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OfflineHarry Manbach
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Lime/gypsum for grain spawn?
    #26981265 - 10/12/20 10:33 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I have heard of lime being used for pasteurization, but after finding this https://juniperpublishers.com/aibm/AIBM.MS.ID.555871.php ; I believe I have some trials to start!  I have been using about a tablespoon of gypsum in my grain soaking(5-7lbs of grain), more so for anti clumping.

  From what I've read they claim a 1:1ratio of gypsum/lime, in a grain soak, is the optional ratio..but they don't mention weight or any correlation to the size of their tested grain batches. 

  So...has anyone any experience using this combo?  If so at 1:1 ... How much grain...how much water..or is the water's starting ph more relevant than the amount!?

While on this topic, does anyone have feed back as to adding either lime or gypsum to supplemented blocks?  If their study shows results on grain spawn wouldn't the same be assumed for the block?


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Offlinesendmehummus
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Harry Manbach]
    #26981747 - 10/12/20 03:11 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I have yet to use gypsum in any of my jars or blocks. I guess it depends on what you're growing.. but for me, I can always get my oyster mycelium busted up enough with some gentle smacks. Whats the point of adding gypsum to blocks though? Never heard of that.


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OfflineHarry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: sendmehummus]
    #26981794 - 10/12/20 03:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Well the link I included talks about the advantages using different ratios of lime/gypsum on different grains  apparently determining an equal ratio of each aids in mycelium growth on grains at least..a good read if you care to click.

But,considering those results I was wondering if the same would apply to supplemented blocks...because in theory it would, I'd think, and asked if anyone has experience with running said experiments.

Ps...I never used gypsum to aid in myceliated grain breaking up, more so on millet,so the wet grains wouldn't stick as much before/after pc cycle. 
..it would appear I need a nifty ph meter..


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Harry Manbach]
    #26982080 - 10/12/20 06:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

That link only led me to the base website juniorpublishers.com which didn't tell me anything.  A permission issue? 

I dunno but can you rephrase what the point is?  I've never found gypsum to help in anything as long as you get grain prep right.


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OfflineHarry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Forrester]
    #26982227 - 10/12/20 07:43 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you for the constructive feedback Forrester!  Possibly the pdf link? https://juniperpublishers.com/aibm/pdf/AIBM.MS.ID.555871.pdf

If not,the gist of it was based on oyster Mycelium and according to their study,millet being the most effective grain...they concluded that an equal ratio of gypsum and lime ,introduced into a grain prep soak, resulted in a noticeable difference in growth compared to other ratios/ no gypsum or lime at all.  Possibly misunderstanding their reasoning,but more as a ph buffer than as supplementation.
  So with that reasoning, no evidence to back it up first hand, the same theory would apply to blocks..supplemented or not...correct?

Again, I've only ever used gypsum with no scientific reasoning other than the grains seemed to be ready for inoculation quicker(loose/dry hulls) ..other than that Ive never noticed a growth difference, however I hadn't combined it with lime,nor monitored ph. 

Curious if anyone else has gone down this particular lane?


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Harry Manbach]
    #26982711 - 10/13/20 01:47 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Ok cool that link works I'll have to check it out after work.  Interested if anyone has tried as well, ph can definitely make a lot of difference.


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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Forrester]
    #26982741 - 10/13/20 03:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

They're likely talking about pelletized lime not hydrated lime. BIG difference! Yes, pelletised lime acts as a buffer. It will help the pH maintain a neutral level until its exhausted. Mycelium do create an a acidic environment as they break down lignin. It also provides calcium which is good in fruit body development. Ever since this was explained to me,I've always used pelletized lime in everything I use to some degree or another: grain and sub. Gypsum isnt a buffer, but it seems to help the grains from sticking together.
Its dirt cheap and if it can help at all, I might as well. I dont need a scientific analysis to tell me that.


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OfflineHarry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: FlufferNutter]
    #26982833 - 10/13/20 06:58 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Well that's interesting about the pelletized vs hydrated...I'm not positive if they state that, from what I remember they said calcium from both lime/gypsum (carbonate/sulphate) acted as a ph buffer oxidating the acid put off by the mycelium so it sounds like you're on the money with that.  However,it's worth a read because their scientific analysis contradicts your opinion with a noticeable growth difference with gypsum added in equal amounts with lime. There's multiple ratios they tested with 1:1 being optimal..but no weights or batch sizes..


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OfflineHarry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Harry Manbach]
    #26984605 - 10/14/20 07:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

So I grabbed some pelletized lime at the feed store yesterday ,a thank you to FlufferNutter as I hadn't considered the differences in the lime.

