.

Edit: Also, I don't believe the word trichoderma appears anywhere in the research paper mentioned


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26987451 - 10/15/20 05:42 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Well they looked at 3 different mold species and from what I gathered, all were aerosolizing. My own logic is that the sporulation is such an explosive event, it causes the fragmentation of the spore producing body and surrounding area. I'm trying to find some microscope footage of sporulation right now.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Munchauzen]
    #26987457 - 10/15/20 05:47 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

btw I found that article just last week cause I helped my friend move a fishtank to a new stand after it had leaked a little bit. The old wooden stand had a towel between it and the tank. I lifted the towel a little bit, and saw nothing but mold mycelium. and the towel was all kinds of greens, browns, and blacks. Also of note, is that my friend has been having increased asthma issues in the past few months as well. was pretty shocked to see the tidbit about mycelium getting airborne at up to 320 times the amount of spores and how that has health effects.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Munchauzen]
    #26987503 - 10/15/20 06:38 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

It says "In contrast to spores, the release of fragments from smooth surfaces was not affected by air velocity, indicating a different release mechanism."

I found the research as well just a bit ago and posted it in the other thread, I'll put it here too
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC126767/


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Munchauzen]
    #26987507 - 10/15/20 06:41 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Ah shit my bad, I thought you grew in some ancient farmhouse or something haha I wonder who I am thinking of now ???


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Psicomb]
    #26987513 - 10/15/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

oh sweet thanks I hadn't had the chance to read over it to well, just pulled it up on my phone after moving that fish tank last week trying to prove a point 

different release mechanism :takingnotes:


Edited by Munchauzen (10/15/20 06:56 PM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26987589 - 10/15/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

Smartattack said:
My hopes are to get into the ears of people who likely waste a shitload of time and resources "sanitizing" their air and workspace after a bad damn tub.




Eh... This statement below from earlier, brought to us by someone reading scientific research papers, has already done more to validate concerns with environmental contaminants than experiments like yours could ever do to invalidate them for reasons stated earlier, and we have other additional reasons to clean the air in mushroom cultivation anyway.

Quote:

Munchauzen said:
Just to add to this... trich will aerosolize mycelium particles along with the spores. In fact, there may be as much as 390 times the amount of mycelium versus spores in the air if you've got some green growing. And living fragments latch on and grow much more readily than spores. Just some additional info I was reading in the research paper "Fungal Fragments as Indoor Air Biocontaminates."




For sure though, getting better at making spawn and thoroughly sterilizing it is important. For a while I went on about trying to minimize my sterilizer cook times when using plastic containers for energy efficiency and learned pretty quickly not to by very much due to bacteria, and early on in learning cultivation if I didn't hydrate grains fully it practically wouldn't matter if I sterilized them for 2 hours. So yeah, getting spawn improved is definitely far far far more important than cleaning the air, and "wasting a shitload of time and resources sanitizing their air and workspace" wouldn't be the place to start, nor would most of those resources and efforts pay off anyway, like bleaching which only kills things on a smooth non-porous surface and actually kinda "feeds" mold otherwise.





Im at ease in being on the side of the fence Im on, given the whole proving a negative conundrum. If presence of trich in the grow space is an issue, luckily the burden of proof is on those who state so.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack]
    #26987628 - 10/15/20 08:32 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

am i supposed to read this and think that its okay to leave molding tubs inside?


Edited by smalltalk_canceled (10/15/20 08:34 PM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: smalltalk_canceled]
    #26987633 - 10/15/20 08:37 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

No, you are supposed to take away that, if your tubs are always failing, its probably not spores in the air causing it


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Edited by One of Us (10/15/20 08:38 PM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: smalltalk_canceled]
    #26987636 - 10/15/20 08:38 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Smartattack said:
Im at ease in being on the side of the fence Im on, given the whole proving a negative conundrum. If presence of trich in the grow space is an issue, luckily the burden of proof is on those who state so.




Well between the work of scientists and professional mushroom farmers, that hasn't appeared very difficult for us to do, not that anonymous forum randos will necessarily take note accordingly.

So that's what "proving the negative" means now? Herm.
In a paper called "You Can Prove a Negative," which I just googled again to find was written by Steven D. Hales, he explains how "you can't prove a negative" is a principle of folk logic, not actual logic.
I won't get much into it myself, but at least note that "you can't prove a negative" is itself a negative, so if it were true it would itself be unprovable.

Anyways, rather it's not having substrates near contams also contam that doesn't "prove the negative" in the way I believe you meant it. Something not happening in a thousand incidents of anecdotal experience won't prove it can't happen in the next much less in a different scenario entirely.

But I suppose whenever your knee-jerk reaction to seeing contamination is "bad spawn, I'm never wrong" then you can always easily convince yourself that opposing evidence is supporting evidence.

