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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 4
    #26981477 - 10/12/20 12:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Falcon, I've gotten to a place where I don't really see much of a point in arguing with you. Your argumentation skills are so dishonest, and it's exhausting to dig up all the information necessary to accurately respond to just a single sentence from your comments. I know I'm not the first person to reach this space. I think you've gone really far into the deep-end of reactionary politics (mostly right-wing politics), and I'm concerned for your well-being. However, I'm really more concerned for the well-being of society's most vulnerable right now: disabled people, poor people, women, LGBT+ people, racial minorities, religious minorities, immigrants, and refugees. These marginalized groups of people are in danger (real, physical danger) right now because of the far right-wing politics you consistently defend.

About a week ago, I wrote a really long post in another thread about this Douma conspiracy theory, and I guess that prompted you to start this thread. My post there took a lot of research to produce, and while I was reading different sources, I learned a lot about you and where you get your information from. It was a lot for me to go through, and I decided to take a vacation from the forums, which was really good for me. In the spirit of the shroomery, I took some mushrooms and reflected on a lot of stuff. I thought a lot about where we're headed as a society and about political philosophy, and it was a really powerful experience.

Now that I've come back and seen that you're still engaging in the same tactics you have been since I discovered your comments, I see that there's no need for me to engage with you anymore. I don't think there's any logical argument I could provide you with that will help you see the value of using logical arguments rather than rhetorical tactics in a discussion. To me, the purpose of an argument is not victory, but progress, but I feel that you are far more focused on victory when it comes to political discussion. You spread misinformation from sources that are extremely biased, have reputations for misinforming the public, and are often published by white-supremacists, holocaust deniers, and antisemites. When people call you out on it, you usually do one of two things: you'll cry wolf, falsely claiming that everyone is ganging up on you and criticizing your character rather than your arguments. Or, you'll shift the goalposts of the conversation subtly so that the conversation happens on your terms. Usually, this latter tactic has the effect of making it look like you were right all along, but it's extremely dishonest, and you're doing it in your response to my original comment about Douma all over the place.

I don't think it's been a complete waste of time arguing with you, though. There are probably a lot of forum users who didn't even know that there was a chemical weapon attack in Douma (I was one of them). I did a lot of research into the topic, and that was really educational for me. I know I directed the results of all my research at you, but I now realize that this isn't about helping you to see the light. I think you're probably going to continue believing in this conspiracy theory regardless of what I say. I think that this is more about helping people who didn't previously know about the chemical weapon attack in Douma. Here are the facts: The idea that this attack was staged or faked is a conspiracy theory, and there's no evidence other than rhetorical arguments ultimately stemming from WikiLeaks (a highly questionable source of information) to support the theory. Assad used chemical weapons against his own citizens on April 7, 2018 to intimidate Syrian rebel forces.

People's lives are at stake right now because of politics. If history (particularly the history of fascist regimes) has taught us any lessons, it's that this is not a very safe time to be Mexican or Muslim. To that end, the best thing I can hope for is that someone who is uneducated about this topic (and about the other topics you debate about on this forum) will see my own comments before they see yours.

All the best, Falcon. Hope you're able to climb your way out of the alt-right rabbit hole soon. History is not going to look fondly at the alt-right when the dust settles, and I hope you can see that before it's too late.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26981496 - 10/12/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

All the dead bodies are just a story


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
    #26981502 - 10/12/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I see that there's no need for me to engage with you anymore.




Good luck. His bullshit is ubiquitous.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods] * 1
    #26981545 - 10/12/20 01:29 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

I see that there's no need for me to engage with you anymore.




Good luck. His bullshit is ubiquitous.



Ubiquitous as it is, there's no need to respond. We're all giving him a platform by arguing with him. There aren't two equal, but opposing sides to the debates he engages in (though he tries to frame it that way). When the facts don't support his narrative, he shifts the goalposts and stays on the offensive, which creates the perception that he's "winning" the argument (or, at least, that he's the one who's staying level-headed and rational). It's the same sort of tactics public figures like Ben Shapiro use to "destroy libtards with facts and logic" (though Falcon is, admittedly, a lot more civil than that, his intentions aren't any greater).

I've come to realize that responding to Falcon assists in normalizing his far right-wing point of view, which is unhelpful. It is not normal to support Donald Trump. It is not normal to believe that an attack by Assad against his own citizens was staged. It is not normal to follow antisemitic news sources. It is not normal to defend white supremacists like Kyle Rittenhouse or the Proud Boys. The points that Falcon relentlessly defends on almost every single thread in this subforum are not normal, they are extremist and reactionary, and he doesn't deserve to have a platform. We can acknowledge that people like him exist without giving them the pleasure of debating with them.


