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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" * 1
    #26971177 - 10/05/20 07:46 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

To the discussion about "when a baby develops consciousness"

in 2013 a science reporter declared that (flawed) evidence pointed to 5 months old as the age when a baby has consciousness.

This is now being rolled back, all the way back to a reasonable definition of consciousness as a thing separate from awareness.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/consciousness-goes-deeper-than-you-think


https://ejop.psychopen.eu/index.php/ejop/article/view/1388/pdf 

Towards the end he reveals that there is no sub-consciousness - I am no longer alone in this, although he blurs the clarity of it by extrapolating that since consciousness is so pervasive, it is everywhere.

I think that is because he is disconnecting memory from the question "what does it feel like?"
because if there is no memory - it never feels LIKE anything.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Edited by redgreenvines (10/05/20 07:57 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26971359 - 10/05/20 09:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

.  Even if you get all us non professionals to agree with you on this little internet forum, it will do nothing to refute the vast literature on the use of hypnosis, or the thousands helped by it. 
.    Academics could debate how to define 'subconscious' and 'unconscious', and what is the 'depth' of the dreaming mind vs, say the optical processing modules in the brain and so on, for years to come, and get paid to do so.
.    So I'm mystified as to what you hope to gain by repeatedly attacking oft used terms in psychology, here.

In particular Theodore X. Barber already made a living from a position attacking hypnosis:
    Hypnosis: A Scientific Approach (1969)
    LSD, Marihuana, Yoga and Hypnosis (1970)
    Biofeedback and Self-Control (1971)
  etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_X._Barber

.    And yet thousands are helped by hypnosis which makes use of the terms: 'subconscious' and 'unconscious',  and hypnosis is also accompanied by a vast literature containing all sorts of evidence, which also uses these terms.

.  for anyone interested this is a good starting point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_H._Erickson
.  Erickson is possibly the most respected psychologist of the last 100 years, with dozens maybe hundreds of books about him, and his methods, by professionals in the field and his work already available. He also published material himself. This being the case my going into details is pointless. To anyone interested, happy reading and enjoyment of the many videos and websites & free .pdfs, addressing the matter for free.

.    To assess your view point folks here would have to digest a lot of this material, and actually observe hypnosis in action, and possibly experience it. Outside of this forum are many such professional people already. Some in private practice, some at universities, and some teaching courses.
.    If I had a theory about art or painting I would go to artists or painters; if ideas about cooking to chefs, etc. ....
.    Who would go to an internet forum if they I wanted to learn hypnotic pain control for serious dental work?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #26971616 - 10/06/20 06:09 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

ok maybe some people need subconscious, and a few need god too, maybe that's why we have a pope.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26972353 - 10/06/20 03:06 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26972361 - 10/06/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Consciousness, in one idiom, is a continuum from Collective Unconscious to Personal Unconscious which becomes Preconscious and Subconscious (the liminal transition to self-conscious awareness) or Consciousness proper (which has degrees of concentration) and thence to Superconsciousness with rare Gamma-wave dominant states named by various spiritual conditions (Samadhis, Jhanas, Hitbodedut, etc).

The contents of past experiences which ordinarily lie unknown to Consciousness and which are typically unavailable to memory exist in what is generally called the (Personal) Unconscious. These contents are accessible by various techniques like narcosynthesis (narco-hypnosis), classic hypnosis at a requisite depth sufficient to elicit age regression. Psychedelics and psychedelic psychotherapy elicit material from the Unconscious that has formerly been unavailable to conscious awareness, as does Holotropic breathing and long-term personal analysis (I've undergone 8.5 years with 3 Jungians), but so do psychotic episodes. Art is a natural elicitation of unconscious material and the so-called "royal road to the unconscious" is dreaming.

Consciousness being THE mystery of existence can only be spoken of by metaphors, myths, idioms, and analogies. It is a non-physical verity without any material parameters and yet the use of constructs I suggested have practical applications in different domains.

As I've no doubt mentioned before, Edward Edinger's book Ego and Archetype presents the clearest Jungian description I've read anywhere of the Genesis myth of Adam and Eve as the birth of the ego (and self-consciousness) from the matrix of the Unconscious Self (the Garden). He draws on the children's art that was recorded by Rhoda Kellogg in her book Analyzing Children's Art which illustrates how the random scribbles of very young children begins to morph as lines cross. Intersecting lines eventually become circled. Either arms or legs begin to emanate from spherical 'bodies' or rays which frequently become 'Suns' both primitive mandalas (symbols of the Self). Now Kellogg was not a Jungian herself but the phenomenology of her examples parallels Jungian notions of a Collective Unconscious revealed in art.

There is the work of developmental psychologists and object relations people who have mapped out the progression of a separate ego that requires at least 6 months of life outside the womb to develop. These developments are well known and the various milestones of object permanence, object constancy, the embodied ego, etc. are well documented. Transcendence involves a wider more inclusive identity containing earlier stages but adding additional levels. The embodied ego yields to a mental ego, best typified for example by the 'terrible twos' when baby learns the word/concept "No." Compared with life immediately following birth as a "buzzing blooming confusion," and no psychi  differentiation between baby and environment, the growth of consciousness can be observed ifirst n behavioral changes and later in language.

It's ALL consciousness. I am panpsychic and panspiritist in this respect but against a metaphysical Ground of Pure Consciousness individual beings develop or at least transmit varying degrees of self-aware consciousness by their communication to other contingent beings. I know we've been down this road before, but the idioms I've used has practical application and demonstrable results.


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γνῶθι ĻƒĪ±į½Ļ„ĻŒĪ½ - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26972409 - 10/06/20 03:45 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

thanks Markos - ordered  Edward F. Edinger's book


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26976423 - 10/09/20 04:09 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

A beautiful quote. :sun:

Quote:

Consciousness may never arise—be it in babies, toddlers, children or adults—because it mayĀ alwaysĀ be there to begin with. For all we know, what arises is merely a metacognitiveĀ configurationĀ of preexisting consciousness. If so, consciousness may be fundamental in nature—an inherent aspect of every mental process, not a property constituted or somehow generated by particular physical arrangements of the brain. Claims, grounded in subjective reports of experience, of progress toward reducing consciousness to brain physiology may have little—if anything—to do with consciousness proper, but with mechanisms of metacognition instead. - Bernado Kastrup

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/consciousness-goes-deeper-than-you-think




I believe this would be applied to living things from bacteria to trees and ants. I can't see anyone suggesting rocks, silicate minerals, plastics or synthetic fabrics etc. would share this property.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #26976493 - 10/09/20 06:03 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think there is local consciousness without the local infrastructure for memory, so I am not so quick to add bacteria, and would not be inclined to include plants which occasionally seem to remember but actually have no infrastructure to solve problems by recalling what was similar among a vast store of previous experiences.

for bacteria and plants, if the solution is not solved by gene expression, tropism, or hormone, (even if mediated by a mycelial network which can carry hormone  as well as ions) then it is not solvable. these branches of life are not conscious per se, they do not think using any form of ideation, but they are full of living energy and activity.


--------------------
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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26976501 - 10/09/20 06:10 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

It's like when an Australian Rainforest Tree is damaged, it responds by releasing hydrogen cyanide.

Maybe consciousness alone is just a thing we overhype, and that the real deal of humanity is the metacognitive configuration of this pre-existing consciousness.

Maybe we just take the word consciousness too literally, applying it far too sparingly, when in reality it's the metacognitive configuration that deserves a sparing application. Imo.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #26976502 - 10/09/20 06:12 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

totality is what you are thinking of, like gaia, it is an idea that contains all consciousness and life, but it is not conscious.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26976510 - 10/09/20 06:23 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Why even use the word conscious if every living thing already has consciousness.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #26976773 - 10/09/20 10:04 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

every living thing does not have it. but you know, we could drop the word conscious and just use the term mind, and bacteria do not have mind. also trees do not have mind. they are not subject to mental disorder or mental confusion or mental delight.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26982809 - 10/13/20 06:25 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

do you think your mind extends beyond your perceptions?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26982934 - 10/13/20 08:29 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

it collapses into perceptions from chaotic continua.
mostly it is immensely more active than just perception, but the perceptions are the firmer footholds in the seething mass of reality.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26983363 - 10/13/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

do fractals drive the mind, or does the mind drive the fractals?

both?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26983442 - 10/13/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

the mind is all about highlighting changes by cancelling the unchanging background signals. In this way we easily find and follow new objects as they appear and can follow central important ideas as in a conversation, for instance.

if mind cannot do a figure ground separation then mind will work with the overall totality and let the strongest association prevail in the next cycle and no object optimization will be effective.

a rhythmic progression such as a fractal can command interest as an object or central idea, but basically anything left over after the background noise is quashed slides into the center of our attention (i.e. the changes).

when I meditate, I often have to restart, as my central focus gets cancelled out naturally as if it were an unchanging background signal - i.e. a persisting central idea over time becomes background noise.

Note the same effect occurs when you close your eyes after looking at a high contrast image, then the image appears in reverse in your mind... that mental reverse image is the cancellation action in progress, and is part of some endless search for anything new which may not be background.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26984439 - 10/14/20 02:48 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

A variety of traits come in spectrums.

Maybe we don't use the word consciousness liberally enough. Before this I've always thought all living things are conscious including trees as they respond to environmentos stimuli.

If we want to have clarity on what consciousness is then we have to conform to a single definition, and that bit is tough.

Even if we keep consciousness in the HUMAN ONLY domain, we can put on top of that meta-consciousness as the refined senses.

There might not seem a definite point in this post, but it's always been a problem when no one knows what what is or what they're talking about.

Compounded confusion from illusory definitions of confounded words :mad2:


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #26987475 - 10/15/20 06:04 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I find if I just focus on what I'm thinking, I'm thinking in a way that is kind of subconscious, ie. like a dream manifests.