Especially when the nature of your initial contam is in question in the first place....



"Then after successfully harvesting a few tubs, I let the remnants go green."

Oh they went green did they :sherlock:
no second flush or anything? one blow-out and then came the green?
I wonder if that might be worth noting otherwise or if it can just stay in the pile with the rest of the confirmation biases.


Besides, the best solution to suppress the successes of environmental contams is frequent air exchange and occasional humidity fluctuations, as outlined by Stamets in GGMM and as known by, like, every real cultivator worth more salt than forum randos that let their grow space get disgusting and still manage to grow Cubensis of all things.  It seems from your OP you're doing those things just fine, so if anything you're indicating that environmental contam problems can often be dealt with simply via good technique, not that they are never a problem.


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Edited by Violet (10/15/20 08:46 PM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26987650 - 10/15/20 08:50 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said: so if anything you're indicating that environmental contam problems can be dealt with via good technique, not that they are never a problem.




Exactly what I've been saying. I don't think anyone is saying different. If you have a problem, you need to fix your sterile technique or grain prep or choice in cultures. Filtering the air won't help much for tubs that contam before flushing


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet] * 1
    #26987656 - 10/15/20 08:54 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Ok. Perhaps the proof of negative isn't the best way to put it. What I was getting at is that if somebody says that lots of sporeload does make a difference then the burden is on them to prove that the spawn was truly clean in the first place.


My best analogy would be something like this. If I say that walking into the ocean makes you wet, and I then walk in and back out of the water - returning wet, you would be wise to ask me to prove that I was not wet before I went in. However If I stated that going into the ocean will not make me wet, and i come out dry, There is no point in me proving whether I was dry or not prior to doing so. Had I been dry before, the ocean did not change that fact, and had I been wet, it only proves my position even further. Ill assume that's clear as mud  :lol:


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack]
    #26987701 - 10/15/20 09:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

One of Us said:
Quote:

Violet said: so if anything you're indicating that environmental contam problems can be dealt with via good technique, not that they are never a problem.




Exactly what I've been saying. I don't think anyone is saying different. If you have a problem, you need to fix your sterile technique or grain prep or choice in cultures. Filtering the air won't help much for tubs that contam before flushing




Maybe not quite exactly what you've been saying.
I had a problem where "fixing" my sterile technique, grain prep, and choice in cultures was not the solution.
I had to eliminate open-air spawning and the colonization of substrates in unclean environments (both of which meant no monos) to eliminate colonization contams, as well as make a point to increase airflow and program humidity drops in my greenhouses as per Stamets to reduce surface contaminations in fruiting. It helped a ton at least; it was the first thing that really did.

That's closer to what I meant by "good technique" (many of my posts are so long because I have come to regret times I under-explain myself in the interest of staying brief).
Not the everyday meaning it's meant around here of doing the basics correctly, but rather the process of providing conditions that help push back against specific problems you're having, with the intent to express that OP might as well be thought of as having unknowingly simultaneously stifled the problem he was trying to see existed.  Someone who wasn't treating their grow room the same way but didn't have a bloom of mold contams until one initially hung around in the grow environment might take the effect of environmental contaminations more seriously and find things like constant fans running as a solution, a solution OP implemented before experiencing the problem that it could help solve, therefore personally minimizing his belief in the problem itself due to that experience.


Tho it's true that running a flow hood in the area didn't really improve my issue enough to be happy, so just like in the other thread I'm definitely not saying filtering air is THE solution to end all.
But even then you won't get me to say that reducing environmental contams doesn't.... reduce the threat... of environmental contams...

And I cannot emphasize enough how different environments could possibly change everything. The disparity that will appear on this topic between people living in Siberia and Brazil may be huge. Just for one instance, if you have a 90% ambient humidity you can't really create the humidity drops I mentioned above that would kill surface mold before they establish themselves, and you might end up thinking an environmental contamination is a bigger issue than some North American bro that runs a fan constantly and thinks his outcome means clean spawn is more than just the thing of initial importance but the magic to the whole shebang top to bottom.


I don't exactly have my finger to the pulse of all the factors I might bring much less all the ones that might exist, but absolutely neither do people who think threads like this "prove" conclusions like this.


Besides, "healthy spawn = healthy tubs" is assuming all other factors are perfect too. "Healthy spawn + properly prepared substrate + well-tuned conditions = healthy tubs" is at least infinitely closer to the truth in a complicated world like this one.


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Edited by Violet (10/15/20 10:13 PM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26987722 - 10/15/20 10:08 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

But what you are describing is just dialing in your fruiting chamber to your environment. Evaporation (humidity drops) is a pinning trigger and is emphasized in every modern mono tek. If you live in Brazil, increase FAE to encourage evaporation, maybe point a fan towards the tub in extreme cases.  If you live in Siberia close up some holes to slow too much evaporation and the drying of your substrate. Standard stuff.

