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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26982036 - 10/12/20 05:57 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yes I realize one (or both) sides are lying, and I'm trying to have a discussion about which side is more believable, which you're desperate to avoid.




What do you think about the dozens of other chemical attacks committed by Assad? If this is just a dispute about one attack, you should have no problem calling Assad a war criminal. I don’t think you can.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
    #26982125 - 10/12/20 06:53 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

As I said before I'll discuss that after this discussion is finished.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26982396 - 10/12/20 08:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Those damn White Helmets, they're worse than an ambulance, every time a chlorine bomb gets dropped they turn up!

You could take that statement as either sinister or courageous.



The guy in the video you posted whose family died complained that the white helmets didn't help him.  But at least they got good footage of the deaths.  :shrug:

As I said above (and I know you're one of the people that get it), I'm just trying to look at the evidence from both sides to help determine who is lying.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Over 100 chemical attacks and not one photo, anywhere, of anyone, manually handling a big yellow gas tank. Not one person, even the guy IN THE BUILDING pointing the finger at the White Helmets with zero evidence to back it up.



Can we keep the discussion to Douma on 7 Apr 18 for now?  I realize your point is if there were other attacks elsewhere, doesn't that prove the attack in Douma?  No, I don't think it does.  :shrug:

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
There are lots of photos of the barrel bombs dropping from choppers in an air space controlled by Syria.



Yes, and I've never denied barrel bombs were dropped by helicopters.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
These fake chemical attacks were so successful they did it over 100 times on their own people? Really?



Again, let's first talk about the 7 Apr 18 attack.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Also, if Trump wants the oil does that make Jimmy Dore's assumption that it's all about the gas wrong?



I think oil and gas are used interchangeably.  Did Jimmy Dore say it's all about the gas at a certain timestamp? 

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I've acknowledged the deaths MANY times in this thread, and suggested they might have come from conventional attacks. Please quit make believing.



Ummm so where did the white foamy goo stuff come from on those poor people's faces? Oooo ooo I know, it was planted by those damn White Helmets and a goo machine, no wait it was Miss Scarlet with a candle stick...



At first I thought I thought foam was a sign of a nerve agent attack, since that's what the press originally said.  Then when the OPCW found no evidence of a nerve agent, koods said chlorine could cause foam.  Then when I looked it up, I found ANY asphyxiation can cause foaming of the mouth.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
On those 3 points
1. It's fair to say that those gas cylinders were not placed, there's good evidence to show they came from above.



I responded to that here.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
2. The victims and chlorine? More evidence in those terrible videos I'm not linking those, once is enough.



Those videos showed evidence of suffocation, which I've now learned includes foaming at the mouth.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
3. The tests for chlorine were conducted too late but there are reports of people smelling of chlorine, there are reports from ambulance drivers, family members etc. Probably the only conflicting issue is the accounts from Drs that treated over 650 bombing victims that night that none of them were the ones that treated the 6 victims that made it to hospital and died. That in itself does not prove it didn't happen, it only proves they didn't treat those victims.



Agreed.  And it also doesn't prove it did happen.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I didn't find those emails from Wiki Leaks to be smoking guns either, just more rubbish from bureaucrats and disgruntled bureaucrats  :shrug:



The wikileaks emails showed OPCW leadership justifying removing anything that would put the official narrative of a chemical attack into question.  You don't see the scandal there?


--------------------
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26982487 - 10/12/20 10:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Those videos showed evidence of suffocation, which I've now learned includes foaming at the mouth.




It’s is suffocation. Do you have an explanation for it? I do. Chlorine.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26982742 - 10/13/20 03:21 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

As for point 1, you responded but have you looked at the video from the New York Times/Visual Investigations? I can't think of anything more to add really, it's decent investigative journalism with good evidence.

