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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26971614 - 10/06/20 06:06 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

it is easiest to see one's own flaws in others first.
it helps to analyze crowds with a good friend.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26971619 - 10/06/20 06:18 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:
Sometimes you do really know better than the individual.



I disagree. Sometimes one can take a guess, and that guess may turn out to be right, and the other person can validate your guess, but that's all it; a guess.

One simply cannot know the truth of another's inner world, IMO.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26971624 - 10/06/20 06:33 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:
Sometimes you do really know better than the individual.



I disagree. Sometimes one can take a guess, and that guess may turn out to be right, and the other person can validate your guess, but that's all it; a guess.

One simply cannot know the truth of another's inner world, IMO.




Everything is a guess. We take guesses at our own minds as well. Theres a wall of bias we have in ourselves.

I think theres definitely some times where you can tell someone else what is really going on and help them through it. We lie to ourselves constantly. Self-delude. And a lot of it are things that happened a million times before to a million other people. Those other people can give insight onto those experiences.


I mean just look at a therapist. They help you see things. Of course they are just guessing. But do they not help? Do they not accurately find the core issues?



I think if we are to not point out the flaws in others thinking that it would negatively impact society. What are the negative aspects of telling someone what you think they think? I dont see the cons.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Oldnameforgotten] * 1
    #26971639 - 10/06/20 07:01 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah but a therapist helps you to steer your way to seeing your inner truth, right? They hardly sit about postulating that 'this is your problem' and 'you feel this way about this. A good one approaches the situation with humility and a clause of 'this is my guess/thought/suspicion', leaving you free to take it or leave it.

Like anything we say, it all comes down to how it's presented, does it not? I'm guessing you haven't read the entire thread, because it comes down to that; people who say 'I know you like/don't like/feel _______ about ______', in an arrogant manner; uninvited.

There's few things that annoy me in this life any longer, but that is definitely one of them.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26971654 - 10/06/20 07:18 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

If their goal is to help an individual then I am all for it even if it upsets the individual.

If their goal is to sound smart or insult an individual then im against it.



I wouldn't want it removed entirely though. I feel like the irritation one may feel from someone doing this does not weigh out the potential benefits of correcting someones delusion.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26971662 - 10/06/20 07:34 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Fair enough. I can see where you're coming from, and yet the phrase 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' instantly rings about my head as I consider the first line in your response.

It's definitely nuanced, inasmuch as the act can absolutely be a noble one, but at the same time, I know that the only times people have got through to me to introduce me to my own misguided or unseen thinking have been when said people have opened my mind to it by a line of questioning, rather than stating categorically. I am grateful that this has happened often in my years.

Still I think that I, and a great many other humans on this planet, are very likely to reject even the best advice if it is presented forcefully. I'm sure there's a good name for this situation. Easy does it, or something.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26971690 - 10/06/20 08:02 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I find it interesting that you dont like the arrogance of someone suggesting a flaw in an individuals thinking..... but the individual being stubborn and refusing to listen to reason due to the basket it was presented in is fine with you.


I think the error there that has a very clear negative impact on society are the individuals being irritated by correction. Definitely not an individual sounding arrogant. I dont see the negative impact on society of someone sounding arrogant.


And I am not being contrarian here! This is something I have thought a lot about. There are other benefits to presenting your ideas directly and assertively. You can also embarrass yourself and that will utilize your ego for good. It will make you not want to make a mistake again.



I think modesty is MUCH worse for society than pride. Modesty is the thing I reckon we should despise.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26971731 - 10/06/20 08:43 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I guess we just see the issue from 180 degrees apart; I can't get behind the idea that 'modesty is a thing we should despise' or that it is worse than pride in any way. Just doesn't sit right with me. Arrogance is horrible to be on the receiving end of, I feel, and I know I'm not alone. After all, as users on a banned substance forum, do we not generally agree that we don't like being told what's best for us?

BTW I don't think being stubborn is 'fine' - I just think it important to accept the quandaries of the human condition head on, rather than to look at the world from an idealistic standpoint - which is to say, most people, when forcefully told what to do/think, will outright reject what they're told, whether it is good for them as not.

Subtlety is highly required for the inception of a new paradigm, in most instances, IMO.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26971785 - 10/06/20 09:25 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Yes most people do disagree with my opinion on this topic.

I guess my main issue is there just doesnt seem to be a negative impact of arrogance other than "it bothers me". It seems like being arrogant is a beneficial trait both for the individual and also society.

Meanwhile modesty only plays a role in making you more socially accepted while at the same time manipulating others into a lesser understanding (by definition) of the world.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26971809 - 10/06/20 09:55 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Arrogance causes separation between humans.

That, IMO, is one of the biggest issues facing our species. It is endemic, given that we are a social species designed to work together, not apart.

Look at the greatest ills facing us; politics, religion, war. Do these things not thrive on and are rooted in, arrogance?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #26971846 - 10/06/20 10:16 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Arrogance like daring to fly? Daring to question the church?


I dont think we can categorically say both that arrogance is the cause or even main cause of these ills and that arrogance isnt a needed tool for the benefit of society.


So many factors play a role. Greed. Self-esteem. Predicament. Power dynamics.


And if anything the wish to remove arrogance from the dominant species on Earth is the most utopian of all wishes. We got here by being selfish and arrogant. Daring to explore, daring to fight, daring to innovate.


I think at best we can pretend we aren't arrogant. And what is that if not manipulation?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26972867 - 10/06/20 08:09 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:
If their goal is to help an individual then I am all for it even if it upsets the individual.

If their goal is to sound smart or insult an individual then im against it.



I wouldn't want it removed entirely though. I feel like the irritation one may feel from someone doing this does not weigh out the potential benefits of correcting someones delusion.




Seeking out a therapist is not the same as receiving unsolicited advice. In either case, the individual will generally be upset. Bringing up things that were previously being actively avoided can do that and therapy can make things worse before it get's better.

I think when it comes to unsolicited advice, if the aim is to help the individual they should tread lightly. Pushing someone away may or may not be an acceptable outcome.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #26973018 - 10/06/20 10:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:

Still I think that I, and a great many other humans on this planet, are very likely to reject even the best advice if it is presented forcefully. I'm sure there's a good name for this situation.




Some might call this psychological resistance. A bit of an obtuse point - often one politician will demand that another politician denounce someone or an organization. BLM members have been known to interrupt people's dinner and demand the diners repeat a slogan or make a hand gesture. It's human nature to not succumb to this pressure, even if you agree with the perspective. If you demand I denounce the KKK, I likely will not do it, and that doesn't reflect my actual opposition to the KKK. It would be wrong to assume I support the KKK if I refuse demands to denounce them.

An act of respect, if made mandatory, becomes an act of submission.


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26973039 - 10/06/20 11:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I DEMAND THAT YOU DENOUNCE THE KKK!!!!



:smile:


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