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Dhearic


Registered: 01/24/14
Posts: 846
Loc: Neverland
Last seen: 9 months, 21 days
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: polyflakes]
#26978026 - 10/10/20 06:43 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Credit where credit is due.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 7 months, 5 days
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Quote:
Rumblestrip said: Thanks for the tip about the walmart vacutainers Blue! When i used to work with pans and cubes i did them full cycle without agar, spores to lc, clones to lc. There are a couple of Mexican species however that donโt clone well to lc for me and I've had to go back to agar for them.
Yeah, I'm definitely not against agar, clean techniques, sectoring, or even clones. I've done all those things, and you should eventually learn about them because they are important. But I'm just saying that once you achieve a viable LC with what you want, you don't have to keep going back to spores or keep agar plates. Imagine an LC like a certain development point that you can stay at once you are there, a kind of time capsule.
In theory, LCs can even last as long as spores too! The scientific research I read about sterile water mycelium mixes said it can survive 10 years in cold storage! I don't know if that's true, and I'm not sure if you need totally sugar-free water to make that work, but that's pretty amazing! I bet that if you have a low-sugar solution (say 0.4% rather than the usual 4%), you could store an LC for up to several years in cold storage.
It would be interesting to see if those Mexican species could survive in a lower sugar LC. I usually use a 4% solution of 10g corn sugar, 10g dry malt extract, and 500 ml RO water, but I have chatted with others who use closer to 1.5%. It could be that some species requires lower sugar content, a certain stirring speed (or no stirring) or maybe they just don't do well in LCs. That's kind of why I wrote this post. I'd like to know what works for you.
So far I have smaller bags with flour being suggested, which is cool. That sounds like a great way to reduce sterilization time for smaller runs, but I'd love to know what else you all have discovered about LCs. What about the more exotic LC ingredients like peptone or various antibiotics? I have the stuff around here but don't know much about it except for cordyceps.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 7 months, 5 days
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: polyflakes] 1
#26978542 - 10/10/20 01:29 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
polyflakes said: I have always thought using a LC was so much less trouble then g2g and its the same idea mycelium not spores.
It definitely can be. LCs can also be a real pain if you don't understand them. Just like grains, though, you learn how to spot problems with LCs after awhile. You know how cloudy, for example, is expected and how cloudy means it's hopelessly contaminated. You learn how often to shake the jars or what speed to spin them (and when to not spin them at all). And soon they are no more scary than any other technique. I think people who say they are harder, just had some bad luck and gave up too soon. Like anything else in the hobby, you have to stick with it to get good at it.
Edited by Blue Helix (10/10/20 01:48 PM)
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 7 months, 5 days
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: Blue Helix]
#26978546 - 10/10/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Here's a paper that talks about decade storage possibilities of LC in sterile water. That's pretty amazing!
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tripdawg420
low life with no life



Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 7,071
Loc: illinois
Last seen: 1 hour, 58 minutes
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: Blue Helix]
#26978551 - 10/10/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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why even mess w lc when theres g2g
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JHOVA
Post whore


Registered: 02/17/17
Posts: 4,727
Loc:
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G2G in a sab sucks dick with bags.
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๐ด ๐ฐ ๐ผ ๐ฒ ๐ป ๐ธ ๐ฝ ๐ถ ๐
๐
๐ฐ ๐ฟ
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tripdawg420
low life with no life



Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 7,071
Loc: illinois
Last seen: 1 hour, 58 minutes
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: JHOVA]
#26978570 - 10/10/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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how does it
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 7 months, 5 days
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Quote:
tripdawg420 said: why even mess w lc when theres g2g
I know, right!? LOL Man, you aren't even good at trolling. Let me give it a shot, and you take notes, okay? Try this for size:
Quote:
I had this friend who like did g2g all the time and this other guy who did LCs, and the LC guy was always fussing with contamination and shit while the g2g guy was like pulling pounds. The LC guy got all upset and learned about g2g because he didn't know a thing about it, and soon the ex-LC guy was pulling like truckloads of mushrooms off half-pint jars. Crazy LCs aren't worth it, dude - total waste of time! g2g be the only way to fly!
Now, do you see how when you add more details to the fabricated story that it seems more legit? And do you see how if you insult the technique you don't understand (LCs in this case), you can create a more emotive message that is more likely to give you the attention you crave? PM me sometime and I'll help you troll better. Soon you'll be as good as me at it, and then you can hijack entire threads so all they talk about is YOU, YOU, and YOU. You can be the center of attention - online at least.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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I personally find that bags were unwieldy with G2G in a SAB. Only tried it a couple times and switched to LC for bags in the SAB and had good success. I still use LC for just about everything these days.
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tripdawg420
low life with no life