--------------------
LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life'

Your life, your call.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #26987839 - 10/16/20 01:01 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Whatever mechanisms of metacognitionĀ are at play, we find a path to success, sometimes with bumps along the way, most times, if not always.

For me, those bumps seem major, but in hindsight they're usually not, and far forgotten quickly by others than I.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly] * 1
    #26989289 - 10/16/20 10:59 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
but it's always been a problem when no one knows what what is or what they're talking about.

Compounded confusion from illusory definitions of confounded words :mad2:




Sudly it seems you want certainty about something (consciousness & reality) that no one has any certainty about. No wonder it feels frustrating! Here's one of the smartest men on the planet (he just got a nobel prize) discussing the issue. Perhaps you will enjoy his sharing on the subject?



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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26991149 - 10/18/20 08:41 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Consciousness creates universes and neurons. Consciousness is the energy of being alive. What entails being alive includes photons that need to be created in our sun. Those are also you, and without them your experience is meaningless.

For most humans consciousness is the mistaken feeling that feelings happen behind your eyes and between your ears.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26991294 - 10/18/20 10:59 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Consciousness creates universes and neurons. Consciousness is the energy of being alive. What entails being alive includes photons that need to be created in our sun. Those are also you, and without them your experience is meaningless.

For most humans consciousness is the mistaken feeling that feelings happen behind your eyes and between your ears.



I don't think we can generalize what most think this word means as we are being inconsistent in its usage.

however you may have this backwards, thinking that there is a creator (consciousness) that makes neurons, rather than following the trail that neurons do make towards consciousness that is, if you accept the "meaning of consciousness" to be: awareness (1) mixed with memory formation (2) and recollection (3) (aka perception) as I do.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26991301 - 10/18/20 11:02 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Consciousness is the creater and observer. You had to do a lot of work before you were born to be born in the first place. Just like you produce fingernails "subconsciously" you also make black holes in some far corner of the cosmos


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26991410 - 10/18/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Edit:  no posting while bubbling


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (10/18/20 12:29 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26991440 - 10/18/20 12:42 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Consciousness is the creater and observer. You had to do a lot of work before you were born to be born in the first place. Just like you produce fingernails "subconsciously" you also make black holes in some far corner of the cosmos



Before I was born, I was not me, and I did not work.
my fingernails are produced by specialized skin cells.
I began as a specific goo drop and slowly came to know myself, without having anyone else feed me theories.

Maybe you think that the subconscious is subcutaneous nail producing tissue. That would make a lot of sense to the American Association of  Cuticles.


--------------------
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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26991465 - 10/18/20 12:55 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

You're enshrined in a world of things. Sperate things. That's only useful for communication not philosophy


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26991503 - 10/18/20 01:28 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Enshrined?
just because someone agrees or disagrees with something I have written or said?
well halleluiah!

Which 'separate' (note the spelling) things enshrine me?

[you are not a real bodhisattva are you?]


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26992012 - 10/18/20 08:50 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:laugh::smile:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26997138 - 10/21/20 10:57 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
To the discussion about "when a baby develops consciousness"

in 2013 a science reporter declared that (flawed) evidence pointed to 5 months old as the age when a baby has consciousness.

This is now being rolled back, all the way back to a reasonable definition of consciousness as a thing separate from awareness.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/consciousness-goes-deeper-than-you-think


https://ejop.psychopen.eu/index.php/ejop/article/view/1388/pdfĀ ;

Towards the end he reveals that there is no sub-consciousness - I am no longer alone in this, although he blurs the clarity of it by extrapolating that since consciousness is so pervasive, it is everywhere.

I think that is because he is disconnecting memory from the question "what does it feel like?"
because if there is no memory - it never feels LIKE anything.





Someone else is in agreement about an error. The UNconscious is the psychic matrix from which consciousness emerges, and from ego-consciousness which culminates in reason there are trans-rational conditions that extend beyond the rational but which include prior states. This is the meaning of transcendence. It does not pertain merely to supramundane states. Ken Wilber's works elaborate this theme of transcendence. The term subconscious is best reserved for liminal awareness between consciousness and the more shallow levels of the unconscious. The subconscious is demonstrated in the perception of subliminal images for example and with suggestion as simple as yawning after one sees another person yawn. I've even written the word yawn or yawn now and saw 2/3 of a classroom of kids respond by yawning. The so-called subconscious is operqting during the fleeting perception of micro-expressions on people's faces.

There are also intrauterine memories and memories of the birth trauma to be considered. I point to the work of Otto Rank and more recently to Stanislav Grof's work with psychedelically revivified intrauterine memories. It may take 6 months for ego-consciousness to develop in a neonate but that first expression of self-consciousness is an embodied ego. The child realizes there is an experiential difference between biting a blanket or toy and biting one's thumb for example.  Consciousness is a term that covers the whole continuum from Collective Unconscious though degrees of personal unconsciousness in Delta-wave sleep through Theta-wave states with reveries and dreams and lucid dreams to full waking consciousness and beyond.

I relived my biological birth on a very high insufflated dose of LSD just days before my 20th birthday. But when I was in early single-digit ages, vomiting was accompanied by a very primal fear. It is my contention that the contractions of the abdominal muscles and the sensation of hot liquid being expelled from the stomach elicited birth trauma memories in which hot amniotic fluid is likewise being forced up the throat and out the mouth during the delivery process. I have recalled incidents that took place before my 30th month of life, some probably within the first 18 months that were corroborated by one or both of my parents. I can recall my first nightmares that occurred by my 30th month of life and one some time before 30 months. For a long time developmentalists denied complex memories in young children and neonates supposedly because of incomplete myelination of the nervous system but I consider this to be yet another error to have been surpassed. Cognitive development occurs gradually, just read Jean Piaget's work fo explication.


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γνῶθι ĻƒĪ±į½Ļ„ĻŒĪ½ - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26997295 - 10/22/20 04:18 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
ok maybe some people need subconscious, and a few need god too, maybe that's why we have a pope.




UGK always said there was no subconscious too. Seems to me though that there are definitely things I'm not aware enough to realise about my psyche. I've had parts of my life where these things have suddenly been "released" often with disastrous effects. Between that and dreams it's not hard to see where people might get the idea of a subconscious even if it doesn't present as a literally seperate part of consciousness (which is akin to believing in fairy tales by my analysis).

If I had to define it I would define it in something like this clumsy manner "that which we are not currently aware of in the present moment and which some people have a greater ability to become aware of in future moments which capacity for may then be a precedent for behaviour and thought."


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26997375 - 10/22/20 06:06 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

sorry @Grapefruit, I have lost the thread who is UGK (I get Underground Kings from search)

@MarkosTheGnostic, your path has been one of tremendous writhing effort and repackaging your life from Jewish boy to Christian man to New Age Functional and Educational pillar of the community.

You have managed miraculously turning the ephemeral into solid footing temporarily as you progressed magically one psychedelic step at a time.

I can only formulate your path using poetry patience and awe.

facts are immaterial in this story and it need not be any other way.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26999402 - 10/23/20 09:55 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

UG Krishnamurti. I have written about him frequently in the forums and I am surprised that you haven't looked into him much, you being buddhist(?) as to my way of thinking out of the many claimants he is the only one in roughly a thousand years to have attained nirvana.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26999496 - 10/23/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I used to be head over heals about buddhism, after  my first book about  buddhist meditation when I was 14. I have not found it again, but I do dream of it, lovely little brown hard bound volume in a 14 year old's exploratory hands, describing the jhanas and the wheel of life.

I met many buddhists, along the way, and some likely bodhisattvas, rinpoches, and bhikkhus, but what sticks for me is the method not the person or the results.

Some buddhist terms may not even be relevant, such as nibbana, or nirvana. You may aim in the goal type direction, but the direction is actually your own path. so I prefer the term tathagatho, the one who has walked this way with awareness.

Meeting people with the tathagatho vibe going is wonderful. how they move seems totally normal but how they avoid calamity while seeming normal is sublime.

so, no, I am sorry to have not bathed in the light of UG Krishnamurti, but if he is for real and you can be nearby, it will be a learning experience or a delight or both.



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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26999631 - 10/23/20 12:19 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Your knowledge on the buddhist field is astounding.

I like it.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27000018 - 10/23/20 04:15 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Well yeah that all makes sense, but it doesn't even pique your interest huh? Perhaps it would only be a contamination.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: Grapefruit]
    #27000045 - 10/23/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Krishnamurti was definitely a very special fellow.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #27000775 - 10/24/20 03:30 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

hehe

good to avoid calamity

one could also not wish harm upon others

then one can't do something wrong


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27000778 - 10/24/20 03:38 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

one of the most wonderful subjects I know is how to live one's life

and how close one is to the ideal

and how one moves closer to it

this and meditation where the benefits pile up over the years (as they say) are extremely similar

what they mean (what they mean to it) are extremely similar

because when something is good it is like living one's life more ideally

like doing more ideally


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: Ferdinando]
    #27000835 - 10/24/20 06:15 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

in which case ideal is an living idea in mind and is part of awareness and appreciation rather than a fixed idea of what is good.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27001205 - 10/24/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

most humans are not aware enough on a conscious level to know that their subconscious even exists!


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27001300 - 10/24/20 01:53 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

what does subconscious mean to you?


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines] * 4
    #27001380 - 10/24/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

conscious awareness only processes a lesser portion of the stimulus that it captures -

the stimulus that is captured, but not processed by the conscious, is the subconscious.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27001440 - 10/24/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

That is a fantastic definition.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27001455 - 10/24/20 03:29 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
conscious awareness only processes a lesser portion of the stimulus that it captures -

the stimulus that is captured, but not processed by the conscious, is the subconscious.




although I think that the part that is conscious is the captured stimulus combined with all the strong associations. I think that habits of mental posturing and defensiveness make it appear that there is a separate place for "less important" things to be considered.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27001962 - 10/24/20 10:47 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

The assertion that there is no unconscious is just a false assertion. Like a flat earther's assertion it remains false despite apparent evidence which is based on superficial sensory experience, but in this instance it is a facile understanding of the psyche instead of a sensory deception. Perhaps a better understanding of the term unconscious would be helpful, like after reading Henri Ellenberger's The Discovery of the Unconscious. On the other hand If the assertions of a licensed and board certified fellow with over 31 years of experience in clinical hypnotherapy does not serve to alter a mere opinion, there is little point in thinking that the reading of a comprehensive phenomenological study of the subject will have any instructive efficacy. :lol: Forget the advanced seminars and years of personal analysis of my own unconscious by Zurich-trained analysts. It's only my avowed expertise here and I'm not going to disclose personal info nor out Shroomerites I've seen professionally.