Gas pipeline? Yes Jimmy Dore throws numerous ideas around at the 2.00 minute mark. Gas pipeline and oil.
Which prime motive he actually believes, I don't know, I don't think he knows either :shrug:

The emails show a lot of people catching up for lots of cups of coffee.
Can you link the most incriminating one which you think most demonstrates the conspiracy to mislead the world?
As that's what you're saying right, that it's a conspiracy to mislead the world by? evil upper level management at the OPCW? 
:joneswtf:


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26982749 - 10/13/20 03:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:At first I thought I thought foam was a sign of a nerve agent attack, since that's what the press originally said.  Then when the OPCW found no evidence of a nerve agent, koods said chlorine could cause foam.  Then when I looked it up, I found ANY asphyxiation can cause foaming of the mouth.



I looked for over an hour and found very little evidence that it causes foaming like that, and mainly only in cases of drowning.
I could not find any page on the net showing or discussing foaming of the mouth from dust suffocation anywhere.
Can you post the page you saw?


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26983117 - 10/13/20 10:22 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Inhaling dust doesn’t cause acute pulmonary edema.

Case closed. Time to comment on the war crimes of Assad, falcon


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NotSheekle said
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26983212 - 10/13/20 11:26 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
As for point 1, you responded but have you looked at the video from the New York Times/Visual Investigations? I can't think of anything more to add really, it's decent investigative journalism with good evidence.



Now you trust Bellingcat/NY Times to do 'investigative' journalism?  Past failures aside, how do we know how "decent" it is?  In my opinion, they should put their own OPCW engineers (who the OPCW now ignores) together with the NY Times team to work on it.  I'm already suspicious of the video as they said the first journalists to go there were Russian 'propagandists'.  We already know that's not true from this other video I posted.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Gas pipeline? Yes Jimmy Dore throws numerous ideas around at the 2.00 minute mark. Gas pipeline and oil.
Which prime motive he actually believes, I don't know, I don't think he knows either :shrug:



I think gas/oil are used interchangeably.  We KNOW Trump said he wants their oil.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
The emails show a lot of people catching up for lots of cups of coffee.
Can you link the most incriminating one which you think most demonstrates the conspiracy to mislead the world?
As that's what you're saying right, that it's a conspiracy to mislead the world by? evil upper level management at the OPCW?



Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, and there's a bunch of it.

This is what OPCW management said about a report that showed the cylinders were more likely manually placed than dropped from a plane or helicopter
removal_of_engineering_report_februar_2018.pdf
“Please get this document out of DRA [Documents Registry Archive]... And please remove all traces, if any, of its delivery/storage/whatever in DRA”.

The OPCW recommendation to dig up the bodies to test for chemicals was also rejected:
actual_toxicology_meeting_redacted.pdf
"The OPCW team gathered after the meeting and reviewed the salient points discussed.  It was agreed among all present that the key take-away message from the meeting was that the symptoms observed were inconsistent with exposure to chlorine, and no other obvious candidate chemical causing the symptoms could be identified.

They made a decision to exclude the entire Douma fact finding team (except one person) from helping put together the final report:
exclusion_of_douma_ffm_team_july_2018.pdf
"...Douma ongoing work should be discussed with FFM Alpha Team.  Whom not on that list should not be involved in this matter."

There's more, but this gives you the idea.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I could not find any page on the net showing or discussing foaming of the mouth from dust suffocation anywhere.
Can you post the page you saw?



Encyclopedia.com - "Asphyxiation may also produce foam in the airways as the victim struggles to breathe and mucus from the lungs mixes with air."


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26983227 - 10/13/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

According to your article that happens when the neck is squeezed , like a knee on the neck . I don’t see how dust could produce this result .


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26983262 - 10/13/20 12:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

According to my article:  "Asphyxiation may also produce foam in the airways as the victim struggles to breathe and mucus from the lungs mixes with air."  I didn't even see the word "knee".


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26983288 - 10/13/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What do you think about the dozens of other chemical attacks committed by Assad? If this is just a dispute about one attack, you should have no problem calling Assad a war criminal. I don’t think you can.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26983289 - 10/13/20 12:17 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
According to my article:  "Asphyxiation may also produce foam in the airways as the victim struggles to breathe and mucus from the lungs mixes with air."  I didn't even see the word "knee".