As for the first part of your post, look at josex's (former?) situation. He said his aerial spore count in his area was so high he couldn't use an SAB in the traditional sense, at least not at acceptable success levels.  Check out his LC lids, they are remarkable. But the point is, once he had clean spawn, he had no problems spawning in open air. Despite the extra steps he had to take to get the clean spawn.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26987769 - 10/15/20 11:13 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Na yo, you're still trying really hard to corral me into what you mean.  Please hear me when I say I'm trying to draw a clear distinction.
Maybe SOME of what I described could be read and reworded as "dialing in your fruiting chamber" to not reflect my intents, but doing the things that this forum usually means by that are not what solved my problem, as I described.

What you just talked about is meant as a "pinning trigger" not a "mold inhibitor" and they're on two totally different levels.
That "pinning trigger" (in quotes bc I've gotten into a share of these kinds of talks about those too) is actually as simple as something like cutting the bag open or opening the lid/removing hole tape for the first time etc.. "Pinning trigger" evaporation happens even at incredibly high humidity - it takes full on fog-like saturation to stop it, and even hyphal knots really don't mind that since they're incredibly vulnerable to drying yet at the first place that drying would occur. If the humidity is high enough to where those knots are at 99%+ humidity anyway, they can't much tell the difference between that and what would otherwise remain their humid microclimate that's caused by the substrate's own moisture ***slowly*** evaporating.

Whereas I mean something of a whole other degree when I refer to "humidity drops." I'm talking blowing air at below 70% humidity into my chamber for relatively long periods of time where you would absolutely be worrying about the tiny pins of Cubensis. When I do this, essentially every surface in my chamber dries (which is actually pretty frickin nice btw). I never do what I'm referring to during pinning (except for shiitake) at least without a specific reason and being wary of the consequences. It's not something I'd dare recommend to Cubensis home growers *at all* unless they had major issues and were prepared to dry out and flatten their pinning surfaces while they're learning what to do.



Like what you said about josex, I was never less than frustrated beyond belief with SABs and considering my experiences overall I bet josex's reason certainly applied to me too. I learned quickly that both for personal tolerance and to start getting any consistent success I had to go sterile airflow.

Though switching to sterile airflow to run away from environmental contams in clean techniques IS a bit more similar in comparison to how I eliminated all open-air spawning/colonization by sterile inoculating and colonizing heat-treated substrates inside the containers they were heat treated in, that actually validates me too, because he had to delete a whole aspect of cultivation that is *supposedly* perfectly effective regardless of environmental contams, because it wasn't as perfectly effective in his experience as so many here here assert....

Yet even I wouldn't be so bold as to blame my SAB failures on just heavy environmental contams like that!, so honestly that makes me surprised that josex isn't at least a teensie weensie bit more open to environmental contams causing problems on vulnerable subs he incidentally doesn't experience for one reason or another. Once again I suspect it's mostly a product of this environment.

meowjinx said: "if we could all, as a community acknowledge that this is a functional approach that we take because it works extremely well, then I wouldn't have bothered to comment in this thread at all. But one side of the "debate" was being unfairly ridiculed because what was once a general rule of thumb has practically become a dogmatic pillar of truth and as long as you parrot this truth you're allowed to be as toxic as you want"

Just like he aggressively asserts that the problem with environmental contams is unequivocally the sole fault of the cultivator's spawn, I could choose to refute his excuse and say that he simply didn't know what he was doing and something like sterile airflow made up for his shortcoming so that he could pretend like it didn't exist. In fact, I might actually go ahead and say so just because he was a dick to some people in a way didn't warrant it. Fair turnaround? No matter whether you have ten or a trillion spores in there, they'll all settle to the bottom, right? Or now are we willing to admit that *more* spores (and especially airborne live mold now apparently) might cause *more* problems?


Didn't expect to spend so much time on the forum today and honestly I'm tired of it already, so don't be surprised if I don't pop back up too soon


Edited by Violet (10/15/20 11:53 PM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988017 - 10/16/20 07:22 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I'm confused.  I thought FAE was proven to be a mold inhibitor? I thought that's why mold isnt growing on everything outdoors, because the FAE is blowing it around (obviously a very simplified version of everything).

Violet, arent you implying that it actually was your spawn if you are saying you couldn't get a clean plate until you switched to a flow hood at your spot?  I feel like expanding hidden nasties, this leading to contams all the time, could be the issue if this was your case, no?


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Psicomb]
    #26988149 - 10/16/20 09:52 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Fresh air exchange does help prevent mold by periodically/gradually replacing the stagnant CO2-heavy air that mold love, but plenty of fresh air exchange can be provided while also keeping humidity levels high enough for mold to love too, tho normally it's fine because the mycelium can do the rest of the job defending itself.
Doing what I described dries up and kills young mold every day before it has a chance to establish itself, when apparently the myc otherwise can't deal with local contams for long, as per Stamets. It's not just "fresh air exchange."