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Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


Edited by Nonagon Infinity (10/12/20 01:30 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26981648 - 10/12/20 02:23 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Falcon, I've gotten to a place where I don't really see much of a point in arguing with you. Your argumentation skills are so dishonest, and it's exhausting to dig up all the information necessary to accurately respond to just a single sentence from your comments. I know I'm not the first person to reach this space. I think you've gone really far into the deep-end of reactionary politics (mostly right-wing politics), and I'm concerned for your well-being. However, I'm really more concerned for the well-being of society's most vulnerable right now: disabled people, poor people, women, LGBT+ people, racial minorities, religious minorities, immigrants, and refugees. These marginalized groups of people are in danger (real, physical danger) right now because of the far right-wing politics you consistently defend.



So once again - accusations of dishonesty but no backup whatsoever to support your claims?  What did I say that was dishonest?

Enlil started this trend (which reminds me, I still need to show that he was lying about me earlier, which I'll do later today).

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
About a week ago, I wrote a really long post in another thread about this Douma conspiracy theory, and I guess that prompted you to start this thread.



Correct, and I responded to every single point in your post, which also took a lot of time.  Which of my replies do you think was a dishonest response?  Maybe I'll use your own logic against you - "You're a big fat dishonest poo poo head!"  I don't think that's a good argument personally, but I'll try it on you since you seem to like that tactic.  :shrug:

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
My post there took a lot of research to produce, and while I was reading different sources, I learned a lot about you and where you get your information from.



I got it from the same "conspiracy theorists" who said that there wasn't good evidence that the Trump campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities, as the Mueller Report eventually confirmed.  I was constantly accused of being a conspiracy theorist, but look who got the last laugh.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
It was a lot for me to go through, and I decided to take a vacation from the forums, which was really good for me. In the spirit of the shroomery, I took some mushrooms and reflected on a lot of stuff. I thought a lot about where we're headed as a society and about political philosophy, and it was a really powerful experience.

Now that I've come back and seen that you're still engaging in the same tactics you have been since I discovered your comments, I see that there's no need for me to engage with you anymore.



Another attack with no evidence of what you're talking about.  Tell me where I've been dishonest.  I've provided a ton of evidence in this thread.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
I don't think there's any logical argument I could provide you with that will help you see the value of using logical arguments rather than rhetorical tactics in a discussion.



More insults without providing a logical argument?  I thought you were better than that.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
To me, the purpose of an argument is not victory, but progress, but I feel that you are far more focused on victory when it comes to political discussion.



Yes!  And now I know you're being dishonest.  If you followed the discussion I'm having with Stable Genius, you'd see I've acknowledged a lot of his points - for example that it would take a lot of work to put a canister at the site of the attack, that at least one paramedic smelled chlorine, that a witness described the death of his family, etc.  That's progress.  But he also acknowledges the counter points as well - that none of the doctors found evidence of a chemical attack, that the UN left out a lot of critical information that they felt would cast doubt on the Western narrative, etc. which you refuse to even talk about.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
You spread misinformation from sources that are extremely biased, have reputations for misinforming the public, and are often published by white-supremacists, holocaust deniers, and antisemites.



My sources are ones that have been correct about a lot of things in the past, unlike the mainstream media that has been caught repeatedly pushing fake news.  Your tactic is to badmouth the opposition rather than simply proving them wrong.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
When people call you out on it, you usually do one of two things: you'll cry wolf, falsely claiming that everyone is ganging up on you and criticizing your character rather than your arguments.



You've just made a lengthy post calling me "conspiracy theorist" without explaining why, and you call my sources "holocaust deniers, antisemites", which I can assure you Aaron Mate is not.  Again, if you think this type of discussion works, then I'll call you "a big fat poo poo head".  I think your tactic is silly.  :shrug:

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Or, you'll shift the goalposts of the conversation subtly so that the conversation happens on your terms. Usually, this latter tactic has the effect of making it look like you were right all along, but it's extremely dishonest, and you're doing it in your response to my original comment about Douma all over the place.



Can you provide an example, or is name calling all you can do?  I'm tired of accusations without backup (but I'm used to it).

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
I don't think it's been a complete waste of time arguing with you, though. There are probably a lot of forum users who didn't even know that there was a chemical weapon attack in Douma (I was one of them). I did a lot of research into the topic, and that was really educational for me.