Pathetic


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NotSheekle said
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
    #26983458 - 10/13/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Like I said Falcon those emails show no smoking gun, other than what a waste of money the investigation was.
Just because they failed to dig up any bodies, that does not prove chlorine was not used. Maybe if Assad had let the inspectors into the area to do their job, and help prove his innocence, but he chose not to.
He's in charge right? OF COURSE he could have let them in. He would be a complete fool if he let that chance go by.

Also, it does not say that breathing in dust produces white foam like that.
I don't agree at all and I found no evidence saying it does and I think that it's disingenuous to state that it does.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26983495 - 10/13/20 02:41 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

wheres The dust? If those people were suffocated by breathing dust their bodies would be covered in this dust. Falcon covers up war crimes with lies.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (10/13/20 02:42 PM)


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26983513 - 10/13/20 02:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:Now you trust Bellingcat/NY Times to do 'investigative' journalism?  Past failures aside, how do we know how "decent" it is?  In my opinion, they should put their own OPCW engineers (who the OPCW now ignores) together with the NY Times team to work on it. 
I'm already suspicious of the video as they said the first journalists to go there were Russian 'propagandists'.  We already know that's not true from this other video I posted.




My view on the NY Times is that they are fallible like any organisation.
And they WERE telling the truth, Stefan Borg was the first reporter onsite in a group of reporters that were the first group to be allowed in.
The New York Times reported that the Russian teams asserted that the cannisters were moved.
That's the propaganda part.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26983543 - 10/13/20 03:17 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

on
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
According to my article:  "Asphyxiation may also produce foam in the airways as the victim struggles to breathe and mucus from the lungs mixes with air."  I didn't even see the word "knee".




Sorry George, didn't really want to make a spectacle of you, again :hatsoff:

At the 6.33 mark, I believe that's what happens, not the same as the people in the video.



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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26983557 - 10/13/20 03:25 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:I think gas/oil are used interchangeably.




I agree about this.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26983573 - 10/13/20 03:43 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Just because they failed to dig up any bodies, that does not prove chlorine was not used.



Agreed, but that seems to show they didn't want to know.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Maybe if Assad had let the inspectors into the area to do their job, and help prove his innocence, but he chose not to.
He's in charge right? OF COURSE he could have let them in. He would be a complete fool if he let that chance go by.



Source, or make believe?  As I said before,  the delay was because Russia and western allies voted against each other’s proposals

Syria's Assad invites chemical weapons watchdog to investigate suspected Douma attack
Quote:

Syria says it has invited a mission from the international chemical weapons watchdog to investigate a suspected poison gas attack near Damascus.

The country’s foreign ministry said it would help the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) in a fact-finding mission into the alleged attack, which opposition activists say killed 40 people over the weekend.



He seemed to want vindication, but UN squabbling denied him that chance.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Also, it does not say that breathing in dust produces white foam like that.
I don't agree at all and I found no evidence saying it does and I think that it's disingenuous to state that it does.



But it does say that asphyxiation can cause foam in the mouth.  People can become asphyxiated by a knee to the neck, smoke and dust, chlorine gas, etc.


--------------------
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26983592 - 10/13/20 03:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe they didn’t want to dig up the bodies because It’s a traumatic thing to put families though, but what do you care? You’re already trying to pretend they weren’t victims of a war crime. Disgusting.


Edited by koods (10/13/20 03:53 PM)


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26983616 - 10/13/20 04:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Maybe if Assad had let the inspectors into the area to do their job, and help prove his innocence, but he chose not to.
He's in charge right? OF COURSE he could have let them in. He would be a complete fool if he let that chance go by.



Source, or make believe?





At the 3.52 mark from the video you posted.
Which bits would you like me to believe and which bits should I ignore?


Edited by Stable Genius (10/13/20 04:18 PM)


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