Outside air moving around pretty much does both, but we don't want our mushroom cakes just plain ole exposed to open outside air as if we just plopped them on the dirt. They'd dry up in no time so we contain them to retain moisture and regulate airflow to create both worlds.
What I'm describing would be kindof like *not* regulating airflow and maintaining humidity for moisture, for just long enough to do harm to any early mold but (ideally) not to my large subs with their large water capacities.

This does nothing to impact mold that's already established and visible, at that point it's too late. Trying to do this to stop that mold will more likely weaken your mushroom mycelium to it first, mold won't give a fuck anymore.

People would really benefit from reading materials like Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms (at least about the common cultivars because damn is it big, when not reading mine I use it as a cinderblock in my goddamn house) because not everything fits neatly within the short little platitudes we say around amateur cubensis cultivation.



*** I never said I "couldn't get a clean plate until I switched to a flow hood" nor did I have much issue identifying when my jars were contaminated after learning just like anybody else. You're misreading my response to what josex said about using his SAB with his local contaminants.  I just plain old hated SABs but also yes my contamination rate was higher before sterile air and I was tired of wasting materials.

"aren't you implying it was actually your spawn-"
Actually my spawn that what? Was contaminated? I try to be pretty clear that regardless of brag-worthy success rates with plates and spawn I still had my same issues with inoculating and colonizing substrates in open air, so what you're referring to would only be applicable to the very smallest and earliest fraction of my nine years as a cultivator, and does not imply my problem has been with spawn all along.


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Edited by Violet (10/16/20 11:09 AM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988208 - 10/16/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Ive been embracing the trich a little more than ive wanted to lately 🤪


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: eatyualive]
    #26988237 - 10/16/20 11:07 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

[Cartman's mom voice]: WhatwhatwhaaaaAAAAT?

Don't you know how to make clean spawn by now, eat???!?!!?!1
:tongue:


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988256 - 10/16/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

What he means to say is " don't you know how to control your sporeload by now"?

:lolsy:


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack] * 2
    #26988267 - 10/16/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Kyle's mom:facepalm:


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Munchauzen]
    #26988272 - 10/16/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
this proved nothing whatsoever.





Quote:

Munchauzen said:
Having the stuff in the same room doesn't prove much to me.




As someone who has read much more than experienced in this hobby, I can say definitively this helps dispel what I would consider to be a myth.

An understanding that a new person gleans, in my experience, learning mush cult in 2019-2020, that if you ever get trich in your growing area you're in for an all-day cleaning and scrubdown session if you want to ever successfully fruit in that room again. And you still might be better off just moving out of your house.


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Edited by karri0n (10/16/20 11:31 AM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: karri0n]
    #26988288 - 10/16/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
Kyle's mom:facepalm:



Thanks, my b.

Quote:

Smartattack said:
What he means to say is " don't you know how to control your sporeload by now"?



low-tier

Quote:

karri0n said:
As someone who has read much more than experienced in this hobby, I can say definitively this helps dispel what I would consider to be a myth.

An understanding that a new person gleans, in my experience, learning mush cult in 2019-2020, that if you ever get trich in your growing area you're in for an all-day cleaning and scrubdown session if you want to ever successfully fruit in that room again. And you still might be better off just moving out of your house.



Sure, but the problem is that this forum goes beyond "dispelling a myth" to "willfully denying evident possibilities" and it doesn't have to be the latter to do the former


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988296 - 10/16/20 11:45 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:

Sure, but the problem is that this forum goes beyond "dispelling a myth" to "willfully denying evident possibilities" and it doesn't have to be the latter to do the former




I get it. There is a balance needed there.

I think unless we never ever see green in anyone's tub again we might not have to worry about people being convinced anyone is saying trich is perfectly harmless to keep around.

There is a lot of doom and gloom info out there warning about contam. Scary stuff gets better ratings in general.  I'm still trying to figure out if I'm in danger of becoming exposed to botulinum toxin when I screw up a spawn jar.


Edited by karri0n (10/16/20 11:48 AM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988300 - 10/16/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Is there anything you can think of that would work as an even more credible experiment, violet? I feel like keeping green subs inches from non-contaminated substrates with continuous success is pretty solid.  There may be some exceptions to the rule about nasties in the grow room but I havent found any proof it will harm things besides anecdotes as well :shrug:


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Psicomb]
    #26988315 - 10/16/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

That question has been pretty much covered in this thread already, psicomvb.

I mean not right off hand at least if at all, but you see, my angle doesn't rely on outright denying contrary anecdotes (including from people like eatyualive, pastywhite, and countless more) while asserting that something that hasn't happened to me yet (or frankly that I didn't recognize if it did) cannot happen at all, so as I said before....


Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

Smartattack said:
Im at ease in being on the side of the fence Im on, given the whole proving a negative conundrum. If presence of trich in the grow space is an issue, luckily the burden of proof is on those who state so.




Well between the work of scientists and professional mushroom farmers, that hasn't appeared very difficult for us to do, not that anonymous forum randos will necessarily take note accordingly.

[...] rather it's not having substrates near contams also contam that doesn't "prove the negative" in the way I believe you meant it. Something not happening in a thousand incidents of anecdotal experience won't prove it can't happen in the next much less in a different scenario entirely.

But I suppose whenever your knee-jerk reaction to seeing contamination is "bad spawn, I'm never wrong" then you can always easily convince yourself that opposing evidence is supporting evidence.

Especially when the nature of your initial contam is in question in the first place....





I'd also like to add that in that other thread once OP gave more information I told them their problem was probably with bacterial spawn :shrug:


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988331 - 10/16/20 12:14 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

It's hard to digest all those long posts and then try to guess what your idea of a good experiment is.  Most of it is just you stating your personal experience as well. Can you just tell me?


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Psicomb]
    #26988332 - 10/16/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

... bro.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988336 - 10/16/20 12:17 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Yo still waiting


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Psicomb] * 1
    #26988344 - 10/16/20 12:24 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I think maybe an experiment can be done like the pic of the moldy bag in the same tub as fine looking bags, but have the moldy bag in there with freshly spawned and not yet fully colonized substrates.

I think in that picture, by the time the mold showed up in the one bag, the others were pretty well colonized. Would be interesting to see the effect (if any) that having mold in such close proximity, but not physical contact, to freshly spawned coir.

Maybe you could run similar experiments with other mold species as well.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26988363 - 10/16/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

You still then run into the issue of people concluding that something not happening means it can't. It'd be a little easier if we as home cultivators knew nearly as much about our cultures, substrates, and more like professional farms do, where they aren't cocksure enough to pretend that they'll never get contams just because they buy clean spawn and in fact actively work to avoid it in ways people here are lucky to not. But then you still haven't found a foolproof way to transcend the confirmation biases of cocksure forum randos


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26988366 - 10/16/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Violet, these people like pictures. Just post some, it'll distract em for hours


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Edited by smalltalk_canceled (10/16/20 12:36 PM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: smalltalk_canceled]
    #26988374 - 10/16/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Then people just say I had dirty spawn.

it shouldn't take some specious, hole-filled, inconclusive-by-nature home experiment to convince people to at least be a little open-minded, especially to some of our most experienced and trusted cultivators, professional mushroom farmers, and biological researchers.



Your ninja edit makes your comment even less helpful


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: smalltalk_canceled]
    #26988375 - 10/16/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

That logic doesn't hold up well with all the embrace of the OP.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988385 - 10/16/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Besides, the best solution to suppress the successes of environmental contams is frequent air exchange and occasional humidity fluctuations, as outlined by Stamets in GGMM and as known by, like, every real cultivator worth more salt than forum randos that let their grow space get disgusting and still manage to grow Cubensis of all things.  It seems from your OP you're doing those things just fine, so if anything you're indicating that environmental contam problems can often be dealt with simply via good technique, not that they are never a problem.




I'm just saying, reading a quote like this and then not being provided with like any decent counter experiment by that same person seems...odd. you shit on him a bit with that post basically.  your experience is your experience and I know you're not new at all to this game, Violet, but cubes are illegal still and different species handle things differently and home experiments are basically all we have with this species


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988391 - 10/16/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
they aren't cocksure enough to pretend that they'll never get contams just because they buy clean spawn and in fact actively work to avoid it in ways people here are lucky to not.




Are you saying shroomery users aren't producing spawn but buying it premade? Or this is what commercial farms are doing?

Does this mean they work actively to avoid assuming their spawn is clean and we are lucky to not have to?

Or we don't take certain active precautions and we are lucky that we don't take these precautions because... something?

Wouldn't doing this "active avoidance work" be beneficial for us?

I'm not trying to be cheeky, it's just that some of your sentences come off a bit difficult to understand, Like you are speaking quickly or expecting a certain level of basic understanding I don't have.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: karri0n]
    #26988405 - 10/16/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

what is the general argument being made?

I am having a hard time following along, mostly cause this conversation took place across like 3 threads.

From what I think I understand: The majority of members here chime in that a moldy sub is the result of using "bad spawn"
bad spawn meaning anything from insufficiently sterilizing the grain, botching the inoculation, or missing a competitor riding along on agar/lc. If using a substrate that requires proper pasteurization, then possibly that process was botched

The counter argument being that people are to quick to parrot clean spawn, blaming what I posted above.