There you go again - claiming you're right about something, while avoiding any discussion of the topic. 

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
I know I directed the results of all my research at you, but I now realize that this isn't about helping you to see the light. I think you're probably going to continue believing in this conspiracy theory regardless of what I say.



There you go again with "conspiracy theory".  You think you win by saying that?  Well you're a big fat conspiracy theorist!  :flowstone:

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Here are the facts: The idea that this attack was staged or faked is a conspiracy theory, and there's no evidence other than rhetorical arguments ultimately stemming from WikiLeaks (a highly questionable source of information) to support the theory. Assad used chemical weapons against his own citizens on April 7, 2018 to intimidate Syrian rebel forces.



Did you miss my point at the beginning of this thread about Wikileaks?
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Wikileaks releases information from other organizations.  Can you name a release that's been misattributed by them?  If any "conspiracy theories" come up, it's from people who incorrectly read the information that gets released.







Do you want to at least reply to that?

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
People's lives are at stake right now because of politics. If history (particularly the history of fascist regimes) has taught us any lessons, it's that this is not a very safe time to be Mexican or Muslim. To that end, the best thing I can hope for is that someone who is uneducated about this topic (and about the other topics you debate about on this forum) will see my own comments before they see yours.



Falcon91Wolvrn03 comments:  "Here's something no one's discussed before"
Nonagon Infinity comments:  "Falcon91Wolvrn03's a Conspiracy theorist!"

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
All the best, Falcon. Hope you're able to climb your way out of the alt-right rabbit hole soon. History is not going to look fondly at the alt-right when the dust settles, and I hope you can see that before it's too late.



If you paid any attention at all to my posts, you'd see I'm having an open minded discussion on this, as I think Stable Genius would confirm.

You're position is "I'm right!  I won't discuss this!"

I may not be right.  I'm simply asking for a discussion from anyone who's interested.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26981652 - 10/12/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
All the dead bodies are just a story



I've acknowledged the deaths MANY times in this thread, and suggested they might have come from conventional attacks. Please quit make believing.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26981656 - 10/12/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

A conventional attack? Like bombs? That don’t leave a scratch on their dead victims. And I’m the one who is make believing? 🤦‍♂️


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26981658 - 10/12/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
When the facts don't support his narrative, he shifts the goalposts and stays on the offensive, which creates the perception that he's "winning" the argument (or, at least, that he's the one who's staying level-headed and rational).



Can you provide an example, or this another "Fal's a big fat poo poo head" post?

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
I've come to realize that responding to Falcon assists in normalizing his far right-wing point of view, which is unhelpful. It is not normal to support Donald Trump. It is not normal to believe that an attack by Assad against his own citizens was staged. It is not normal to follow antisemitic news sources. It is not normal to defend white supremacists like Kyle Rittenhouse or the Proud Boys. The points that Falcon relentlessly defends on almost every single thread in this subforum are not normal, they are extremist and reactionary, and he doesn't deserve to have a platform. We can acknowledge that people like him exist without giving them the pleasure of debating with them.



You're wrong again.  I only defend Trump when people make things up about him, which happens all the time.  Stop make believing, and I'll go back to being my old self again.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
    #26981661 - 10/12/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
A conventional attack? Like bombs? That don’t leave a scratch on their dead victims. And I’m the one who is make believing? 🤦‍♂️



Did you know people have died by suffocation before?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26981674 - 10/12/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Those damn White Helmets, they're worse than an ambulance, every time a chlorine bomb gets dropped they turn up!

You could take that statement as either sinister or courageous.

Over 100 chemical attacks and not one photo, anywhere, of anyone, manually handling a big yellow gas tank. Not one person, even the guy IN THE BUILDING pointing the finger at the White Helmets with zero evidence to back it up.
There are lots of photos of the barrel bombs dropping from choppers in an air space controlled by Syria.
These fake chemical attacks were so successful they did it over 100 times on their own people? Really? After the one on the 7th April the group that held that part of Ghoutta surrendered days later, that's akin to shooting yourself in the foot.
Nah, unless a smoking gun pops up it's hard to dispute that the Syrian Army aren't to blame :shrug:


Edited by Stable Genius (10/12/20 02:43 PM)


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26981683 - 10/12/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Also, if Trump wants the oil does that make Jimmy Dore's assumption that it's all about the gas wrong?


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26981695 - 10/12/20 02:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
All the dead bodies are just a story



I've acknowledged the deaths MANY times in this thread, and suggested they might have come from conventional attacks. Please quit make believing.




