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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 20 days
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
#26964286 - 10/01/20 04:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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What exactly is arrogant? (Full sentences are helpful). How synchronistic that I just re-read a Quora article that I wrote and was notified for that it was upvoted. It addresses someone who, like yourself, conflated the brain with mind. Your statement "There is no scientific test for psychology" makes no sense. Psychology means study of the mind from the Greek psyche: mind, and an etymological connection to the Greek word logos which has several meanings. If you are referring to the word psyche (one of the words for mind) you'd be correct that there are only correlations with neural activity but no scientific proof of its existence. But it is as absurd to assert as the Behaviorists have that there is no such thing as mind. Mind or consciousness remains THE mystery of existence. Materialists presume that it is an epiphenomenon of neural activity, an 'emergent property' of bio-electrical processes, or a field-effect. They also assume that the brain produces mind. This is unproven and there are other hypotheses.
Mind, paradoxically, is subjectively known by mind. It is not a physical substance and is not constituted by physical parameters of mass, volume, extension in space, duration in time, or electrical charge. Mind is also not any known form of energy that can be detected by instrumentation on any known electromagnetic frequency. It is true that the brain does seem to generate electrical impulses that EEG and other devices can measure in terms of cps, e.g., Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta, and Gamma waves. But again, these are correlates of neural electrical signatures not mind qua mind.
One can find all kinds of studies to support one's position. As a licensed mental health professional since 1985 I have studied and participated in depth in certain disciplines such as Client Centered Therapy, Jungian Analytical Psychology and in Clinical Hypnotherapy in which I hold national board certification and status as a Diplomate and Fellow. But the important thing is that through my specialty I have been able to eliminate various types of suffering in subjects across the lifespan from 8 to octogenarians (my nonagenerian Holocaust survivor could not be helped because he was addicted to a Benzodiazepines, did not have the will to be weaned and hypnosis to sufficient depth cannot be achieved when Benzos are in one's system).
There are unethical practitioners, ineffectual practitioners, and yes there are out-and-out "quacks," charlatans, but there are also competent, capable and ethical practitioners within any of the mental health disciplines. The proof of efficacy is usually up to the client's report since their psychical malady is not apparent to observation. I mean, I do not subject a phobic client to the object of their phobia since that is cruel and unethical. But I have shown such phobic triggers afterwards to test the success of the treatment. However, in cases of physical symptoms like visible limps or audible stutters, I the therapist can witness their disappearance. I have witnessed bent posture from Fibromyalgia straighten up when the pain has left following treatment for a seemingly unrelated complaint. So like every other claim, there needs to be evidence only in the realm of psyche one is usually dependent on subjective report.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,953
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26964367 - 10/01/20 05:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I too like to sniff my own farts
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: sudly]
#26964392 - 10/01/20 05:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Don't we all
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Kickle]
#26964647 - 10/01/20 07:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 20 days
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: sudly]
#26964709 - 10/01/20 08:16 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I too like to sniff my own farts 
Try appreciating something you've produced that benefits someone else instead of benefitting from your own pleasure, such as it is.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/02/20 07:11 PM)
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Buckomcdoogle
Atypical obsessive.


Registered: 11/27/19
Posts: 932
Last seen: 8 months, 9 days
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26964979 - 10/01/20 11:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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The problem with diagnosing someone is that IT IS opinion based.
100 different mental disorders share a number of traits.
Nobody is a mind reader.
-------------------- "Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity" "Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence, the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is chaos and decay" "Logic leads to nihilism"
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,953
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: MarkostheGnostic] 2
#26965029 - 10/01/20 11:36 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Buckomcdoogle
Atypical obsessive.


Registered: 11/27/19
Posts: 932
Last seen: 8 months, 9 days
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: sudly]
#26965076 - 10/02/20 12:09 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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L00L I almost woke up my roommate
-------------------- "Nothing is more dangerous to your creativity than comfort and familiarity" "Nihilism is the most basic truth in existence, the only consistency throughout the world, and the universe is chaos and decay" "Logic leads to nihilism"
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
#26965687 - 10/02/20 10:57 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Parents can know their kids better than the kids sometimes know themselves.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26965703 - 10/02/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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kids also often know their parents better than they know themselves too.
it's contextual.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: redgreenvines]
#26965718 - 10/02/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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That too.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 20 days
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: Buckomcdoogle]
#26966526 - 10/02/20 07:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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HEALING someone does not require a diagnostic label. I do not answer to insurance companies so I do not require a diagnosis for treatment. Moreover, many of my clients are suffering from what would probably be diagnosed as PTSD if I needed to record something. I have seen clinical records of kids I used to work with, with a wide range of diagnoses from different clinicians. Over time one can narrow down what is going on within the name-game that the system uses. They delete disorders that I have observed (e.g., folie à deux, Shared Delusional Disorder), and create new ones. I'm on the side of R.D. Laing and others when it comes to the name-game. Fortunately, one does not need to be a "mind reader" when the unconscious gives up the trauma that has been generating symptoms for years or decades. I routinely tell people that "I have no crystal ball" and" I do not know you but I trust the process [of hypnotherapy]." This is true and I do not need preternatural assistance.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,953
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26966883 - 10/03/20 02:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Jim Jones did a lot of that folie a deux.