Its here I am getting lost, are we arguing that given all of the above was achieved properly, that a tub could still mold from.....? spore load of the area?


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Camera93]
    #26988408 - 10/16/20 12:59 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Yes I believe that is the argument.  Unless I'm misunderstanding too


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Camera93]
    #26988419 - 10/16/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I'll try not to speak for anybody, but, yes.
That environment is a vector of contamination and that it's misleading/incomplete to say that clean spawn is the explicit factor in success.
Honestly, a lot of it is just fumbling over contextualization and some people not acknowledging a comprehensive view of some issues.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Camera93]
    #26988432 - 10/16/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Camera93 said:
what is the general argument being made?

I am having a hard time following along, mostly cause this conversation took place across like 3 threads.

From what I think I understand: The majority of members here chime in that a moldy sub is the result of using "bad spawn"
bad spawn meaning anything from insufficiently sterilizing the grain, botching the inoculation, or missing a competitor riding along on agar/lc. If using a substrate that requires proper pasteurization, then possibly that process was botched

The counter argument being that people are to quick to parrot clean spawn, blaming what I posted above.

Its here I am getting lost, are we arguing that given all of the above was achieved properly, that a tub could still mold from.....? spore load of the area?




I'd say the OP posits that, SPECIFICALLY in regard to Trichoderma and P. Cubensis:

1. Having Trichoderma that turns green(thus sporulating) in your growing area has a *very low chance* of infesting a tub that was put together with clean spawn that had truly fully colonized the spawn, using properly prepared substrate.

2. Contamination is much more likely to be caused by bad spawn or improper substrate prep(in the case of nutritious substrates) than by latent trichoderma spore load in the fruiting room. The trich probably got to the grain before it was fully colonized with mycelium.

3. You really still dont want a bunch of fucking mold growing everywhere so throw it out.

Even in OP we can see one "healthy" bag where trich is in one corner. Terms like "always", "impossible", "never", etc. are to be avoided, as in most walks of life.


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Edited by karri0n (10/16/20 01:08 PM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: karri0n]
    #26988438 - 10/16/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

karri0n said:
Are you saying shroomery users aren't producing spawn but buying it premade? Or this is what commercial farms are doing?



the latter, obviously.

Quote:

karri0n said:
Does this mean they work actively to avoid assuming their spawn is clean and we are lucky to not have to?



No, they can assume with relative safety their professionally made spawn is clean, they work to reduce contaminations in the fruiting stage (which, to hammer this point the fuck home, are absolutely fuckin possible) because of slim profit margins in mass agriculture.

Quote:

karri0n said:
Or we don't take certain active precautions and we are lucky that we don't take these precautions because... something?



It's never a big deal to throw out a contaminated sub to anyone but the noob who is desperately attached to the success of their first and worst grow.
As said above, this isn't the case for commercial farms which usually know better than forum amateurs.

Quote:

karri0n said:
Wouldn't doing this "active avoidance work" be beneficial for us?



Well, the things I mentioned doing have been not only "beneficial" but entirely necessary for me.

And as a gourmet mushroom cultivator, I recommend ALL people growing more than just a little to implement home filtration for a variety of reasons, this has been covered well by pretty much everyone. Filtration is inherently good, even if it doesn't make all your grows never mold.


...

Openly stating here that certain tedious and circular users won't be getting more responses from me.

Forgive me, but I really only have so much energy for this. People who aren't even getting what I'm saying are asking me to bring the level of the topic down to somewhere it doesn't belong.  This isn't a conversation for beginners, it's a reaction to and criticism of specific people who have gone from knowing the most important troubleshooting steps to making sweeping claims that they're the only troubleshooting steps there ever are.

I'm far from the only person that says that environmental contams can absolutely be a problem if bad enough and you have plenty of TCs and other cultivators you can hound about it if you're not happy with my answers,

but I have said A WHOLE DAMN LOT already,

and am absolutely exhausted with things like having to repeatedly explain the difference between "fresh air exchange" and "blowing in so much dryness that germinating mold dies.”

I mean cmon, “are you saying shroomeey members are buying spawn?”? Really???



I'm just plain ole unwilling to beat this to fucking death forever.
If you don't think environmental contamination is an issue, then I allow you to be of that exclusively anecdotal OPINION.  But I spoke my peace about that being exactly what it is.



As far as beginners and non-advisers need to know, everyone worth their salt here is saying that clean spawn is critical to all grows and the overwhelming most likely cause of contamination at least while clean spawn preparation is being learned.


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Edited by Violet (10/16/20 01:32 PM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988471 - 10/16/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

You're so much fun v:popcorn:

Quote:


I'm just plain ole unwilling to beat this to fucking death forever





As you beat this dead horse forever.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: mushboy] * 1
    #26988474 - 10/16/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I remember when mods here used to give people warnings for aimless, dumb, off-topic attack comments like yours.

