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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27032227 - 11/10/20 07:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

So you are basically and more simply talking about the pattern of neurons being recalled through memory when that pattern is associated to a current event, experience, idea, etc., and implemented into the thought process to formulate a completed comprehension of the aforementioned association occurring before memory storage?

The chemistry involved is interesting however not entirely relevant imo. (Call me a conceptualist, but I can't fact check the chemistry involved without having studied the field, and to assume everyone has studied the field and know what you mean when you say associative is assuming to say the least)

The patterns lighting up in the brain upon association is part of the world view that has been constructed or programmed into you, the way you look at things, your perspective?

This pattern triggering that pattern which triggers another pattern is all related to how your brain is programmed to look at and interpret as well as articulate the world around you.

That's how brainwashing works right? People have certain sequences of neurons programmed into their brain that are recalled upon an associative event, idea, experience, etc..

That's how some people remember the order of a deck of cards right? (among other things) Associating the card to images that later recall from memory; a purple dancing elephant on a stack of green books in front of a yellow library with a boy wearing a red hat watching with brown binoculars on the otherside of a 4 way street while standing in front of the firehouse with a yellow siren blinking as the red firetruck is emerging in front of the blue mercedes.

Then all you do is see that picture you created in your brain while looking at the cards, and remember the order the picture was made and which card is represented by each part of the picture.


Edited by teknix (11/10/20 08:47 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27032250 - 11/10/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Albert Einstein β€” 'The definition of genius is taking the complex and making it simple.'


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27032843 - 11/11/20 06:26 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I am trying to remove some gunk from the works.

Quote:

teknix said:
So you are basically and more simply talking about the pattern of neurons being recalled through memory when that pattern is associated to similar to a current event, experience, idea, etc., and implemented into the thought process to formulate a completed comprehension of the aforementioned association occurring before memory storage?





I am only referring to 3 aspects of association:

1. it happened together at the same time as other stuff in a memory pattern (this is what enables a pattern to be fixed among a group of cells excited at the same time and connected together into an engram). Things that happen together are associated (into memory) by the creation of small memory synapses linking co-active cells.

2. when key similarities occur (wave interference patterns in the cerebral cortex) they evoke saved memories with conforming mental energy patterns (from memory). This association reflex happens instantaneously, and can spread or cascade if there is no distraction.

3. the more times that the same things occur together the more powerful the linkage between them becomes (rote learning, habit formation etc.). When triggered practiced patterns emerge with strong cohesion or clarity.

I hope that simplification works.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27032861 - 11/11/20 06:42 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

. In 1949 this idea was formalized by Hebb,2 who suggested that such modifications should take place between the connected cells if and only if both neurons were simultaneously active. From this idea emerged the well-known Hebb's rule: When an axon of cell A is near enough to excite a cell B and repeatedly and persistently takes part in firing it, some growth process or metabolic change takes place in one or both cells such that A's efficacy, as one of the cells firing B, is increased. Information is therefore encoded by strengthening the connections between neurons that are simultaneously activated.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330538/

I don't see why you crossed out memory because it goes on to say;

The discovery of Hebb-like synaptic plasticity in a putative memory structure was one of the most important neurophysiological finds of the 1950s. Hebb's main interest was considering how complex neural networks could account for phenomena such as perception and memory.

So I should have said perception rather than perspective.

It also says:

Synaptic plasticity became the target of much neurobiological research as its role in memory formation was elucidated. Evidence indicated that activity-dependent short-term and long-term changes in strength of synaptic transmission are important for memory processes.

So was your beef that I only included recall rather than creation as well?

If you could cite your sources from the authors of the research to which you reference in the future, that would be very helpful! (Also, they kind of deserve the credit for all the work they did, I could see how you might consider it common knowledge in the given topic, but this is the shroomery!)


Edited by teknix (11/11/20 07:13 AM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27032908 - 11/11/20 07:29 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

All that being said, I'll still argue that the strengthened neural pathways are more likely to be associated in any given circumstance, as they have been committed to memory so often to make them stronger, plays a big role in ones perspective.

Consider biological cascading;

A biochemical cascade, also known as a signaling cascade or signaling pathway, is a series of chemical reactions that occur within a biological cell when initiated by a stimulus. This stimulus, known as a first messenger, acts on a receptor that is transduced to the cell interior through second messengers which amplify the signal and transfer it to effector molecules, causing the cell to respond to the initial stimulus.[1] Most biochemical cascades are series of events, in which one event triggers the next, in a linear fashion. At each step of the signaling cascade, various controlling factors are involved to regulate cellular actions, in order to respond effectively to cues about their changing internal and external environments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochemical_cascade

So I'm suggesting that there is a higher probability that the already strengthened connections will take part in the cascade.

Like the brainwashing I mentioned earlier, is a perfect example. People being programmed to perceive things in a way that their brains have been conditioned for / programmed to.


Edited by teknix (11/11/20 07:47 AM)


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27032928 - 11/11/20 07:44 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Remember synaptic plasticity as the locus of memory is just a theory. Eric kandel and jerry rudy are some of the pioneers in that field.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27032937 - 11/11/20 07:52 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Ah, thanks for correlating that. :thumbup:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27032942 - 11/11/20 07:56 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
So you are basically and more simply talking about the pattern of neurons being recalled through memory when that pattern is associated to similar to a current event, experience, idea, etc., and implemented into the thought process to formulate a completed comprehension of the aforementioned association occurring before memory storage?





I crossed out the phrase "through memory" along with other word sequences that are unclear adjuncts.

a pattern of neurons can be recalled - the reactivation of the pattern is memory, or the act of remembering, the pattern or engram being the memory trace. I removed "through memory" because the event happens directly like a photograph, not through any additional memory process

I am sorry not to leave references - I have not collected any, just looked for consistent facts that are simple, and which have integrity through many personal thought experiments.