The whole thing begs the question of why anyone would even bother to try to clarify anything on The Shroomery in the first place. Well, misinformation is a pet peeve of Vajra personalities which strive for clarity plus I've spent a lot of time on these forums and I like to leave someplace I've been visiting in better shape than when I first arrived. Promulgators of misinformation may not make changes in their errors but hopefully my small contributions can minimize fallout from ill-affecting other readers as apparently too many Shroomerites have already received mishandling by mental health practitioners. Sometimes it does behoove one to trust.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #27002263 - 10/25/20 06:37 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

sorry to upset you so much, but I agree that you have been an authority and a healer in the world where subconscious and unconscious are actual things rather than habituation and attitude.

our world is both stagnating and changing torrentially.
both at the same time.
if you only look at part of it as culture, then the other is considered subculture.
the habit for thousands of years is exclusionary. we are the good people and they are the strangers.

a more apt term for sensory subconscious is subliminality. this is the case where only some senses are considered (like vision while reading) and others 'ignored' like proprioception, which may be referred to as subliminal sensation.
less worthy of attention.

peripheral things, i.e. non central sensations, however, become part of memory as does the concentration effort, etc.
those peripheral things can be used to remember the incident, to link the memory with others similar, and to help solve problems after they are recalled.

they are not recalled from a different memory than all conscious memories, and they are not experienced by a different set of structures, they are just not central focus during the experiences.

generally speaking, people are quite ready to grasp at the 1/10th approach to hw we use our brain and show that the other 9/10ths is the subconscious, because that matches our sleep walking approach to life, and that is an approach of minimal awareness.

I assure you there is no line between what is clear and what is foggy, no line between conscious and subconscious in all these cases where attributions are made, just more central and more peripheral.

we have evolved to have foveas in our eyes, areas of higher sensitivity to detail dead center of each retina.  Vision is made up of all the visual input, both sharp and blurry.

at best this is the unconscious, that which is not clear, but it is all part of consciousness sliding through time on our individual life paths.

do not take it as a personal attack, I would still respect you if you were the pope or the dalai lama or Mark the Gnostic.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27002538 - 10/25/20 10:50 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

way way down the line there comes

an opportunity for making everything on the earth better

when you've living with maximal awareness this happens

it is a wonderful moment

you understand someone as it is and you understand it truthfully

and the wish and practice and doing of making everything on the earth better happens

at least you try to

the hit is there like a badminton hit

you may not hit inside of the court or make everything on the earth better

but it is a step in the right direction

after that you work on fields

individual fields

of people lives

and make small positive change

in the range of a millionparts of a gram of tobacco less in 20 years

the the making everything on the earth better comes together with making a field in someone's life better

and it goes from there

it snowballs

like the buddist idea of the wheel of helping others

maybe it is the same thig


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27003936 - 10/26/20 01:41 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Please do not presume. You have not upset me and I cannot see how my response would even suggest that. :shrug: There is permeability between 'layers,' of awareness reminiscent of one of those images of pours of multi-layered liquors of varying densities where blending occurs. What IS upsetting is having to turn away people from my hypnotherapy practice after they have sought such assistance, sometimes at the behest of their non-hypnotic therapist. There re a lot of practitioners in my area and many of them are spurious and less than ethical from what I've learned from individuals who saw them before seeing me. it is upsetting to turn trusting individuals  away out of fear of me and my wife contracting COVID-19. A friend of our's not far from us was just diagnosed last week. I work from home, my wife and I, both in our 60s are in a COVID-19 hotspot being in Miami. I cannot talk for 90+ minutes in a N95 mask and I need to read the micro-expressions on my subject's face so they cannot be masked. So, doing triage: OUR continued physical well-being is taking precedence over psychological-emotional health of others. I'm not gonna be either mercenary or a martyr, nor will I put my wife at risk. It feels selfish, but there it is. Want to see unconscious defense-mechanisms in action? Just observe the Trumpanzees denial of a clear and present danger congregating at their rallies.



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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #27004030 - 10/26/20 05:33 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

why are defense mechanisms unconscious? are they more unconscious than other defense mechanisms? is anything unconscious about them as opposed to merely reflex? is anything in the mind not reflex? is reflex other than association/response? is anything in mind not associative other than sensation?

this is where I am at.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27004053 - 10/26/20 06:09 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Aren't defence mechanisms about perceived threats?

And if so, then where do perceived threats lay within this web?


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #27004169 - 10/26/20 08:39 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I look at perception as basic association, and that is a function of the mind and memory, and when mind and memory are working you have consciousness.
a perceived threat will link to FOF responses unless tranquility or tranquilizers prevail.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27004509 - 10/26/20 11:55 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

consciousness is not thought, consciousness is awareness.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27004548 - 10/26/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

how is awareness different from thought?


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27005002 - 10/26/20 04:41 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

the primary difference is, awareness is formulated prior to cognition.

awareness is not embodied by words.

awareness has more to do with the body than with the mind.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #27005067 - 10/26/20 05:14 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
.... I'm not gonna be either mercenary or a martyr, nor will I put my wife at risk. It feels selfish, but there it is. ....




So either do hypnosis via the internet-- skype or zoom or something similar
or
just do talk therapy with masks
or
retire 'early' (& write a book or whatever)

or mix it up depending on the client

not too many choices here


Edited by laughingdog (10/26/20 05:15 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27005338 - 10/26/20 08:30 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Online hypnosis? I'll take 12!

The reason it don't happen is the same reason religious healers don't work in hospitals and psychics don't win lotteries.

Because the leprechaun keeps moving his gold :mad2:


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27005394 - 10/26/20 08:58 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
the primary difference is, awareness is formulated prior to cognition.

awareness is not embodied by words.

awareness has more to do with the body than with the mind.



thanks
will think on it


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27005614 - 10/27/20 01:39 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Can you be aware of stuff if you close your eyes?

Or at least, how is awareness different when you close your eyes?


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #27005777 - 10/27/20 06:48 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

as promised, here are my thoughts on your statements which are a great basic consideration but I think there is more to it (basically the importance of contact, openness, and change).

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
the primary difference is, awareness is formulated prior to cognition.

awareness is not embodied by words.

awareness has more to do with the body than with the mind.




1. awareness is formulated prior to cognition - not really, however, being present and aware in any circumstance relies on not being swamped by ideas that are out of synch with what is happening.
Not knowing where you are but being aware that you are there is possible if you are coming aware from being lost, or unconscious, otherwise, knowing where you are is part of awareness.

I know why you say this, as the freshness of sensation and the presence in the body are good indicators that your awareness is peaking versus your distractedness or dreaminess.

2. awareness is not embodied by words. - this is a general misconception. awareness is embodied by mental content. and that content can be verbal, sensory, flow or movement, even elaborate concepts, however awareness can also be dissipated in or swamped by such thought forms (as in obsession eg.) - awareness has more of a totality connection rather than a specific immersion. i.e. you can be aware of thought, words, sensations, feelings, movements or concentration, in passing, but awareness is more in the open quality of context and totality  than in the closed domain of a few words or ideas.

3. awareness has more to do with the body than with the mind - here also, I disagree, as awareness is 100% mind, however you are pointing at a great opportunity, which is to use the multichannel nature of one's body to achieve awareness - i.e. the body scan, the continua of sensations from body and posture, all along with other maters of concern and happenstance.  Again it is not just internal attention (mind or mind/body) but also external attention and a free flowing shift of mental reflection as local events (where is the body, what is the body doing) shift and stay the same.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #27005810 - 10/27/20 07:20 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

humans tend to trust information conveyed by the eyes above the data provided by other senses.  vision is a physiological process to direct attention, and when the eyes are open, estimates are that the eyes use 30-50% of brain processing power.  paying attention to something with the eyes is akin to a thought process in that it makes the brain's perceptive processes study the object of attention. 

but does perceptual organization really correspond with the nature of reality itself?  studies with various kinds of distortion goggles show that the brain can easily adapt to the new organizing information!  any visual signal is bound to be affected by how its received by the viewer’s sensory system.

when the eyes are closed, the brain is freed from the need to organize visual data to correspond with reality.  when the eyes are no longer thinking, data can be assimilated that allows for greater communication across the senses.  i would say i have much more awareness when my eyes are closed, because i can see with my eyes closed!  i sustained a traumatic brain injury in 2010 that caused the loss of part of my vision, so i am used to not being able to rely on my eyes to "see" the world.

see blindsight -
Quote:

Blindsight challenges the common belief that perceptions must enter consciousness to affect our behavior; showing that our behavior can be guided by sensory information of which we have no conscious awareness.




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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27005858 - 10/27/20 08:06 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
...
see blindsight -
Quote:

Blindsight challenges the common belief that perceptions must enter consciousness to affect our behavior; showing that our behavior can be guided by sensory information of which we have no conscious awareness.







in this, the language is stumbling over it's own words:
"our behavior can be guided by sensory information of which we have no conscious awareness"

1) the study included afflicted individuals for whom visual signals enter the brain but do not go to the visual cortex as per usual - this is not is not exactly "we", but the study's insights can be applied to "us" once distilled clearly and put into concise language. We do need to think about what has happened to "them" in this test case, and then apply it to "us".