Ummm so where did the white foamy goo stuff come from on those poor people's faces? Oooo ooo I know, it was planted by those damn White Helmets and a goo machine, no wait it was Miss Scarlet with a candle stick...
:pink:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26981704 - 10/12/20 02:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
A conventional attack? Like bombs? That don’t leave a scratch on their dead victims. And I’m the one who is make believing? 🤦‍♂️



Did you know people have died by suffocation before?




Weapons of mass suffocation


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26981802 - 10/12/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
And you're still missing the main argument:  that the interim AND final reports left out critical information:

- That the experts determined that the cylinders found on the site of the alleged attack were more likely manually placed there than dropped from a plane or helicopter
- That the experts found no correlation between the symptoms of the victims and chlorine exposure
- That the levels of chlorine found were so low they may have come from household cleaners

After the final report came out, about 20 inspectors said they felt the final report "did not reflect the views of the team members that deployed to Douma”.  That's the scandal.




On those 3 points
1. It's fair to say that those gas cylinders were not placed, there's good evidence to show they came from above.
2. The victims and chlorine? More evidence in those terrible videos I'm not linking those, once is enough.
3. The tests for chlorine were conducted too late but there are reports of people smelling of chlorine, there are reports from ambulance drivers, family members etc. Probably the only conflicting issue is the accounts from Drs that treated over 650 bombing victims that night that none of them were the ones that treated the 6 victims that made it to hospital and died. That in itself does not prove it didn't happen, it only proves they didn't treat those victims.

I didn't find those emails from Wiki Leaks to be smoking guns either, just more rubbish from bureaucrats and disgruntled bureaucrats  :shrug:

:hatsoff:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26981831 - 10/12/20 04:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:]
If you paid any attention at all to my posts, you'd see I'm having an open minded discussion on this, as I think Stable Genius would confirm.

You're position is "I'm right!  I won't discuss this!"

I may not be right.  I'm simply asking for a discussion from anyone who's interested.




:ancientaliens:

Have you ever been on the stand, getting hammered by a prosecutor and you feel like every answer you give digs an even deeper hole?...
:grin:  It's all good fun  :thumbup:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26981840 - 10/12/20 04:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

That the levels of chlorine found were so low they may have come from household cleaners




Chlorine is volatile and highly reactive. There wouldn’t be any chlorine left in the environment after a day or two.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
    #26981843 - 10/12/20 04:13 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think the 3 points outlined by the OP in the thread have been addressed :shrug:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26981888 - 10/12/20 04:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
"You're a big fat dishonest poo poo head!"




:hahthatsrich:


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26981914 - 10/12/20 04:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You're position is "I'm right!  I won't discuss this!"





Nah, my position is: Falcon endorses some pretty dangerous rhetoric and ideologies. We should all stop responding to his political nonsense so that he just goes away. I'm not the first one to jump on this bandwagon, and I probably won't be the last. Have a nice day, man. I sincerely hope you find a way out of the hole you've dug yourself into.


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26982010 - 10/12/20 05:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You're position is "I'm right!  I won't discuss this!"





Nah, my position is: Falcon endorses some pretty dangerous rhetoric and ideologies.



If looking at all the available evidence to try and determine what's correct is "dangerous", then I guess I'm living dangerously.  :shrug:

Yes I realize one (or both) sides are lying, and I'm trying to have a discussion about which side is more believable, which you're desperate to avoid.

I know you've given high praise to sources funded by the US Government, like Bellingcat (who have been proven wrong on multiple occasions) and the White Helmets, while dismissing anyone because they once wrote an article in a source that once posted an article that was anti-Semitic.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
We should all stop responding to his political nonsense so that he just goes away.



It's funny that I'm often accused of plugging my ears, though I try to discuss every single point that's brought up (see this post as an example), as you plug your ears and hope I go away without responding to a single point and even ignoring points, like "Wikileaks releases information from other organizations.  Can you name a release that's been misattributed by them?  If any 'conspiracy theories' come up, it's from people who incorrectly read the information that gets released."

All you've done in this thread is call me names (dishonest, dangerous, conspiracy theorist, not logical, shifts goalposts etc), without backing yourself up.  I thought you were better than that.  I don't mind the name calling, unless you don't back yourself up, which you're not doing.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
I'm not the first one to jump on this bandwagon, and I probably won't be the last.



Yes, Enlil has done this too.  Which reminds me - time for me to prove that Enlil is a liar.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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