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Harry Manbach
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Lime/gypsum for grain spawn?
#26981265 - 10/12/20 10:33 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have heard of lime being used for pasteurization, but after finding this https://juniperpublishers.com/aibm/AIBM.MS.ID.555871.php I believe I have some trials to start! I have been using about a tablespoon of gypsum in my grain soaking(5-7lbs of grain), more so for anti clumping.
From what I've read they claim a 1:1ratio of gypsum/lime, in a grain soak, is the optional ratio..but they don't mention weight or any correlation to the size of their tested grain batches.
So...has anyone any experience using this combo? If so at 1:1 ... How much grain...how much water..or is the water's starting ph more relevant than the amount!?
While on this topic, does anyone have feed back as to adding either lime or gypsum to supplemented blocks? If their study shows results on grain spawn wouldn't the same be assumed for the block?
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sendmehummus
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I have yet to use gypsum in any of my jars or blocks. I guess it depends on what you're growing.. but for me, I can always get my oyster mycelium busted up enough with some gentle smacks. Whats the point of adding gypsum to blocks though? Never heard of that.
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Harry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: sendmehummus]
#26981794 - 10/12/20 03:35 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well the link I included talks about the advantages using different ratios of lime/gypsum on different grains apparently determining an equal ratio of each aids in mycelium growth on grains at least..a good read if you care to click.
But,considering those results I was wondering if the same would apply to supplemented blocks...because in theory it would, I'd think, and asked if anyone has experience with running said experiments.
Ps...I never used gypsum to aid in myceliated grain breaking up, more so on millet,so the wet grains wouldn't stick as much before/after pc cycle. ..it would appear I need a nifty ph meter..
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Forrester
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That link only led me to the base website juniorpublishers.com which didn't tell me anything. A permission issue?
I dunno but can you rephrase what the point is? I've never found gypsum to help in anything as long as you get grain prep right.
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Harry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Forrester]
#26982227 - 10/12/20 07:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you for the constructive feedback Forrester! Possibly the pdf link? https://juniperpublishers.com/aibm/pdf/AIBM.MS.ID.555871.pdf
If not,the gist of it was based on oyster Mycelium and according to their study,millet being the most effective grain...they concluded that an equal ratio of gypsum and lime ,introduced into a grain prep soak, resulted in a noticeable difference in growth compared to other ratios/ no gypsum or lime at all. Possibly misunderstanding their reasoning,but more as a ph buffer than as supplementation. So with that reasoning, no evidence to back it up first hand, the same theory would apply to blocks..supplemented or not...correct?
Again, I've only ever used gypsum with no scientific reasoning other than the grains seemed to be ready for inoculation quicker(loose/dry hulls) ..other than that Ive never noticed a growth difference, however I hadn't combined it with lime,nor monitored ph.
Curious if anyone else has gone down this particular lane?
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Forrester
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Ok cool that link works I'll have to check it out after work. Interested if anyone has tried as well, ph can definitely make a lot of difference.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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FlufferNutter
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Forrester]
#26982741 - 10/13/20 03:19 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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They're likely talking about pelletized lime not hydrated lime. BIG difference! Yes, pelletised lime acts as a buffer. It will help the pH maintain a neutral level until its exhausted. Mycelium do create an a acidic environment as they break down lignin. It also provides calcium which is good in fruit body development. Ever since this was explained to me,I've always used pelletized lime in everything I use to some degree or another: grain and sub. Gypsum isnt a buffer, but it seems to help the grains from sticking together. Its dirt cheap and if it can help at all, I might as well. I dont need a scientific analysis to tell me that.
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Harry Manbach
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Well that's interesting about the pelletized vs hydrated...I'm not positive if they state that, from what I remember they said calcium from both lime/gypsum (carbonate/sulphate) acted as a ph buffer oxidating the acid put off by the mycelium so it sounds like you're on the money with that. However,it's worth a read because their scientific analysis contradicts your opinion with a noticeable growth difference with gypsum added in equal amounts with lime. There's multiple ratios they tested with 1:1 being optimal..but no weights or batch sizes..