Guess I'm on my own on this one..but has anyone been troubled to monitor ph? Whether that be in your grain soak or your substrate?  I've never been troubled to think of trying it, but that seems to be the basis of their study..regulating ph for optimal growth.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Harry Manbach]
    #26985386 - 10/14/20 03:29 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I've never tried.  Would be interesting to have a Ph meter and test that stuff, but I lost mine long ago.


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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OfflineHarry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Forrester]
    #26985521 - 10/14/20 04:39 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Agreed,minus the lost part!  I looked at the feed store,but all they had was the soil test kits.  It'll have to wait until next month's orders/budget lol.  I'd especially be curious the ph of fresh soaked grain vs fully colonized.

  Regardless, Figured I'd soak a couple extra jars each week with their 1:1 ratio and see how they compare to my regular jars...kinda like throwing dicks at a fire without a weight measurement tho...think I'm gonna go low at first with 5grams lime/gypsum.

  Further more, apparently I'm going from millet to winter rye as well(stock issue@feed supply) so I'll have that variable in there as well


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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Harry Manbach]
    #26986146 - 10/14/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I've always added lime and gypsum to substrates at about 1%. Gypsum just because I had it for grain. It does supply sulfur and calcium. Calcium carbonate to increase ph and calcium source.

Since using oats ,never use additives in grain.


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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Harry Manbach]
    #26986514 - 10/15/20 06:47 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Gypsum is great for adding some minerals and helping to prevent clumping.  You don't want to use lime.
RR


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OfflineHarry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #26986540 - 10/15/20 07:16 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you Quadman for the 1% reference in substrate.  I think I'm gonna hold off until I can run a couple different species on grain with/without this combo before comparing substrate additives.  Even tho in the ph theory,it'd be best.

RR I did the same,more so for anti clumping with the millet..but after reading that study proposing it acts more as a ph buffer, as well as never monitoring my ph levels myself to dispute this, I figured it was worth consideration. 
Is there a specific reason you definitively say to not use lime?


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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Harry Manbach]
    #26997048 - 10/21/20 09:21 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I have been using "hydrated lime" for pretty much all of my subs for quite a long time now and it (for me) has proven to decrease contams and has never slowed mycelium growth, at least with the species that have that I have grown. If I were to choose between the two, it would be lime hands down.


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OfflineHarry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: GreenGills]
    #26997755 - 10/22/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think anyone is actually reading the article I posted,rather than just chiming in with their own personal,unfounded claims.  Rye berries just came back into stock so I have a few test jars going to draw my own conclusions,based on the study and my results!


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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Harry Manbach]
    #26998767 - 10/22/20 09:56 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Harry Manbach said:
I don't think anyone is actually reading the article I posted,rather than just chiming in with their own personal,unfounded claims.  Rye berries just came back into stock so I have a few test jars going to draw my own conclusions,based on the study and my results!



You are correct in my not reading the study. My understanding now is that the grain was soaked for 24 hr and drained then added the 1:1 ratio to the grain before pressure cooking. Personally I used to soak with the gypsum. So maybe I should try adding gypsum/lime to grain after the soak.I may experiment.


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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Quadman]
    #26998877 - 10/22/20 11:31 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

i see that they find best results with a 1:1 ratio of lime:gypsum but what is the ratio of lime and gypsum to grains?

would these results carry over to any other species? or are oysters creating more acids during colonization than others?


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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: Quadman]
    #26998878 - 10/22/20 11:31 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Link is broken. Just remove everything after ".php". That is probably why people did not read it.



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OfflineHarry Manbach
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Re: Lime/gypsum for grain spawn? [Re: bogdancev]
    #26999172 - 10/23/20 06:27 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deadmandave said:
i see that they find best results with a 1:1 ratio of lime:gypsum but what is the ratio of lime and gypsum to grains?

would these results carry over to any other species? or are oysters creating more acids during colonization than others?



Great question! One I asked myself and others..after quadmans input of 1% in his substrate and lack of information in the study I have different jars inoculated last night with some branch oyster. I went with a control, 0.5%/0.5% gypsum/lime and 1%/1%. As far as the weight I went off the dry weight of the grains before soaking.  Granted this isn't what the study was based on, but a starting point nonetheless. Also hit a couple jars with lion's mane as well
..still need to get a decent ph meter and start keeping some more in depth logs!


Quote:

bogdancev said:
Link is broken. Just remove everything after ".php". That is probably why people did not read it.







Yes,thank you, Forrester pointed this out as well and I provided a pdf link that works already
https://juniperpublishers.com/aibm/pdf/AIBM.MS.ID.555871.pdf


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