I’m fully aware this topic has been beaten to death here and I’m done doing it, so, your point?

As other people try to drag it on but I don’t, they ask question after errant question, but you say this about literally only me?

You haven’t changed much I see.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988496 - 10/16/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I dunno if you're referring to me, Violet, but I am simply still having trouble understanding why you perceive the OP as irrelevant and how we can demonstrate that it is in terms of home experimentation beyond letting moldy tub sit in the same room as clean ones for months. As far as I can tell it really is relevant and holds quite a bit of value for all of us cubensis bedroom farmers.


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Edited by Psicomb (10/16/20 01:48 PM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988518 - 10/16/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah that’s what I meant by circular.

From my very first sentence here:
Quote:

Violet said:
[...] having sources of mold spores near clean substrates doesn't mean much except that local spores don't *guarantee* a contamination which is a high-tier duh.




Maybe it isn’t such a duh to beginners who haven’t yet fully grasped how these contams are virtually everywhere, but a thread like this does nothing that simply telling them that everyday fact doesn’t.

Alright that’s the last time I’m going to simply repeat something or indulge bizarre or erroneous prods


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Psicomb]
    #26988520 - 10/16/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Imo for bedroom cultivators always, always go back to your spawn. Going down a rabbit hole of air ruining grows is really a waste of time for most of us.

Just focus on your spawn. Ignore the evil air.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: mushboy]
    #26988528 - 10/16/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Whereas no doubt that’s the best overall advice, it would have been bad or at least incredibly unhelpful and insufficient advice given to me while I was troubleshooting my personal issues in the past. That’s something this forum could stand to remember (or realize, in the case of self-assures deniers), even the people who have dumb vendettas against me as an individual.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988543 - 10/16/20 02:09 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

In the past?

You should of been asked to post pics of your cultures, jars, everything. Like we ask people to do now. Hopefully someone did? But I remember this place 10-15yrs ago. Not too many people took the time to personally answer repeated questions all damn day back then.. but fukkit.

Past is in the past, right?:derfase:


Edited by mushboy (10/16/20 02:11 PM)


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: mushboy]
    #26988546 - 10/16/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Fortunately yes, because I found solutions to my former problems that this forum literally never advocates.

Thinking this forum doesn’t have such shortcomings is perhaps its biggest one.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988554 - 10/16/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

What I wonder is how much gnarlier can it get for bedroom cultivators than allowing green tubs to flourish for months side by side with clean tubs in varying stages of growth?  Like how much more can one go to try to contaminate their tubs? Josex had black mold all over his crack shack cultivation-only apartment and somehow his tubs were always okay once he put clean spawn to substrate.  Those to me seem like really solid evidence based approaches


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988556 - 10/16/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Cool I'm glad you didnt rely on one source for all your answers :thumbup:


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OfflineOne of Us
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988560 - 10/16/20 02:20 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I think that the OP, the picture and countless others' experiences/anecdotal evidence is pretty damn conclusive *FOR TRICH* (at least). Its absurd to think otherwise.

Also josexs experience is pretty compelling as well. With whatever mold(s) he was dealing with


Violet has apparently had problems with other molds, however, so I will keep an open mind that maybe other molds can be much more pervasive if allowed to get outta hand. But trich? Nah


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: mushboy]
    #26988561 - 10/16/20 02:20 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Everyone's got different variables.

I open air fruited(and spawned no lids ever)these in a room with 4 cats, cat box and green mold on the open window screens:shrug: and moldy tubs nearby. I always got some level of mold going on:lol:



Doesnt mean you should rely on it but... give it a try :shrug:


Edited by mushboy (10/16/20 02:23 PM)


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: mushboy]
    #26988575 - 10/16/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:shocked: Oooohhhhh nooooooo someone actually did it, someone brought up their animals as support aaaaahhhhhhh dsfargegekeoxjcixoam :laugh2:

Quote:

Violet said:
Hey, at least I haven't seen anybody talk about how they don't get moldy subs despite all the *DOGS* in their house so this conversation has improved at least that little bit since the days of FrankHorrigan :toast:




I absolutely take this back, this all is every bit as dumb as it ever was
And once again someone with a tag to boot omgggggglolwifucisjwhso


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet]
    #26988582 - 10/16/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Then go somewhere else:bye:


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: mushboy]
    #26988592 - 10/16/20 02:38 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Public service announcement.

Blame the air, blame spawn, blame cats and dogs but dont go quoting yourself flaming an inactive member over years old drama. That will get you a ban.


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Offlinekarri0n
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: mushboy]
    #26988640 - 10/16/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Well damn.

Shroomery history right here.

This is a sudden conclusion to a really long saga as far as I can tell.