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Harry Manbach
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So I grabbed some pelletized lime at the feed store yesterday ,a thank you to FlufferNutter as I hadn't considered the differences in the lime.
Guess I'm on my own on this one..but has anyone been troubled to monitor ph? Whether that be in your grain soak or your substrate? I've never been troubled to think of trying it, but that seems to be the basis of their study..regulating ph for optimal growth.
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Forrester
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I've never tried. Would be interesting to have a Ph meter and test that stuff, but I lost mine long ago.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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Harry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Forrester]
#26985521 - 10/14/20 04:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Agreed,minus the lost part! I looked at the feed store,but all they had was the soil test kits. It'll have to wait until next month's orders/budget lol. I'd especially be curious the ph of fresh soaked grain vs fully colonized.
Regardless, Figured I'd soak a couple extra jars each week with their 1:1 ratio and see how they compare to my regular jars...kinda like throwing dicks at a fire without a weight measurement tho...think I'm gonna go low at first with 5grams lime/gypsum.
Further more, apparently I'm going from millet to winter rye as well(stock issue@feed supply) so I'll have that variable in there as well
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Quadman
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I've always added lime and gypsum to substrates at about 1%. Gypsum just because I had it for grain. It does supply sulfur and calcium. Calcium carbonate to increase ph and calcium source.
Since using oats ,never use additives in grain.
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RogerRabbit
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Gypsum is great for adding some minerals and helping to prevent clumping. You don't want to use lime. RR
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Harry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#26986540 - 10/15/20 07:16 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you Quadman for the 1% reference in substrate. I think I'm gonna hold off until I can run a couple different species on grain with/without this combo before comparing substrate additives. Even tho in the ph theory,it'd be best.
RR I did the same,more so for anti clumping with the millet..but after reading that study proposing it acts more as a ph buffer, as well as never monitoring my ph levels myself to dispute this, I figured it was worth consideration. Is there a specific reason you definitively say to not use lime?
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GreenGills


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I have been using "hydrated lime" for pretty much all of my subs for quite a long time now and it (for me) has proven to decrease contams and has never slowed mycelium growth, at least with the species that have that I have grown. If I were to choose between the two, it would be lime hands down.
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Harry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: GreenGills]
#26997755 - 10/22/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't think anyone is actually reading the article I posted,rather than just chiming in with their own personal,unfounded claims. Rye berries just came back into stock so I have a few test jars going to draw my own conclusions,based on the study and my results!
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Quadman
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Quote:
Harry Manbach said: I don't think anyone is actually reading the article I posted,rather than just chiming in with their own personal,unfounded claims. Rye berries just came back into stock so I have a few test jars going to draw my own conclusions,based on the study and my results!
You are correct in my not reading the study. My understanding now is that the grain was soaked for 24 hr and drained then added the 1:1 ratio to the grain before pressure cooking. Personally I used to soak with the gypsum. So maybe I should try adding gypsum/lime to grain after the soak.I may experiment.
--------------------
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deadmandave
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Quadman]
#26998877 - 10/22/20 11:31 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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i see that they find best results with a 1:1 ratio of lime:gypsum but what is the ratio of lime and gypsum to grains?
would these results carry over to any other species? or are oysters creating more acids during colonization than others?
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bogdancev
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Quadman]
#26998878 - 10/22/20 11:31 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Link is broken. Just remove everything after ".php". That is probably why people did not read it.
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Harry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: bogdancev]
#26999172 - 10/23/20 06:27 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
deadmandave said: i see that they find best results with a 1:1 ratio of lime:gypsum but what is the ratio of lime and gypsum to grains?
would these results carry over to any other species? or are oysters creating more acids during colonization than others?
Great question! One I asked myself and others..after quadmans input of 1% in his substrate and lack of information in the study I have different jars inoculated last night with some branch oyster. I went with a control, 0.5%/0.5% gypsum/lime and 1%/1%. As far as the weight I went off the dry weight of the grains before soaking. Granted this isn't what the study was based on, but a starting point nonetheless. Also hit a couple jars with lion's mane as well ..still need to get a decent ph meter and start keeping some more in depth logs!
