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InvisibleRahz
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Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Morality tests
    #26977513 - 10/09/20 07:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

One that has gone around lately, attributed to Henry Rollins...

Do you return the shopping cart? You don't have to. It's not against the law to not return a shopping cart. There are no repercussions for not returning the shopping cart.

Another one I thought of. A dead person who may have been a family member or may have been a previous resident at the address has a voting ballot mailed to them. What would you do with it? In a different vein and perhaps more pertinent, what would you want to do with it?

Both of these questions might imply a right answer. Are there right or best or moral answers to these questions?


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Morality tests [Re: Rahz]
    #26977541 - 10/09/20 07:46 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I would get rid of the debris by directing it to someone who most values it.
I do not like keeping debris.
I don't want to look far for the dispensation.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Morality tests [Re: Rahz] * 2
    #26977546 - 10/09/20 07:48 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think there's any systematic way to answer this. One possible approach would be to ask oneself, "What would Jesus do?" As corny as this may seem to some, it's a pretty good test for the moral course.

Personally, I return shopping carts, and I would destroy the ballot. This election cycle, I must admit I would want to fill it out with my choices. But honestly I would destroy it.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Morality tests [Re: Rahz]
    #26977941 - 10/10/20 04:11 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I personally love the shopping cart example and think it's absolutely a valid one.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Morality tests [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26978139 - 10/10/20 08:28 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I don't think there's any systematic way to answer this. One possible approach would be to ask oneself, "What would Jesus do?" As corny as this may seem to some, it's a pretty good test for the moral course.

Personally, I return shopping carts, and I would destroy the ballot. This election cycle, I must admit I would want to fill it out with my choices. But honestly I would destroy it.




So you would want to fill it out, but because you would destroy it, you obviously (?) would also want to destroy it, and there would be cognitive dissonance involved.

So I guess what I'm getting at is, what would compel you to destroy it? And does that represent a basis for morality?

In the same way, what quality does Jesus hold or represent that creates the appearance of morality and is being moral "right"? If being moral is right, is that simply a subjective point of view? Subjective meaning, it's a personal choice and there is no right or wrong to it. If that is the case, it not being inherently wrong to use the ballot, what's the big deal?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Morality tests [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26978144 - 10/10/20 08:33 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I personally love the shopping cart example and think it's absolutely a valid one.




I guess other things to consider would be, there could be repercussions. It would invalidate the golden rule. This could cause inner turmoil if it went against the grain of one's sensibilities. It could lower the expectation that others should be considerate towards you. There could also be social consequence. Someone might see you and frown or say something derogatory. If it was an employee and they saw it more than once, maybe they would key your car one day.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Morality tests [Re: Rahz]
    #26978160 - 10/10/20 08:48 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
So you would want to fill it out, but because you would destroy it, you obviously (?) would also want to destroy it, and there would be cognitive dissonance involved.

So I guess what I'm getting at is, what would compel you to destroy it? And does that represent a basis for morality?

In the same way, what quality does Jesus hold or represent that creates the appearance of morality and is being moral "right"? If being moral is right, is that simply a subjective point of view? Subjective meaning, it's a personal choice and there is no right or wrong to it. If that is the case, it not being inherently wrong to use the ballot, what's the big deal?





No, there would be no cognitive dissonance. I can hold conflicting ideas in my head and not have problems. Truth is, I was being rather facetious -- my principal action, without regret, would be to destroy the ballot. There would be no conflict.

I personally do not feel, as so many apparently do, that morality is subjective. I think there is an objective component, and it is based on a principle of compassion.

I think the truth is that we all really know what the proper moral course is in any given situation. The human mind is geared for that. So the problem is not in finding a better definition of morality, but rather how to find a way to get people to stop disregarding their consciences in doing the wrong thing.


Edited by DividedQuantum (10/11/20 09:25 AM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Morality tests [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26979328 - 10/11/20 12:15 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
... The human mind is geared for that. So the problem is not in finding a better definition of morality, but rather how to find a way to get people to stop disregarding their consciences and do the wrong thing anyway.