Registered: 02/02/09
Posts: 7,071
Loc: illinois
Last seen: 1 hour, 58 minutes
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: Blue Helix]
#26978592 - 10/10/20 02:06 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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i just asked a question and your opinon lc suck bro when there is way other better ways of growing if u can do agar there is no need for a lc
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 7 months, 5 days
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: Pastywhyte]
#26978594 - 10/10/20 02:07 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I personally find that bags were unwieldy with G2G in a SAB. Only tried it a couple times and switched to LC for bags in the SAB and had good success. I still use LC for just about everything these days.
I've had success with g2g, but I too find it a bit unwieldly. I think LCs to sterile bulk is a good technique for the vast majority of people there that want to graduate from PF Tek. It's good for up to say 20 pounds fresh or so which is way beyond what I want. If you are trying to grow edibles professionally, though, LC-to-sterilized-bulk-bags becomes unwieldly because you have to sterilize the substrate into multiple bags. The bags are too expensive and the energy and cookers are crazy expensive. Take a button mushroom farmer: they do huge trays that are five or more feet by 2 or 3 feet. If they were to try to do LC to bulk, the energy expense to sterilize the substrate alone would sink them. A lot of them, instead, buy spawn from a spawn vendor like Amycel or make their own spawn with LCs or g2g transfers in a sterile environment. They then pasteurize their bulk compost and spawn it. From a productivity standpoint that makes total sense to them whereas LC-to-bulk would not work on that scale. But for the tiny trays I see on this site with folks wanting a little more than PF Tek but not wanting 20 or more pounds, I don't see why one would bother with g2g really. It just really adds more sterile technique steps really. I guess if you have a flow hood that'd be fine, but those are pretty expensive and, much more importantly, big.
Edited by Blue Helix (10/10/20 02:43 PM)
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Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 hours, 5 minutes
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Nice post, BH. I use all of your methods as you know. I think a little wait time before spinning is always good. So I do it no matter the circumstance. Same principle when I inject bags. I'll let it sit a day before I mix it up. Cloudy LC's will clear up...I just wait until the myc has overtaken the jar before I use.
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Nobler Hino
a dojo and a forge?!


Registered: 08/29/15
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Deep Ellum
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: Pastywhyte]
#26978600 - 10/10/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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For awhile I was using liquid inoculation into liquid culture, then spinning it on a stir plate for a day or two. I would see wicked colonization speed in there but didn't like running my stir plate all day on low. Weak ass stir plate only lasted a few months.
I dig lc, I should get back into them.
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   "The sacred mushroom takes me by the hand and brings me to the world where everything is known. It is they, the sacred mushrooms, that speak in a way I can understand. I ask them and they answer me.โ โ Maria Sabina
Edited by Nobler Hino (10/10/20 02:11 PM)
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 7 months, 5 days
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: Asura]
#26978610 - 10/10/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: Nice post, BH. I use all of your methods as you know. I think a little wait time before spinning is always good. So I do it no matter the circumstance. Same principle when I inject bags. I'll let it sit a day before I mix it up. Cloudy LC's will clear up...I just wait until the myc has overtaken the jar before I use.

You know the funny part is, Asura, that I just figured this out. That's why I wrote this post. All these years and I was always starting the spinning right away using an agar wedge or a couple ml of a stored LC. And it always worked, but I started having problems when I started using very tiny mycelium transfers with the sterile swabs rather than agar wedges. I couldn't figure it out. "How was it dying?" I kept wondering. I even started to think my lids were not working or something like that. Then I figured it out: it was because I was doing spinning too early on too small of a piece of mycelium I think. Now I know, so I wanted to get it out there.
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Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 hours, 5 minutes
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: Blue Helix]
#26978635 - 10/10/20 02:38 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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To be fair, I only recently discovered this myself during "Summer of Failure" 
Also, I think it's best to make a 200-250ml LC (thanks mushboy). Keep the "battle volume" small as it were. Can't speak for cubes at all, but cyans will absolutely overtake that in 4-5 days.
LC's were in fashion when I joined the board, but fell out of favor. But I am seeing more videos of commercial growers who are using it lately and it seems more people are willing to give it a go again.
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Rumblestrip