2) "conscious awareness" is a brutal deformation of meaning, i.e. either there is awareness or there is not, adding the term conscious does not clarify awareness unless it imparts the term linguistic (aka discursive thought using words), as in linguistic awareness, or descriptive awareness in familiar words.
leaving the term conscious here indirectly perverts the meaning of conscious towards anything familiar enough to be describable in language.

My guess is that the authors of the study believe that consciousness is a verbal presence, and that is a horrifically reductive attitude but common in this branch of scientific study.

Importantly, this underscores that blindsight exists. Some signals are definitely received and associated with existing proprioception and movement (referred to as processing), even though this 'sense' is not among our usual FIVE SENSES, it is a real channel of visual input and people experience it, and the people tested were using it but not particularly "NOTICING" that they were using it by using any words in our current language.

Unless specific experiences were shared, I think these people will continue to not observe the ability but just use it, without developing language for this activity/sensory experience.

In this case,  they are certainly conscious of it but certainly not aware of all that they are conscious of. As living entities they use blindsight just the same as they use hearing. Most of what we hear, we are not aware of even though we are conscious of it and responsive to it. The best term we have for this is subliminal, and that is what we are aware of but generally do not pay attention to.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27007741 - 10/28/20 07:18 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

What I don't get is how the autonomous system would fit into the whole hypothesis. The autonomous system isn't generally controlled through conscious effort. (however with some practices it can be brought forth by conscious effort)

To me that seems like evidence that there is a subconscious that can be accessed through the conscious.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27007912 - 10/28/20 09:04 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
What I don't get is how the autonomous system would fit into the whole hypothesis. The autonomous system isn't generally controlled through conscious effort. (however with some practices it can be brought forth by conscious effort)



the autonomous system is loosely coupled to the brain and consciousness.
indistinct input and very little direct output from the brain.
we know more about what the autonomic system is doing from our skin and skeletal muscular afferent and efferent systems. It is a carry forward in evolution, and a good one. Most likely it is serviced to some degree by the cerebellar timing circuits, and the pituitary interactions with endocrine activity. Otherwise it is not subject to sensory and associative homeostasis (aka consciousness).

Quote:

teknix said:
To me that seems like evidence that there is a subconscious that can be accessed through the conscious.




not evidence, but a good exploratory question.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27008058 - 10/28/20 10:28 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

the autonomous system is loosely coupled to the brain and consciousness.
indistinct input and very little direct output from the brain.
we know more about what the autonomic system is doing from our skin and skeletal muscular afferent and efferent systems. It is a carry forward in evolution, and a good one. Most likely it is serviced to some degree by the cerebellar timing circuits, and the pituitary interactions with endocrine activity. Otherwise it is not subject to sensory and associative homeostasis (aka consciousness).





Loosely coupled? Down playing the significance doesn't really make it less significant.

If consciousness is the extent of awareness to perceive and sense the environment, then the subconscious would be that part of the environment that is not immediately perceivable but known to exist. IE; Below the conscious.

The mechanisms of the body work with our senses in the forefront of awareness perception, the underlying mechanisms are still functioning even if they aren't perceptible. The mechanism that continue to work outside the immediate perception of awareness is called what iyo?

The known but not immediately perceivable subconscious can be accessed by the conscious.

You need to take examples like Wim Hof seriously when considering the full extent of our awareness compared to what is perceptible to an average person. Renaming the areas we can access through practice and expansion of awareness to something else doesn't take away the fact that it is done by many every day.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27008067 - 10/28/20 10:33 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

what do you guys suppose could be the purpose of awareness?


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27008075 - 10/28/20 10:35 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

collecting memories :smile:


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27008083 - 10/28/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
What I don't get is how the autonomous system would fit into the whole hypothesis. The autonomous system isn't generally controlled through conscious effort. (however with some practices it can be brought forth by conscious effort)

To me that seems like evidence that there is a subconscious that can be accessed through the conscious.




the body is probably much more capable than the conscious mind in conducting the affairs of the individual. case in point, an external stimulus grabs your attention, it is not your consciousness that release the appropriate hormones of adrenalin but an automated bodily process.

this automated process in more in tune with purpose then anything else.

the conscious often interferes with purpose!


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod] * 2
    #27008178 - 10/28/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

If we take it to Occam's Razor;

"Expansion of awareness is bringing the subconscious into the conscious."


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27008230 - 10/28/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I agree. I think we have our normal awareness, and when the parts of the brain-mind that have been occluded from the awareness join with that awareness, we have expanded consciousness. The mystical traditions and the psychedelic experience of course try to facilitate this.

But I sympathize with rgv's point a bit, because when we become aware of these processes, we find that they were occurring the whole time, with a subtle consciousness of their own. So there is no rigid line between conscious and subconscious, if we are inclined to separate them for the sake of convenience.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27008332 - 10/28/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
...
"Expansion of awareness is bringing the subconscious into the conscious."



this I think helps my case because it reveals that the more we are attentive to, the more we see of the totality of mind, and this includes central matters as well as fragments of sensation, and more peripheral ones, which are usually glossed over.

it is probably the glossing that suggests an interface, below and above the glossing over.

but this is also an illusion, since the degree of glossing is variable, (there is no precise indication that something is below or above what is normally glossed over for all people, or even for one person all the time - the glossing can be close to the central attention issues, or much further out (i.e. with more comprehensive awareness), such that those with great awareness seem to miss nothing, and those with low awareness live life under gloss, basically in the periphery of themselves.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27008385 - 10/28/20 01:21 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Well, I don't know that it helps your argument. Perhaps it does, but for the exercise of the razor, you would have to describe the process of an expanding awareness more simply than the terminology we currently use which is pretty accurate.

Can you explain this:

"Expansion of awareness is bringing the subconscious into the conscious."

More simply without using the word subconscious and still retain the meaning?


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27008509 - 10/28/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I agree. I think we have our normal awareness, and when the parts of the brain-mind that have been occluded from the awareness join with that awareness, we have expanded consciousness. The mystical traditions and the psychedelic experience of course try to facilitate this.

But I sympathize with rgv's point a bit, because when we become aware of these processes, we find that they were occurring the whole time, with a subtle consciousness of their own. So there is no rigid line between conscious and subconscious, if we are inclined to separate them for the sake of convenience.




Subconscious still seems like a good descriptor, because what is currently active in conscious is never all of the normally inactive subconscious at the same time. Could you imagine being aware of literally every working organ, and all your memories, as well as all your senses at the same moment in time? That would take quite an awareness. Even if you did become aware of all the knowns, there may still be unknowns hiding in the subconscious awaiting to be discovered, like controlling adrenaline, or oxytocin, or the inner fire of the celiac plexus, or even make some tcells with your thyroid.

Even when you know all of these, they still fade in and out of awareness and it takes a concerted effort to bring them into concious for as long as you can hold it into the focal point of awareness.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27008551 - 10/28/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
...
Can you explain this:

"Expansion of awareness is bringing the subconscious into the conscious."

More simply without using the word subconscious and still retain the meaning?




Expansion of awareness brings peripheral mental activity into everyday consciousness.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27008630 - 10/28/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
...
Even when you know all of these, they still fade in and out of awareness and it takes a concerted effort to bring them into concious for as long as you can hold it into the focal point of awareness.




I would like to reference a common phenomenon that may help illustrate what and why this happens.

Note the afterimage phenomenon, wherein if you look at an image for 20 seconds or so, and then close your eyes, you can see the same image in reversed colors.

This uncanny trick, if you did it on a computer (i.e. mix the flipped pixels with the original values), would provide a flat neutral gray image with tiny bits of sparkle in the 2-d area where movement occurred since the last positive frame was flipped to negative colors.

for vision we are constantly neutralizing the unchanging field (making an afterimage to cancel the field) so that where any changes are happening we become alerted to the event, and make that central (for eyes that means look at it directly and see it using the fovea or higher resolution part of the eye).

Vision allows us to see this neurophysiological process (inversion and cancelling of unchanging parts of the sensory/mental field) but it also suggests that this simple method that evolved to enable finding moving prey or moving predators in an unchanging field also works as we manage our daily life.

I believe that part of the brain (frontal cortex) is watching for sparkle and copying the sparkle field area to the central awareness staging area (pre-frontal cortex), from any sensory/memory cortical area that has relative sparkle/change in it, and it takes a profound effort to yoke this center stage to your will, or if you prefer to your practice of concentration, because distraction is reflex, and practice is resumption of focus in the midst of cognitive sparkles or distractions.

This neutralizing and normalizing brain reflex is also part of what keeps things subliminal.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27009162 - 10/28/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

teknix said:
...
Can you explain this:

"Expansion of awareness is bringing the subconscious into the conscious."

More simply without using the word subconscious and still retain the meaning?




Expansion of awareness brings peripheral mental activity into everyday consciousness.




Your description might be simpler, if you take into account the need to define subconscious in the given text, where-as your description doesn't need much more elaboration. I kinda like it, but just by being familiarized with the concept of the subconscious, pushes my bias towards those explanations when in consideration.

Seems arbitrary to try to fix what aint broke :P

It's simpler for me to side with that which I'm already familiar with, if all else is equal. If there is a profound realization (and/or defining of) the concept of conscious without the subconscious, that I'm missing, well, I'm missing it.


Edited by teknix (10/28/20 08:18 PM)


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27009200 - 10/28/20 08:24 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I guess that's why the established paradigms hold so much sway, familiarity breeds comfort.

Then again, the subconscious helps to eloquently describe the extent and potential of the conscious.


Edited by teknix (10/28/20 09:10 PM)


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27009579 - 10/29/20 02:36 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

The unconscious is what enables one to ride a bicycle without knowing what muscles are being used, -  what allows one to walk, to talk, it facilitates 90% of our behavior. One does not want this aspect of the unconscious to be conscious. This is not what psychedelics or enlightenment are about, no one wants to be fully aware, of all deep bodily processes being run and organized by the body / mind, besides the complexity makes such a notion impossible.
At another level dreaming occurs, and any meanings they may have.
With hypnosis other aspects of the unconscious mind may be explored.