:thumbup:

But you need to proofread the last line


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Morality tests [Re: Rahz]
    #26979428 - 10/11/20 03:29 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think stuff like that says anything about real morality. Real morality is more often about the big decisions you make, the people you help or fuck over, or even the things you avoid for selfish reasons.

Like, if a family member needs serious help, do you help them, or find any way you can to avoid it? If someone's life is in danger, and you'd have to endanger your own life to help them, do you? How often do you hurt others for your own benefit? How often do you choose yourself and your own wants and needs over those of the people you love and care about? Would you house a family member if they were homeless, or would you find any way to avoid it? Stuff like that.

Those things get closer to morality than just returning a shopping cart. But please, try to return shopping carts because we are living in a society here.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Morality tests [Re: Rahz]
    #26979462 - 10/11/20 04:38 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

DQ seems right in an ideal world, but...

Another aspect we all know but forget:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

for-instance

Some spoil their kids, and some over discipline them, all in the name of "love",
without a clue as to how they're screwing other peoples' lives up, for years to come, or 'forever'.

Then there is the whole matter of self deception, and how we screw our own lives up, while imagining we are good, which overlaps with nooneman 's points.


Edited by laughingdog (10/11/20 04:40 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Morality tests [Re: laughingdog]
    #26979565 - 10/11/20 07:38 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

it is a shopping cart web world.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Morality tests [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26981435 - 10/12/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

for-instance

Some spoil their kids, and some over discipline them, all in the name of "love",
without a clue as to how they're screwing other peoples' lives up, for years to come, or 'forever'.







Good point, and it reminds me of how hunting-gathering cultures dealt with child-rearing. Because of a higher degree of bodily contact early on, which included entire families and bands (which is greatly reduced in civilized societies), coupled with a very hands-off, "laissez-faire" approach to upbringing, individuals are typically much healthier psychologically in adulthood.

In general, older siblings would teach infants and toddlers what is and is not acceptable behavior among the tribe. Adults were very hands-off. Children learn very quickly. If a child defecates too close to the hearth, others will make disapproving sounds and move the child away, but there was no disciplining at all. No spanking, no yelling -- just letting the child figure it out. If a young child got mad at the adults, took a stick and attacked them, all the adults would do is laugh. It was an intensely different way of rearing children, and it was clearly more effective than our own.

Our own methods create a "loving" hyper-focus on a child, which results in a lot of psychological problems later in life and in general. Hunter-gatherers seemed to instill the ethic that no one is more special than anyone else, and this creates a tremendous psychological balance across whole cultures.

As far as morality, for the reasons listed hgs had a simpler conception of morality that was much more effective and less psychologically damaging. This is confirmed in hundreds of instances of anthropological field studies.

Food for thought, anyway.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Morality tests [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26981792 - 10/12/20 03:34 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

children seldom have a good grasp of consequences of their actions, but they are great at bouncing back.
adults are just grown up children, same problems but less bouncy.

to do good, you have to want to observe and not be lazy when your turn to help comes.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Morality tests [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26981920 - 10/12/20 04:57 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Morality tests [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26982065 - 10/12/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Nice.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Morality tests [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26982468 - 10/12/20 09:44 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

for-instance

Some spoil their kids, and some over discipline them, all in the name of "love",
without a clue as to how they're screwing other peoples' lives up, for years to come, or 'forever'.







.... It was an intensely different way of rearing children, and it was clearly more effective than our own.

.....




.    It would certainly seem so. I never lived with HGs. But civilized western white folks have all sorts of mental health issues, tensions, & anxieties. When I had access to TV, 20-30 years ago and the nature shows were better, I did see documentaries on HGs and they did seem happier, than civilized H. Sapiens.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Morality tests [Re: laughingdog]
    #26982697 - 10/13/20 01:26 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

and to not do bad we have to be honest with ourselves

:laugh:


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Morality tests [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26982763 - 10/13/20 04:59 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

always work as much as possible
increase work time with good work
no weeds or as few as possible


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Morality tests [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26982773 - 10/13/20 05:17 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

one of our best chances is to get things done all the time or almost all the time

works for me


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Morality tests [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26982789 - 10/13/20 06:00 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Hume - nice guy!


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