I cant assume others see things the same - just sharing how I see it, usually with fewer words and simpler phrases that remain true in more situations than otherwise.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27032956 - 11/11/20 08:05 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, it is a word soup. I'm learning a lot though and do appreciate it.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27032989 - 11/11/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

i wonder, how does the sub conscious experience time?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27033185 - 11/11/20 10:40 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

something that does not exist (except as a socially accepted superstition) does not experience another thing that does not exist (except as a physics principle).

and if you believe that you are a real troublemaker


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27033250 - 11/11/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

time exists in the sense that it’s a narrative to keep people engaged, but engaged only in perspective so that experience may take place.  time is a simulator for experience, and experience of time defines experience of motion & form.  there is a backward temporal reference that is coordinated within the illusion of consciousness that can not be explained by any neurophysiological process. 

due to the fact that it takes a half second of brain activity before a stimulus can be detected, before conscious awareness of the stimulus can be detected, the consciousness must perform a backward temporal adjustment so that the human can delude themselves into believing that awareness of the stimulus is experienced as if it occurred immediately after the stimulus, not a half second or so later when the consciousness is actually experiencing it.  impressions take different amounts of time to process, yet the impressions are added together to make an experience that is synchronized in time.  consciousness conceals these subliminal perceptions as it may capture them, but it is not able to process them!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27033258 - 11/11/20 11:28 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

your facts are embedded in cloudy language, but essentially we can sense time passing, but in different states of mind, the passing of time can stop or even run backwards as well as normally forward, fast forward and slow as molasses.

did you want to try to say what you were thinking without using so many lousy psychological terms?


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27033267 - 11/11/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

you still haven't sent me my rgv picture dictionary that i requested 7 weeks ago!

which words need to be changed?  which words should did i use in  lousely defined way? i made sure i didn't say subconscious, because i know how much you dislike that one!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27033499 - 11/11/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

no picture book for you
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
time exists in the sense that it’s a narrative to keep people engaged, but engaged only in perspective so that experience may take place. 




yes that is one aspect of the reality of time passing, but I do not see the relationship of perspective and experience taking place - are you suggesting:
time + experience = existence
?
I did not actually read that in your words but if I take out all the junk I get that and it is a bit profound.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
time is a simulator for experience, and experience of time defines experience of motion & form. 



ok depending on what is meant by simulator, however, do you mean this more simply as
time = motion and form
?
anyway you have other issues with time that we might look at.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
there is a backward temporal reference that is coordinated within the illusion of consciousness that can not be explained by any neurophysiological process. 




two classes of neurophysiology relate to time passing:
one examines the regular fading of signal pulse trains
and the other examines the cerebellum's involvement with timing "callbacks".
Like other peripherals, like your arm, the cerebellum can return a signal echo that is associatively invoked. The cerebellum echoes have a great range of timing differences, and  thousands of them can be active simultaneously.
Traditionally the cerebellum is assumed to 'be involved with coordination and balance', more work has to be done to pin it all down exactly.

also the term illusion here is unnecessary.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
due to the fact that it takes a half second of brain activity before a stimulus can be detected,



my notes on time are below, but no, the stimulus is in the cortex much faster than that, and it can be 'perceived' or matched faster if the experience fits in context with the meaning of the stimulus - however - important messages that are not contextual to the activity will take longer to form perceptions or recognize.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
before conscious awareness



adding the word conscious is redundant and even a bit pretentious.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:of the stimulus can be detected, the consciousness must perform a backward temporal adjustment so that the human can delude themselves into believing that awareness of the stimulus is experienced as if it occurred immediately after the stimulus, not a half second or so later when the consciousness is actually experiencing it.



the half second is so arbitrary, note: human interface engineering suggests that anything taking more than 1/4 of a second is too slow: it frustrates us, while things progressing faster than 1/20th of a second blur into a continuity.
anyway I think you are speculating too much about temporal perception in the emotional ego-sphere rather than the basic sense of time passing which occurs as signals fade away in the brain. regular intervals are one of the things we are good at.

This also ties in with hearing and our built in time interval sequencer of the cerebellum which seems to provide a kind of multiple programmable sequencer that can tie into associative memory and learning.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said: impressions take different amounts of time to process, yet the impressions are added together to make an experience that is synchronized in time.



Correct, but consider how vague the term "process" is:
what is really taking different amounts of time are the quantity and extent of associations that are rapidly chiming in before the next 'salient' content becomes center of attention.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
consciousness conceals these subliminal perceptions as it may capture them, but it is not able to process them!



sub liminal suggests that a weak perceptions occurred that triggered no interest (i.e. not resonant enough with any other mental activity to expand associatively)


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27033676 - 11/11/20 03:52 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

a subliminal perception may not be of interest for the consciousness, but that doesn’t mean that the subconscious didn’t do something with that bit of information.  subconscious perception is initially an unseen variance that cannot be controlled, but that doesn't mean that meaning can't surface despite the lack of known stimulus.

process - a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.

i am not speculating about the half second delay, see the work of Benjamin Libret - http://www.consciousentities.com/libet.htm
thinking of this work is what inspired me to ask my original question about the relationship between the subconscious and time as his work sought to understand the relationship between an event as it is recorded objectively and as it is experienced subjectively.

i say β€œconscious awareness” to articulate the part that is registering the stimulus that it is capturing.

simulate - to use a model to imitate certain conditions for purposes of study or training

the only true measure of time is time itself, but the  experience of time defines the experience of motion & form -  it is the principal characteristic of time -  i’m not sure what the issue is with this.  it is what creates the experience of time passing.

consciousness could be an illusion - who knows!  am i really a butterfly dreaming about posting on the Shroomery?


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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