Quote:
bogdancev said: Link is broken. Just remove everything after ".php". That is probably why people did not read it.

Yes,thank you, Forrester pointed this out as well and I provided a pdf link that works already https://juniperpublishers.com/aibm/pdf/AIBM.MS.ID.555871.pdf
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bogdancev
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What is new to me is that gypsum/lime added after water was drained. And it makes sense so gypsum/lime is not drained with a water. I'm going to do it today that way and see if I will notice any difference.
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Harry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: bogdancev]
#26999260 - 10/23/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Right on! Yeah that got me as well, but my reasoning behind soaking with rather than adding later was... If it's a ph buffer,wouldn't it be more effective through out the grain as the mycelium colonized? Regardless, I don't rinse my grain,other than a splash of water in the soak bucket to get out all the grain..but the sheet I drain off into leaves all the residual gypsum/lime in with the grain anyway..
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bogdancev
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I made my next batch with gypsum after soaking. There are some particles now in the jars. See how it goes.
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Harry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: bogdancev]
#27002394 - 10/25/20 09:08 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bogdancev said: I made my next batch with gypsum after soaking. There are some particles now in the jars. See how it goes.

Best of luck! I and many others have used just gypsum in grain soaks before with no noticeable benefit other than anti-clumping benefits. Their study more so pushed the equal ratio of...blahh...you read it!
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bogdancev
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Thanx!
I do not have lime and I'm not sure where to buy not "hydrated lime". But according to them even just gypsum is beneficial.
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Harry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: bogdancev]
#27002577 - 10/25/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I got my lime at the local farm supply store, right next to the hydrated lime of the same brand if any of this helps..
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bogdancev
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Update: it colonized 6 jars, for me they are different in color, gypsum ones are "dull" (not visible much on the photo), not as supper white as without. I also think mycelium is thinner that normally.
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Harry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: bogdancev]
#27026179 - 11/07/20 06:08 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'm finding the same, have tried a couple different 1:1 ratios based on dry weight, after soak, 1g:1g, and 5g:5g. With the best results being the 5g ratio,however the untreated grains colonize thicker and only take a day or two more.
The real lightbulb moment was applying that ratio to my substrates! Just starting to run a couple batches to play with this,but it definitely seemed that the 1%:1% lime/gypsum supplemented substrates ripped past my regular masters mix!
However,that's also not reliable when I was using multiple different strains. But the plain soaked grains (lion's mane,branched oyster) added to a 1:1( dry weight)master's mix definitely showed promise.
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teknix
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I use gypsum when I'm using WBS to help break it up easier, but I always end up using a spoon to scoop it out anyways. Let me know if you notice any difference when you break it up. Nice test btw!
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bogdancev
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: teknix]
#27033584 - 11/11/20 02:56 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Just spawned first jars with gypsum, I can attest that oats in jars break up extremely easy.
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Harry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: bogdancev]
#27033742 - 11/11/20 04:27 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
bogdancev said: Just spawned first jars with gypsum, I can attest that oats in jars break up extremely easy.
I understand this aspect of added gypsum, that was never the test, me addressing this again is a bit redundant..but dinner's still cooking.
By all means,I'm glad you're experimenting and I'm not trying to be a dick, but these threads have become real convoluted,lately, of people not fully reading and integrating the information. Rather,just adding their $.02 ,whether it pertains to the op or not. Mind you I've only been registered for a few months, it's still noticeable.
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Harry Manbach
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I'd highly recommend adding 1% dry weight lime AND gypsum to your substrate, I've had considerable growth difference with this ratio specifically. All be it,my research is limited!
Maybe I'm doing it wrong,or whatever the reason, I'll keep running trials..but I have better mycelium growth on UNtreated grains..both rye and millet..I've found the lime/gypsum much more helpful inn the substrate.
Sorry I don't have pics, I use a shitty tablet for everything and the pictures don't do it justice. Now if anyone has any constructive criticism more pertaining to the original study I'm all ears..eyes rather
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onefunguy
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