Edited by karri0n (10/16/20 03:03 PM)


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: karri0n]
    #26988653 - 10/16/20 03:08 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Probably not but please stay on topic.. whatever that may be:tongue:


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OfflineThat_guy90
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: mushboy] * 1
    #26988705 - 10/16/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:popcorn: I've learned alot in this thread


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: That_guy90] * 1
    #26988760 - 10/16/20 04:08 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Damn I don't even need to post in this thread for it to get trashed AF. Me likey.

:hellyeah:


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack] * 1
    #26988848 - 10/16/20 04:50 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Threads like this remind me why I didn't come on here for like 4 years...


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #26988959 - 10/16/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

im blaming the ventilation unit from now on


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InvisibleSmartattack
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: smalltalk_canceled] * 1
    #26989054 - 10/16/20 07:33 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

One fun thing about coming on here sometimes is profiling the members who don't appear to be indulging in the fruits of their labor enough.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack]
    #26989539 - 10/17/20 04:14 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:lol:

love your avatar... isn't that the guy that eats cactii and always says "Have a good DAAAAAY"?

Can't remember his name...


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Forrester]
    #26989558 - 10/17/20 04:37 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
:lol:

love your avatar... isn't that the guy that eats cactii and always says "Have a good DAAAAAY"?

Can't remember his name...




LA Beast lol. What a wild dude


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Wall.E]
    #26989563 - 10/17/20 04:39 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

That's it! :lol:

Anyone that drinks a gallon of egg nog with a leaf blower is my hero...


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Forrester]
    #26989571 - 10/17/20 04:46 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Jeeze louise. The last two I remember watching were the 30 year old bottle of Crystal Pepsi and one where he like greased up his floor and broke his toe?

The guy is the pinnacle of the backyard wrestling/jackass era basically.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Wall.E]
    #26989573 - 10/17/20 04:48 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Myc_Hunt said:
The guy is the pinnacle of the backyard wrestling/jackass era basically.




^^^ That, meets competitive eating pretty much sums it up :lol:


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #26989839 - 10/17/20 10:02 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Y'all figured it out. Ive before thought it would be cool to send him a pound of APE mixed with hot sauce and see if he'd make an episode of it.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack] * 1
    #26989931 - 10/17/20 11:17 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Oh dear God that would be hilarious :lol:


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: mushboy]
    #26990254 - 10/17/20 03:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
Then go somewhere else



I obviously meant this topic not this forum, though with the quality moderation around here you are continuing to build a solid case for both.  I think everyone that isn't wanting to lash back at me for getting clowned every time I show up knows *exactly* why you're handing out hypocritical bans, and "flaming" someone who, as you pointed out yourself, isn't even around to be flamed, isn't it... especially when the "flaming" is *checks notes* stating something that user factually said.  If that qualifies as "flaming" now then you earned yourself a ban with your first comment in this same thread, and it wasn't just brazen flaming/baiting but off-topic too.

Have some consistency and decency ffs.

Quote:

mushboy said:
blame cats and dogs




For the record.

No, don't blame cats and dogs.

That kind of thing is what this forum used to consider "bad info" before people like this took over.

Mold causes mold. Don't bother bringing up cats and dogs any more than you'd think your own hair is relevant. To say the least, no matter how smug you are when you do it it won't be a good look.


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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Violet] * 1
    #26990307 - 10/17/20 04:21 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:facepalm:


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Offlinemeltdowner
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: One of Us]
    #26990314 - 10/17/20 04:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

One of Us said:
Thats a really good idea

Idk if you saw it, but there was this other thread today that was on a similar topic. It may have gotten a bit aggressive, but some good conversation and information came out of it.

Anyway, in it someone showed this pic, maybe it can give you some ideas:

Quote:

Boogieman47 said:


Another reason I love these bags .. notice anything?? Second flush






My only issue with bags is sometimes they grow between the bag and the myc.  Annoying.  Hard to harvest


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Offlinesmalltalk_canceled
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: meltdowner]
    #26991848 - 10/18/20 06:44 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

there is some green mycelium in ur bag.. is it orc?


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OfflineBrotherDekatessera
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Re: Embracing the trich. [Re: Smartattack] * 1
    #27046937 - 11/19/20 08:56 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Smartattack said:
  I swear this stuff is easier than anyone is willing to say it is.  Again I realize that this is very old news to many folks,  just had to really cement it into my own mind with a real life experiment.




Same with cannabis. People buy in to idiotic ideas like hydroponics, and bottled nutrients, creating thousands of problems and shit plants.. When organics is more or less set and forget, water occasionally. Even the idea of "feeding" becomes obsolete because organic soil feeds plants, all you need to do is literally add water, and the occasional compost tea, IF NEEDED. Simple as fuck, but people (and the companies that need said idiots to buy useless product) continue to make it highly complex for no reason.

Some people love being wrong, idk.


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