Registered: 04/21/19
Posts: 263
Loc: Canada
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: Blue Helix]
#26978648 - 10/10/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
Rumblestrip said: Thanks for the tip about the walmart vacutainers Blue! When i used to work with pans and cubes i did them full cycle without agar, spores to lc, clones to lc. There are a couple of Mexican species however that donโt clone well to lc for me and I've had to go back to agar for them.
Yeah, I'm definitely not against agar, clean techniques, sectoring, or even clones. I've done all those things, and you should eventually learn about them because they are important. But I'm just saying that once you achieve a viable LC with what you want, you don't have to keep going back to spores or keep agar plates. Imagine an LC like a certain development point that you can stay at once you are there, a kind of time capsule.
In theory, LCs can even last as long as spores too! The scientific research I read about sterile water mycelium mixes said it can survive 10 years in cold storage! I don't know if that's true, and I'm not sure if you need totally sugar-free water to make that work, but that's pretty amazing! I bet that if you have a low-sugar solution (say 0.4% rather than the usual 4%), you could store an LC for up to several years in cold storage.
It would be interesting to see if those Mexican species could survive in a lower sugar LC. I usually use a 4% solution of 10g corn sugar, 10g dry malt extract, and 500 ml RO water, but I have chatted with others who use closer to 1.5%. It could be that some species requires lower sugar content, a certain stirring speed (or no stirring) or maybe they just don't do well in LCs. That's kind of why I wrote this post. I'd like to know what works for you.
So far I have smaller bags with flour being suggested, which is cool. That sounds like a great way to reduce sterilization time for smaller runs, but I'd love to know what else you all have discovered about LCs. What about the more exotic LC ingredients like peptone or various antibiotics? I have the stuff around here but don't know much about it except for cordyceps.
The mexican species do well in lc but not directly from the fruit, at least it's hit and miss. There is often some contamination that is best dealt with on agar. I think it's because they often take a couple of weeks to mature and these species like to be pretty wet the whole time. There's more opportunity for bacteria to grow within the fruit. Never had such issues with pans. Admittedly I'm pretty quick to toss suspect lcs, maybe i should ve hanging onto them to see if they clear up after the mycelium gets a good foothold.
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A.k.a
Stranger



Registered: 10/27/19
Posts: 16,816
Loc: Gaming the system
Last seen: 23 hours, 55 minutes
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I love lc. Over the last couple weeks Iโve had three in a row fail to grow, but I also switched techniques from using a transfer size agar piece to using myc I scraped off the plate. Then I shook the hell out of it like normal. I had no idea you could kill myc, I figured if it can survive a blender it can take anything. Guess I need to let the next one chill for a few days.
As far as clones go the main appeal for me is consistent potency, but thatโs a cubes issue. Canโt really imagine having weak pans.
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LAGM2020     
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Funky Monkey
Human Suppository


Registered: 05/14/19
Posts: 1,099
Loc: In your MOM's poop shoot
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: Asura]
#26978767 - 10/10/20 04:13 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: To be fair, I only recently discovered this myself during "Summer of Failure" 
Also, I think it's best to make a 200-250ml LC (thanks mushboy). Keep the "battle volume" small as it were. Can't speak for cubes at all, but cyans will absolutely overtake that in 4-5 days.
LC's were in fashion when I joined the board, but fell out of favor. But I am seeing more videos of commercial growers who are using it lately and it seems more people are willing to give it a go again.
I JUST got started with LCs and will keep this in mind. The ones I just posted in this video in this thread I just made are pretty big...
Makes complete sense that I would want batches the myc doesn't have to fight so long to colonize...
BTW, check out that thread. If any of you have videos of anything cult related to share I would love to see and talk about it.
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A.k.a
Stranger



Registered: 10/27/19
Posts: 16,816
Loc: Gaming the system
Last seen: 23 hours, 55 minutes
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lol my first lcs were quarts. I had zero idea how much grain that would actually knock up.
250ml is perfect for me. Enough to do a ton of jars and be done and not have to worry that I contaminated it while using it. So much faster than growing out enough plates to do the same amount of spawn.
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LAGM2020     
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Some notes about LCs [Re: A.k.a] 1
#26978792 - 10/10/20 04:29 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I used to do loads of small volume LCโs and just pour each into a bag, quick and easy like a small master.
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