Enlightenment is also frequently misunderstood. It does not make one one bit more intelligent, although lightening strikes on humans very rarely have given those they have not killed musical and mathematical talents.
Enlightenment also does not generally make one creative in a particularly noticeable way, or ensure a long healthy life.

A few Enlightenment experiences do not make one a perfectly moral person either.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Buddhist+scandals&t=h_&ia=web&iai=r1-2&page=1&adx=prdsdc&sexp=%7B%22relsexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22prodexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22prdsdexp%22%3A%22c%22%2C%22biaexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22direxp%22%3A%22b%22%7D

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Spiritual+%26+religious++scandals&t=h_&ia=web

Enlightenment relates to a few rather specific changes in awareness,
that relate to perception of self, & perception of interdependence and impermanence, and an overall equanimity as opposed to stress and anxiety. It usually takes years of continued practice to clear out  much residual garbage from the psyche.

Rockclimbing will also alter one's awareness. And it does this not by exploring the unconscious, or making it conscious, but by the dropping of distractions and returning fully to the present.

Likewise when youth experiences sex and love, it seems to change their whole world,
but the divorce rate and mental health statistics and child abuse statistics and family dysfunction statistics tell a very different story.

It seems almost nothing is what its 'cracked up to be'.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27009639 - 10/29/20 04:40 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

It seems RGV will use linguistics to argue subconscious isn't a thing and that will always be true depending on your perspective. We label things out of convenience, and to ease communication between individuals. We generally agree on the meanings of things to accomplish this.

One persons perspective the subconscious could be the little devil and angel on the shoulder
Another could see it as your heartbeat or liver enzymes
And further someone could view subconscious as how you make the sun rise every day or how you made a "big bang"
And of course someone could share RGV's viewpoint that there is no subconscious

So the real argument is where to agree or where to agree to disagree about what each individual in this thread feels like they define subconscious

Everyone's opinion is a real feeling based on their perspective. Subconscious is an abstract idea so everyone can be correct in that regard. Their experiences are true


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27009684 - 10/29/20 05:59 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

thanks for this summary, however, I have a reason to simplify the language:
if you understand my explanations, then you are not carrying mysterious suspicions forward in your thoughts and speech.
comments about the mind can be simpler, can be understandable and clear comments can be of huge value during a psychedelic trip.
moreover i present them here as they are essentially consistent psychedelic induced insights.

@laughingdog:
walking is not managed by a subconscious, it is a physical routine that has been learned by practice becoming a reflexive habit. It is something that can be done while talking or eating or carrying bags etc. It is managed by many different tissues in the brain, but it is not part of sleeping or being unconscious, and it is not less than or underneath anything else that the person may be involved with.

Reflexive habits are consciously accessed and monitored, but do not need to be micromanaged, because the component rhythms and motions fit easily and adjust easily to a path and to obstacles that may show up in an intended route.

Putting that into the same nebulous bag as a person's motivations, dreams, fears, likes etc. just makes everything clouded, and it seems absurd - no?.

that should be a clear reason to stop people from making what they say too hard for other people to understand. i.e. be specific and do not talk down. Be educative, share.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27009690 - 10/29/20 06:04 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

teknix said:
...
Can you explain this:

"Expansion of awareness is bringing the subconscious into the conscious."

More simply without using the word subconscious and still retain the meaning?




Expansion of awareness brings peripheral mental activity into everyday consciousness.




Your description might be simpler, if you take into account the need to define subconscious in the given text, where-as your description doesn't need much more elaboration. I kinda like it, but just by being familiarized with the concept of the subconscious, pushes my bias towards those explanations when in consideration.

Seems arbitrary to try to fix what aint broke :P

It's simpler for me to side with that which I'm already familiar with, if all else is equal. If there is a profound realization (and/or defining of) the concept of conscious without the subconscious, that I'm missing, well, I'm missing it.




well if you can understand the term and explain it (not in terms of itself) then as long as you say what you mean and mean what you say, there should be no problem.

in reality central and peripheral associations in consciousness lead to clarity of understanding of mind and mental contents.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27010253 - 10/29/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I like that your explanation does point towards the expansion of consciousness in a different way, it could be of utility to people that want to disassociate any sort of mysticism with an expanding conscious.

That's why there are so many different teachings (and practices) about the topic of expanding awareness, different ways of describing the same thing :smile:

Your perspective offers a more materialistic view that might provide skeptics something more digestible if they are on a journey to expand consciousness, being that A lot of current teachings and methodologies are encrusted in mysticism.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27010263 - 10/29/20 12:17 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
It seems RGV will use linguistics to argue subconscious isn't a thing and that will always be true depending on your perspective. We label things out of convenience, and to ease communication between individuals. We generally agree on the meanings of things to accomplish this.

One persons perspective the subconscious could be the little devil and angel on the shoulder
Another could see it as your heartbeat or liver enzymes
And further someone could view subconscious as how you make the sun rise every day or how you made a "big bang"
And of course someone could share RGV's viewpoint that there is no subconscious

So the real argument is where to agree or where to agree to disagree about what each individual in this thread feels like they define subconscious

Everyone's opinion is a real feeling based on their perspective. Subconscious is an abstract idea so everyone can be correct in that regard. Their experiences are true





Yeah, that is definitely true, when dealing with the subjective nature of experience, many fingers are used to point at the same thing in a different way. From Zen, to Mahayana to Theravada.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27010275 - 10/29/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Red, When you accessed the 4th and 5th dimensions, do you think you were already there and just became conscious of it?


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27010577 - 10/29/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Red, When you accessed the 4th and 5th dimensions, do you think you were already there and just became conscious of it?



these are perceptions I had and which I expected to some extent, probably from having had them before.

my sensations of the 3rd dimension were sustained (faded less quickly) providing a space I could move in that included exits from the moment into the previous moments which had stacked up in the same space.
ERGO 4D experiencing while stoned.

the odd thing about it was a feeling of bursting perpendicular to what is, revealing the stacked frame contents, alongside the current frame of experiencing in the now.

the 5th is more vague to describe except to say that the relationship of 90 degrees was applied to all that was being perceived in 4, and this opened into pure geometry using 4d colors and fragments - not very clear. but that is all.

I do not think this is a place - it is an experience that can be had in any place where you stack up moments in mind - it is very not flat.  Separate from that, I have been very very flat on salvia, and I think that was from being 4d and 5d and looking at 3d and calling it flat.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27010618 - 10/29/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Well, wherever you are is a place and time.

I didn't know if it was a trip you had or if it was an exploration of awareness without external substances/stimuli?


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27010625 - 10/29/20 03:16 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

both of course


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27010670 - 10/29/20 03:39 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

ordered  Edward F. Edinger's book :thumbup::thumbup: Edinger was associated with the C.G. Jung Center in NYC and he was a brilliant expositor of C.G. Jung's theories as applied to religion. In the case of Ego and Archetype: Individuation and the Religious Function of the Psyche Dr. Edinger applies the Jungian understanding of ego versus Self to some of the major mythic images in the Book of Genesis. The earlier publications included wonderful color plates as well as the B&W pics to help illustrate such notions of the Garden of Eden as a sort of mandalic vessel, a 'Great Round' or maternal archetype, womblike, which is the unconscious matrix of the psyche from which ego-consciousness (self-conscious awareness) emerges.

Not to over-burden, but a Great follow-up book is Erich Neumann's The Great Mother: An Analysis of the Archetype. It would flesh out some of Edinger's ideas on the primordial psychic matrix depicted mythically in biblical notions as well as his own Jungian concepts. I have often referred back to a diagram of the Great Mother from Neumann's book to show me where some of the women in my life probably connect to this multifaceted archetype.  https://www.amazon.com/Great-Mother-Analysis-Archetype-Neumann/dp/0691166072




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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #27011030 - 10/29/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Marcos, these are very dedicated works, resolving how man is made in God's (the archetypes) image. I especially adore how the tarot works with (mostly the same) archetypes achieving a well rounded approach to associated classes of symbols and how they relate in the tarot scheme; but I do not see that much of the work holds water beyond being a good story. One that carries forward whatever religious fetish you wish to discover.

You could say Jung's is panspiritual work, sort of pleasing everybody much of the time.

I like his work for that.

My ego is that annoying part of me which keeps defending itself even when not attacked, and it keeps going into the kitchen and staring at the fridge whether I feel like it or not, it denies looking at women that way, and lies about it. It is an interesting object lesson in conditioning  (like associate 2 things repetitively, and they stick together as one memory reflex).

My ego is not below a super ego while suspended over top of an id (aka subconscious) and even with all the archetypical promotion, (I love the stories,) no part of my mind is collective (unconscious), it's acquisitive, and trying to find something interesting, while trying to stay in tune with what's happening around me, and sometimes lazy.

Markos, I am not undermining your story, I know why you have it and agree that it is useful, and has been very helpful to others. It touches on many of the most interesting things in existence, and tries to make sense of them. No harm in that. You do not need to defend your chosen scheme from me.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27011956 - 10/30/20 11:43 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
It seems RGV will use linguistics to argue subconscious isn't a thing and that will always be true depending on your perspective. We label things out of convenience, and to ease communication between individuals. We generally agree on the meanings of things to accomplish this. ...




.    Indeed, that people rationalize and engage in self deception, is well known to anyone with, with the least bit of intelligence & curiosity as to what makes folks tick. That there is a vast scientific literature, on the subject of peoples' tendency to distort truth/reality to maintain the illusion of consistency, is well known to those with a professional interest in the subject. As you say 'self deception' vs using 'unconscious' when it comes to terminology may be purely a matter of what the user thinks will 'persuade a jury', if you permit mixing metaphors.
.    In the mental maneuvering involved in such things as the Nazi's treatment of Jews in the concentration camps during the day, and their relationships with their kids and wives in the evening, again we find a form of 'disassociation', that has been explored in the literature. That some type of mental compartmentalization is occurring is again obvious.