What have you cured?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Immy

Registered: 07/18/18
Posts: 11
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: sudly] 3
#26967727 - 10/03/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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I lost my personal identity from a catastrophic traumatic brain injury. For three yrs afterward, people around me were very comfortable telling me who I was. They would sometimes (often) completely contradict one another. Some of the early identity labels were helpful, such as being informed I was a mother, that I had been married previously to the father of my children (so was a wife, now a divorcée), that I had been an artist and technical and scientific illustrator, etc.... These were helpful because I used them to fill in content in order to function as these things or as a former of these things.
But some others were very unhelpful and untrue, and I rejected them once I recognized what they were, and I’m still doing that almost 6 yrs later. At the three yr mark, I cut out everyone who repeatedly lied to me about who I am and refused to stop when gently confronted.
The interesting thing about losing identity in an established life is that I was suddenly in the position of an infant being told by people who seemed to know more, who I am, how to behave, what is acceptable and unacceptable in society, etc..., but my memory slowly began to re-emerge and there were glaring contradictions that I have had to address. This is an ongoing process for me still.
Infants of parents who are not curious and fascinated enough to discover alongside their children who those children really are do a grave disservice to their children and humanity alike. When your friends and family aren’t curious, but rather certain of things they simply cannot know, you can still be curious. You do not have to accept their unwarranted certainty. They are likely some version of scared. It’s possible that they (subconsciously) cannot live with the uncertainty of curiosity and wonder, so they try to stiffen you into a piece of cardboard they can point at and say, “That’s a cardboard friend. They’re mine. They like apples.”
I developed the habit of being curious about the lack of curiosity expressed by such people. I’ve asked, “Can you tell me why you think that of me?” Then I’ve really listened. I gained so much self-awareness from this approach, including who is not admitted into my circle or life and why. I’ve learned compassion for the projections and fears of others and myself. So far, in my personal experience, I’ve not found any downside to “beginners mind.”
This is how I deal with this as it seems unending. For me, finding people who don’t do this has been impossible, and I accept that because it seems a ubiquitous human trait (thankfully that can be mitigated with awareness and deliberate behaviour). So I try to populate my life with people who delight in discovery and remain curious and fascinated by life.
People who aren’t that way tend to latch on for a time to “teach” me, but quickly fall away on their own because curiosity and openness to experience is anathema to them. I don’t mind that either. Maybe they’re supposed to be like that and I’m supposed to be like this. How would I know? Haha
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 20 days
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: sudly]
#26968136 - 10/03/20 07:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Folie à Plusieurs, 'a folly of several.' Jonestown used Flavor-Aid.
I have eliminated (rather than "cured") a host of symptoms originating from traumatic events as well as enhanced athletic performance by removing fears. I was quite popular with a number of pre-pubescent female tumblers, especially the children of those driven, Olympics-aspiring soccer moms. I have listed things that I've been successful with on at least a few occasions: Anger, Anxiety, Depression, Emotional Abuse, Fear, Grief, Guilt, Insomnia, Nightmares, Phobias, Procrastination, Psychogenic Pain, Physical Abuse, Psychedelic Flashbacks, to name a select handful here.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/03/20 08:52 PM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,953
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26968454 - 10/04/20 01:16 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Tis a shame we don't have psychedelic therapy for all that.
Could add quitting addictions to the list then too.
Hypnotherapy sounds like one of the biggest scams, like a psychic reading. Sure you could help people if they open up and you start an honest dialogue, but hypnotising them? :lol;
People seem more likely to hypnotise themselves to me.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 20 days
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: sudly]
#26969975 - 10/04/20 11:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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You're just ignorant of hypnosis. That is not my responsibility. Educate yourself, or not. It has been recognized by the American Medical Association since 1958. Only charlatans and criminals scam people not ethical and capable clinicians. I have pages and pages of gratitude in writing that I do not advertise with because it's gauche IMO. They are available to those who ask but so far nobody has requested to see the binder. Besides, you're just being a troll. 
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,953
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#26970100 - 10/05/20 03:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Don't forget the fine print
Quote:
In the study, Spiegel and his colleagues screened about 500 people in search of the most hypnotizable. The ability to be hypnotized is a highly stable trait—like IQ, Spiegel says—that can be tested by a hypnosis practitioner in a five-minute mini-hypnosis session. Not everyone can be hypnotized, but two thirds of adults can, and people who are easily hypnotized tend to be more trusting of others, more intuitive and more likely to get so caught up in a good movie or play that they forget they’re watching one, Spiegel explains. “They tend to be less insistent on logic and order and more experiential—they like using their imaginations. They find it fun.”
https://time.com/4426856/hypnosis-hypnotism-brain/
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: sudly]
#26970170 - 10/05/20 06:14 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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the ceremony of practitioner and client may include Hypnosis or some form of visualization and relaxation ritual to increase the trust and communication relationship.
many symbolic exchanges are normal during trust building. this kind of treatment involves trusted information transfer, and the development of trust in one's self as well as the other.
underlying the power of hypnosis is the power of suggestion as well as the power of ceremony and symbols and the resonant platform that relaxation and trust affords.
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Oldnameforgotten
Traveler


Registered: 10/19/19
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Loc: Pilbara Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 29 days
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Re: People who say they know your mind & motivations better than you do [Re: redgreenvines]
#26971440 - 10/05/20 11:46 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sometimes you do really know better than the individual.
I have many times in my life pointed out a delusion of another. With a girlfriend, family member, close friend, or a much younger person going through something I had experienced a long time ago.
I think critiques from others is a big part of personal growth. Someone assertive is going to have a much better chance of giving you the option of growth vs someone who would prefer to indulge your every fantasy so as to avoid confrontation.
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