.    When it comes to the point that: the "subconscious isn't a thing", this is well recognized by all who understand nominalization, & that english is a noun based rather than a verb based language. Science is faulted for being reductionist, but of course language itself has been so from the beginning, and must always remain so. Abstraction is both what lends mathematics power, as well as what confuses the literal minded, and in general generates as much confusion as clarity.
.    There are of course additionally different levels of abstraction, and a great spread among people, as to how deeply they can follow the distinctions involved. No one gets upset about this when it comes to mathematics. But when it comes to beating people up because they are burning flags; that a related mental error is occurring totally escapes all those involved.
.  Likewise that most arguments, belief systems, and often theories, also involve similar categorical errors, often escapes those who are more inclined to use words as weapons than fists as weapons.
.  As regards belief systems of course religion provides the most obvious examples of attachment to belief systems, as well as the related effort to control dogma, and even the use of language, as the history of heresy shows.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27012001 - 10/30/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

you may be onto something, but I don't think it is out enough.
this banana needs a bit more peel removed before I can taste the fruit of what you mean.

yes people use words differently.

yes religion relies on specific arcs of meaning for words that may not mean that in other circumstances.

is that the crux, or did that mean something else. There are enough words there that it could mean the opposite of my interpretation.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27012050 - 10/30/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Say one defines subconscious as a thing that doesn't exist but is a sensation or scapegoat for what humans feel acts beneath the surface of ordinary consciousness.

I think talking about the subconscious or lack thereof is important but we have to agree to talk on the same terms or at least see each other's definitions as is.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27012268 - 10/30/20 02:33 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you may be onto something, but I don't think it is out enough.
this banana needs a bit more peel removed before I can taste the fruit of what you mean.

yes people use words differently.




.  The only reason to change words is if clarity is improved by the change IMO, assuming we aren't talking fiction. Or more importantly if one's swticheroos did enable one to do anything approaching what Milton Erickson could do,...
And what (you ask) could he do? , well there are books and books about that and pages and pages on the web.

for example:
https://hypno4change.blogspot.com/2013/09/how-talking-about-tomato-plants-helped.html

the first 5-6 paragraphs here serve as an introduction:
up to the sentence:
"After these "tomato talk" sessions the man's condition improved DRASTICALLY."

after that continue to:
https://www.ericksoninstitute.it/en/38/palliative-care/one-day-at-the-time/
for an example

for a good general introduction to him
http://www.invisiblecows.com/Ericksonian.html

Many who use a lot of drugs regularly, like Leary, Mckenna, Lilly, and James Oroc, come up with elaborate theories as regards Mind & reality. Few amount to anything lasting, or of much interest to anyone except a few fans.

Stanislav Grof, with his Holotropic Breathwork, seems the only exception; and incidently he wrote: "Realms of the Human Unconscious: Observations from LSD Research"

However even Grof's work is of minimal impact compared to Erickson's.

To theorize about the mind, based just on subjective experience, while ignoring Erickson and his documented results is pretty much a recipe for irrelevance. Although from posting and arguing on a message board this may not be obvious, especially to those who confine their feedback to what is available from such a source.

Grof did base his work on hundreds of clients and workshops. So it is evidenced based and most definitely not mainly subjective, and does have both relevance and documentation, and practitioners, but is not mainstream due partly to the commitment involved and / or possibly its goals.

Relevant to all of this are Erickson's views on theories of psychology, as much of this is included in the general introduction to him at
http://www.invisiblecows.com/Ericksonian.html
I have skipped a lot of what would be unnecessary copy and pasting, which does not mean that it does not pertain intimately to the topic, along with the many case histories also readily available.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27012309 - 10/30/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

If you are unconscious (sleeping in this case) and you are dreaming (lucidly), are you conscious of the dream?

Unconscious seems antithetical to conscious, but there is an overlap here . . .


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27012425 - 10/30/20 04:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I think you are asking me to read http://www.invisiblecows.com/Ericksonian.html and comment so I will do that, later on.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27012436 - 10/30/20 04:38 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
If you are unconscious (sleeping in this case) and you are dreaming (lucidly), are you conscious of the dream?

Unconscious seems antithetical to conscious, but there is an overlap here . . .



this is the most interesting thing:
I think that when you are dreaming you are not actually unconscious.
Dreaming occurs for a few seconds in the transitions either while surfacing from sleep, or sinking into sleep. In a lab - REM is observed and brain activity shifts.

At home I usually awaken, and go what was that!??

in salvia terms, the dreaming state is nearly identical to level 4&5 visionary and immaterial which are waking states. and sleep is like level 6 - amnesia or unconscious.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27012498 - 10/30/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Conscious and unconscious defy any objectification within the current framework, for sure. (being that the onlookers could agree on unconsciousness of the subject but the unconscious subject might be obliged to disagree)

But that isn't to say the same is true about subconscious?


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27012801 - 10/30/20 07:53 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

"Subconscious" and innate instinct are the same or?


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #27012817 - 10/30/20 07:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I would think that the adrenaline pumping from fight or flight instinct would be considered subconscious most generally, as well as the fear that invoked it.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27012913 - 10/30/20 09:19 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Subconscious, unconscious, even conscious confuses the shit out of me when most people use them, because they are often thrown around like spaghetti on a wall.

E.g. when the conscious awareness recognises a consciousness, it doesn't take into account subconscious reward systems and therefore we aren't conscious of what the background is that moves from composing to completing.

I don't think we can stop that fof response, but we can learn to handle it and deal with it without it taking over and leaving you with shaky knees in the same spot.

I still get nervous quiet substantially, I was called by a radio talk show and had my heart racing for the 5 minutes I was on hold, I felt it, sincerely the pounding engine that is my heart, but it didn't stop me, I took the call, I said my words, I did what I set out to.

I can only speak for myself on this but whatever unconscious, subconscious, precocious stuff that makes me work, I've noticed that sometimes I have reduced hesitation, and it's usually because I'm paid to do it.

Whatever we want to call the part of ourselves we are not as in control or aware of, mine is one that appears to run on a simple reward system of if I get something out of it, I'll do it.

Without that, hesitation runs wild.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27013097 - 10/30/20 11:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think you are asking me to read http://www.invisiblecows.com/Ericksonian.html and comment so I will do that, later on.




.  Not exactly - I am suggesting that the tack you are taking, with your notions of how you think, others should think about the subject is unlikely ever to lead to results you will find satisfying.
.    Rather than just state this dogmatically, I have made the effort to substantiate why this seems to me, to be (obviously ) the case, once one considers the surrounding factors.
.  I think there is a lot of very relevant data that pertains to the subject, that tends to either be ignored, or not known of by those who have participated in this thread, or the other threads where you have pursued the same objective. Therefore I have provided links, (to a tiny fraction of the data) for anyone sincerely interested, in the subject, to evaluate for themselves, if they so desire.
.  Also mentioned is something about subjectivity and evidence, but there is no point in repeating, or spelling out all of the nuances...when scrolling is so easy for anyone who really gives a shit.


Edited by laughingdog (10/30/20 11:36 PM)


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #27013143 - 10/31/20 12:39 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I haven't differentiated consciousness from awareness and have been using them interchangeably.

Not sure what the difference would be.

With all of those feelings flooding into consciousness, you consciously summon the willpower/courage to power through the doubt and hesitation. :smile:

How do you do it? deep breathe? still the mind? self talk? slap yourself? take a shot of whiskey? or maybe just thinking about how much you're getting paid for it?

Or are you just letting the feelings run wild and doing it anyways.

I know if I still feel nervous during public speaking it comes out in my voice.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27013354 - 10/31/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

great, the article was indigestible to me, and the 1992 web formatting made me tired.

all I want to do with this is leave out the word "subconscious" in sentences where it adds no meaning, or is used to intentionally confuse or infantilize others by seeming to mean something other than nothing.

it is fake science as far as i can see and it pollutes the scientific literature.

not having you onside with this is a big issue, but not that big.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27013361 - 10/31/20 06:50 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
I haven't differentiated consciousness from awareness and have been using them interchangeably.

Not sure what the difference would be.




life experiences consciousness, and consciousness requires life in order to exist.  consciousness is relative to the needs of the vessel, as consciousness harmonizes with self-consistent information.  however, consciousness need not be bound strictly to an energetic plane as it is also a multi-dimensional force, that is able to transverse different sets of energetic parameters, and this is awareness.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27013393 - 10/31/20 07:31 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

teknix said:
I haven't differentiated consciousness from awareness and have been using them interchangeably.

Not sure what the difference would be.




life experiences consciousness, and consciousness requires life in order to exist.  consciousness is relative to the needs of the vessel, as consciousness harmonizes with self-consistent information.  however, consciousness need not be bound strictly to an energetic plane as it is also a multi-dimensional force, that is able to transverse different sets of energetic parameters, and this is awareness.



no, awareness - which is the part of consciousness that is not peripheral (i.e. the field of attention or reflection (which is an activity of mind -to reflect or copy-) is where the meaning of awareness is found).
conscious entities may have a lot or just a little awareness depending on their activity states and habits.
a lot of peripheral awareness with good centering is like a bright light (a saint perhaps).
most of consciousness is not so aware or bright.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27026798 - 11/07/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
I haven't differentiated consciousness from awareness and have been using them interchangeably.






indeed--they seem identical--also note that both words are nouns

and nouns are for objects

and in actuality the act of maintaining awareness should be a verb

so another synonym may come closer:

"experiencing",  as it is a verb and not an object

and also implies a perceiver

which is most obviously necessary in the case of vision

where the perceiver's location must be specified to get proper perspective.


That consciousness in actuality is not a noun or object seems very important to me, and not just semantics. We search for objects, but not verbs.
We say: " Where did I leave my keys?"
But not: " Where did I leave my running?"
We say: "Where are my keys located?"
But not: "Where is my running located?"

But when it comes to consciousness scientists seriously search for it
but no one would make the mistake of searching for a single location of experiencing, or a single origin of running, or a single origin of experiencing.

Dare one be so bold, as to wonder if scientists, smarter than one self in many ways, are "barking up the wrong tree", as regards this issue?


Edited by laughingdog (11/07/20 01:13 PM)


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27026882 - 11/07/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

philosophy is a noun.
you is a pronoun.

nounishness is not particularly an argument.


however, to search for consciousness, you may need a few consistent nouns and verbs and a well calibrated attention to detail.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27030530 - 11/09/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
nounishness is not particularly an argument.





??

Regardless many mediators and trippers find similar objections to the supposed objectivity of the scientific view point, (re: consciousness), and besides you and me, the topic's potential subtleties seem of little interest here at present. And the Zen literature is already replete with commentary on the matter. Clearly it is unnecessary to add even more legs to the snake.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27030579 - 11/09/20 05:58 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

maybe it is clear to you that way, but how about this????

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/reptiles/d/draco-lizard/


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27030652 - 11/09/20 07:06 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:

The ole draco out of the pocket, that trick is so old.

But it still gets me every time!

I still too dumb to grasp the subtleties, but thanks for trying!

(Icelander was a great Devil's advocate by challenging every assertion he could, RIP)


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27030685 - 11/09/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Quote:

teknix said:
I haven't differentiated consciousness from awareness and have been using them interchangeably.

Not sure what the difference would be.




life experiences consciousness, and consciousness requires life in order to exist.  consciousness is relative to the needs of the vessel, as consciousness harmonizes with self-consistent information.  however, consciousness need not be bound strictly to an energetic plane as it is also a multi-dimensional force, that is able to transverse different sets of energetic parameters, and this is awareness.



no, awareness - which is the part of consciousness that is not peripheral (i.e. the field of attention or reflection (which is an activity of mind -to reflect or copy-) is where the meaning of awareness is found).
conscious entities may have a lot or just a little awareness depending on their activity states and habits.
a lot of peripheral awareness with good centering is like a bright light (a saint perhaps).
most of consciousness is not so aware or bright.




An animal could not be conscious of pain without being aware of pain. Awareness can be directed towards certain subconscious aspects of a being, to bring them into consciousness. It is a mediator of sorts, and can be consciously controlled. I can put my awareness in my pinky and then feel love in my pinky, just by remember the feeling of love and consciously directing it to the location of my awareness.

Is anything lost if I just use awareness instead of consciousness or conscious?

I move awareness to my pinky and remember the feeling of love and feel it at the location of awareness.

So much simpler.

I move my consciousness to my pinky, just doesn't seem right. Consciousness seems to be more stationary and in your head, but awareness can cover that as well as the mobility.

Consciousness and unconsciousness could just be the state of brainwaves differentiating sleeping and awake.

So your awareness is mostly in your eyes as you read this, you move a small portion of it to your pinky and direct whatever energy you have master to that point.

Consciousness is the illusion.

Conscious, if it can be equated to consciousness, is really only useful to say if someone is awake or asleep and even that is obfuscated when considered subjectively.

Then could clearing your awareness have the same meaning as clearing your conscious?

If so, the supposed subconscious is the periphery of awareness.


Edited by teknix (11/09/20 07:52 PM)


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27030716 - 11/09/20 07:58 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

99 people standing around 1 guy sleeping, all 99 people agree the guy is unconscious, so he is objectively unconscious.

So how much weight can you put into objectivity, when it is the guy sleeping that has more relevance to explain his current state than the 99 people standing around him.

All 99 observers are in Plato's Cave looking and trying to make sense of the shadows on the wall.

Shatter!


Edited by teknix (11/09/20 08:08 PM)


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27030823 - 11/09/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
...
Is anything lost if I just use awareness instead of consciousness or conscious?

I move awareness to my pinky and remember the feeling of love and feel it at the location of awareness.

So much simpler.
...




if only.
how do you move your awareness?
more likely you become aware of what has popped into your field of interest,
either physically or associatively.

it is not like moving a lever or steering a car, and would that be any simpler, or just less questioned, i.e. more familiar.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27031132 - 11/10/20 06:56 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

i wonder if everyone just walked around naked all of the time if more of the subconscious would be on display.

it's interesting how in psychadelic states people frequently end up naked.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27031137 - 11/10/20 07:01 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Physically it is done through the sense of touch and feeling, as well as focus.
Associativity, like empathy for example, is a switch in perspective to not that of your own but that of another.
Awareness doesn't have to be fixed to a singular personal perspective, position, or location. Freeing awareness from that fixed perspective is done by eliminating the attachments holding it there, IE the Ego, World Views, Absolutes, etc.

All of it is a choice, even if it isn't always evident. Some choices are made in the periphery, like personal feelings or empathy, but they can also be made directly when brought into awareness.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27031144 - 11/10/20 07:09 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I caught myself wanting to use conscious and subconscious a couple of time when explaining the above, I don't know that anything was lost by omitting it, and it might have just been more of a trained worldview about these phenomena than anything. Commonly used descriptors that had formed an imprint in the brain.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27031349 - 11/10/20 10:05 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
I caught myself wanting to use conscious and subconscious a couple of time when explaining the above, I don't know that anything was lost by omitting it, and it might have just been more of a trained worldview about these phenomena than anything. Commonly used descriptors that had formed an imprint in the brain.



exactly, although, associativity is the basic function of memory formation and recall so I think you have it in the wrong group ('perspectives').

my guess is that you had to twist your attitude to look at associativity, and after that twisting, you felt you could call it a perspective, since it is twisted from your normal habits in thinking.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27031374 - 11/10/20 10:16 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

memories are able to effect behaviour without being consciously aware of it.  the body can remember many things better than consciousness can.

the body is not just a vehicle for the brain to cruise around in.  the body literally has a mind of its own.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27031423 - 11/10/20 10:50 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

teknix said:
I caught myself wanting to use conscious and subconscious a couple of time when explaining the above, I don't know that anything was lost by omitting it, and it might have just been more of a trained worldview about these phenomena than anything. Commonly used descriptors that had formed an imprint in the brain.



exactly, although, associativity is the basic function of memory formation and recall so I think you have it in the wrong group ('perspectives').

my guess is that you had to twist your attitude to look at associativity, and after that twisting, you felt you could call it a perspective, since it is twisted from your normal habits in thinking.



If you are referencing the post above what you quoted then I disagree. Perspectives are definitely associative, when they aren't fixed in place by the ego.
The whole idea of "No subconscious" was associated from another perspective that was incorporated into these current chains of thought. It isn't fixed and can change at any given time, and doesn't necessarily quantify the totality of a worldview.
I'm just looking at it from that angle, which was presented. Sometimes a person has a singular perspective and won't (either consciously or subconsciously) associate any other perspective.

Perhaps you are using associativity in a way that I'm unfamiliar with, could you define it?

If someone calls their self a materialist they will most likely adhere to that perspective, and look at everything from that perspective, and use that perspective and established evidence, reasoning, logic of that perspective as evidence against anything contrary, rather than looking from the contrary. They are looking for why you are wrong, rather than considering how you could be right.


Edited by teknix (11/10/20 11:00 AM)


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27031569 - 11/10/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

But there-in lies the flaw, conscious decisions versus subconscious ones.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27031700 - 11/10/20 02:04 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

you can do that with the term associative, however I am not talking about that -
I tried to be clear, but I will lock it down more:

when I say associative I am talking about the inter-engram links and the intra-engram links.

the pattern of activated cortical neurons in a  moment is inter-linked by a chemical spatial event capturing phenomenon specific to those neurons that are stimulated at the same time - a thalamus/basal ganglia mediated loop may be involved in sustaining stimulation of the engram until it is fixed into memory (many small synapses are built which increase in size and strength each time they are stimulated - enabling habit or rote learning).

later when a similar pattern/engram becomes activated, it will tend to stimulate the activity of associated neurons from the previous similar engram. The closer the match the more fully the previous engram becomes re-excited.

and so on, it just keeps going on and on  - one mental object linking to the next with sensation all as a continuum.

Essentially: things that happen together in a moment are associated forming a memory (engram), and similar things that are encountered later become associated (engram matching generating recollection).

it is a real thing that happens at the cortical neuronal level, enabling both memory(engram) fixation and recollection of what is similar, or happened at the same time.

but yes, association can certainly be used in other ways in many fields of study.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27032227 - 11/10/20 07:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

So you are basically and more simply talking about the pattern of neurons being recalled through memory when that pattern is associated to a current event, experience, idea, etc., and implemented into the thought process to formulate a completed comprehension of the aforementioned association occurring before memory storage?

The chemistry involved is interesting however not entirely relevant imo. (Call me a conceptualist, but I can't fact check the chemistry involved without having studied the field, and to assume everyone has studied the field and know what you mean when you say associative is assuming to say the least)

The patterns lighting up in the brain upon association is part of the world view that has been constructed or programmed into you, the way you look at things, your perspective?

This pattern triggering that pattern which triggers another pattern is all related to how your brain is programmed to look at and interpret as well as articulate the world around you.

That's how brainwashing works right? People have certain sequences of neurons programmed into their brain that are recalled upon an associative event, idea, experience, etc..

That's how some people remember the order of a deck of cards right? (among other things) Associating the card to images that later recall from memory; a purple dancing elephant on a stack of green books in front of a yellow library with a boy wearing a red hat watching with brown binoculars on the otherside of a 4 way street while standing in front of the firehouse with a yellow siren blinking as the red firetruck is emerging in front of the blue mercedes.

Then all you do is see that picture you created in your brain while looking at the cards, and remember the order the picture was made and which card is represented by each part of the picture.


Edited by teknix (11/10/20 08:47 PM)


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27032250 - 11/10/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Albert Einstein — 'The definition of genius is taking the complex and making it simple.'


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27032843 - 11/11/20 06:26 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I am trying to remove some gunk from the works.

Quote:

teknix said:
So you are basically and more simply talking about the pattern of neurons being recalled through memory when that pattern is associated to similar to a current event, experience, idea, etc., and implemented into the thought process to formulate a completed comprehension of the aforementioned association occurring before memory storage?





I am only referring to 3 aspects of association:

1. it happened together at the same time as other stuff in a memory pattern (this is what enables a pattern to be fixed among a group of cells excited at the same time and connected together into an engram). Things that happen together are associated (into memory) by the creation of small memory synapses linking co-active cells.

2. when key similarities occur (wave interference patterns in the cerebral cortex) they evoke saved memories with conforming mental energy patterns (from memory). This association reflex happens instantaneously, and can spread or cascade if there is no distraction.

3. the more times that the same things occur together the more powerful the linkage between them becomes (rote learning, habit formation etc.). When triggered practiced patterns emerge with strong cohesion or clarity.

I hope that simplification works.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27032861 - 11/11/20 06:42 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

. In 1949 this idea was formalized by Hebb,2 who suggested that such modifications should take place between the connected cells if and only if both neurons were simultaneously active. From this idea emerged the well-known Hebb's rule: When an axon of cell A is near enough to excite a cell B and repeatedly and persistently takes part in firing it, some growth process or metabolic change takes place in one or both cells such that A's efficacy, as one of the cells firing B, is increased. Information is therefore encoded by strengthening the connections between neurons that are simultaneously activated.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330538/

I don't see why you crossed out memory because it goes on to say;

The discovery of Hebb-like synaptic plasticity in a putative memory structure was one of the most important neurophysiological finds of the 1950s. Hebb's main interest was considering how complex neural networks could account for phenomena such as perception and memory.

So I should have said perception rather than perspective.

It also says:

Synaptic plasticity became the target of much neurobiological research as its role in memory formation was elucidated. Evidence indicated that activity-dependent short-term and long-term changes in strength of synaptic transmission are important for memory processes.

So was your beef that I only included recall rather than creation as well?

If you could cite your sources from the authors of the research to which you reference in the future, that would be very helpful! (Also, they kind of deserve the credit for all the work they did, I could see how you might consider it common knowledge in the given topic, but this is the shroomery!)


Edited by teknix (11/11/20 07:13 AM)


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27032908 - 11/11/20 07:29 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

All that being said, I'll still argue that the strengthened neural pathways are more likely to be associated in any given circumstance, as they have been committed to memory so often to make them stronger, plays a big role in ones perspective.

Consider biological cascading;

A biochemical cascade, also known as a signaling cascade or signaling pathway, is a series of chemical reactions that occur within a biological cell when initiated by a stimulus. This stimulus, known as a first messenger, acts on a receptor that is transduced to the cell interior through second messengers which amplify the signal and transfer it to effector molecules, causing the cell to respond to the initial stimulus.[1] Most biochemical cascades are series of events, in which one event triggers the next, in a linear fashion. At each step of the signaling cascade, various controlling factors are involved to regulate cellular actions, in order to respond effectively to cues about their changing internal and external environments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochemical_cascade

So I'm suggesting that there is a higher probability that the already strengthened connections will take part in the cascade.

Like the brainwashing I mentioned earlier, is a perfect example. People being programmed to perceive things in a way that their brains have been conditioned for / programmed to.


Edited by teknix (11/11/20 07:47 AM)


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27032928 - 11/11/20 07:44 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Remember synaptic plasticity as the locus of memory is just a theory. Eric kandel and jerry rudy are some of the pioneers in that field.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27032937 - 11/11/20 07:52 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Ah, thanks for correlating that. :thumbup:


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27032942 - 11/11/20 07:56 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
So you are basically and more simply talking about the pattern of neurons being recalled through memory when that pattern is associated to similar to a current event, experience, idea, etc., and implemented into the thought process to formulate a completed comprehension of the aforementioned association occurring before memory storage?





I crossed out the phrase "through memory" along with other word sequences that are unclear adjuncts.

a pattern of neurons can be recalled - the reactivation of the pattern is memory, or the act of remembering, the pattern or engram being the memory trace. I removed "through memory" because the event happens directly like a photograph, not through any additional memory process

I am sorry not to leave references - I have not collected any, just looked for consistent facts that are simple, and which have integrity through many personal thought experiments.

I cant assume others see things the same - just sharing how I see it, usually with fewer words and simpler phrases that remain true in more situations than otherwise.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27032956 - 11/11/20 08:05 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, it is a word soup. I'm learning a lot though and do appreciate it.


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27032989 - 11/11/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

i wonder, how does the sub conscious experience time?


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27033185 - 11/11/20 10:40 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

something that does not exist (except as a socially accepted superstition) does not experience another thing that does not exist (except as a physics principle).

and if you believe that you are a real troublemaker


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27033250 - 11/11/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

time exists in the sense that it’s a narrative to keep people engaged, but engaged only in perspective so that experience may take place.  time is a simulator for experience, and experience of time defines experience of motion & form.  there is a backward temporal reference that is coordinated within the illusion of consciousness that can not be explained by any neurophysiological process. 

due to the fact that it takes a half second of brain activity before a stimulus can be detected, before conscious awareness of the stimulus can be detected, the consciousness must perform a backward temporal adjustment so that the human can delude themselves into believing that awareness of the stimulus is experienced as if it occurred immediately after the stimulus, not a half second or so later when the consciousness is actually experiencing it.  impressions take different amounts of time to process, yet the impressions are added together to make an experience that is synchronized in time.  consciousness conceals these subliminal perceptions as it may capture them, but it is not able to process them!


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27033258 - 11/11/20 11:28 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

your facts are embedded in cloudy language, but essentially we can sense time passing, but in different states of mind, the passing of time can stop or even run backwards as well as normally forward, fast forward and slow as molasses.

did you want to try to say what you were thinking without using so many lousy psychological terms?


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27033267 - 11/11/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

you still haven't sent me my rgv picture dictionary that i requested 7 weeks ago!

which words need to be changed?  which words should did i use in  lousely defined way? i made sure i didn't say subconscious, because i know how much you dislike that one!


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27033499 - 11/11/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

no picture book for you
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
time exists in the sense that it’s a narrative to keep people engaged, but engaged only in perspective so that experience may take place. 




yes that is one aspect of the reality of time passing, but I do not see the relationship of perspective and experience taking place - are you suggesting:
time + experience = existence
?
I did not actually read that in your words but if I take out all the junk I get that and it is a bit profound.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
time is a simulator for experience, and experience of time defines experience of motion & form. 



ok depending on what is meant by simulator, however, do you mean this more simply as
time = motion and form
?
anyway you have other issues with time that we might look at.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
there is a backward temporal reference that is coordinated within the illusion of consciousness that can not be explained by any neurophysiological process. 




two classes of neurophysiology relate to time passing:
one examines the regular fading of signal pulse trains
and the other examines the cerebellum's involvement with timing "callbacks".
Like other peripherals, like your arm, the cerebellum can return a signal echo that is associatively invoked. The cerebellum echoes have a great range of timing differences, and  thousands of them can be active simultaneously.
Traditionally the cerebellum is assumed to 'be involved with coordination and balance', more work has to be done to pin it all down exactly.

also the term illusion here is unnecessary.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
due to the fact that it takes a half second of brain activity before a stimulus can be detected,



my notes on time are below, but no, the stimulus is in the cortex much faster than that, and it can be 'perceived' or matched faster if the experience fits in context with the meaning of the stimulus - however - important messages that are not contextual to the activity will take longer to form perceptions or recognize.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
before conscious awareness



adding the word conscious is redundant and even a bit pretentious.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:of the stimulus can be detected, the consciousness must perform a backward temporal adjustment so that the human can delude themselves into believing that awareness of the stimulus is experienced as if it occurred immediately after the stimulus, not a half second or so later when the consciousness is actually experiencing it.



the half second is so arbitrary, note: human interface engineering suggests that anything taking more than 1/4 of a second is too slow: it frustrates us, while things progressing faster than 1/20th of a second blur into a continuity.
anyway I think you are speculating too much about temporal perception in the emotional ego-sphere rather than the basic sense of time passing which occurs as signals fade away in the brain. regular intervals are one of the things we are good at.

This also ties in with hearing and our built in time interval sequencer of the cerebellum which seems to provide a kind of multiple programmable sequencer that can tie into associative memory and learning.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said: impressions take different amounts of time to process, yet the impressions are added together to make an experience that is synchronized in time.



Correct, but consider how vague the term "process" is:
what is really taking different amounts of time are the quantity and extent of associations that are rapidly chiming in before the next 'salient' content becomes center of attention.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
consciousness conceals these subliminal perceptions as it may capture them, but it is not able to process them!



sub liminal suggests that a weak perceptions occurred that triggered no interest (i.e. not resonant enough with any other mental activity to expand associatively)


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27033676 - 11/11/20 03:52 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

a subliminal perception may not be of interest for the consciousness, but that doesn’t mean that the subconscious didn’t do something with that bit of information.  subconscious perception is initially an unseen variance that cannot be controlled, but that doesn't mean that meaning can't surface despite the lack of known stimulus.

process - a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.

i am not speculating about the half second delay, see the work of Benjamin Libret - http://www.consciousentities.com/libet.htm
thinking of this work is what inspired me to ask my original question about the relationship between the subconscious and time as his work sought to understand the relationship between an event as it is recorded objectively and as it is experienced subjectively.

i say ā€œconscious awarenessā€ to articulate the part that is registering the stimulus that it is capturing.

simulate - to use a model to imitate certain conditions for purposes of study or training

the only true measure of time is time itself, but the  experience of time defines the experience of motion & form -  it is the principal characteristic of time -  i’m not sure what the issue is with this.  it is what creates the experience of time passing.

consciousness could be an illusion - who knows!  am i really a butterfly dreaming about posting on the Shroomery?


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