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teknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
#27013143 - 10/31/20 12:39 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I haven't differentiated consciousness from awareness and have been using them interchangeably.
Not sure what the difference would be.
With all of those feelings flooding into consciousness, you consciously summon the willpower/courage to power through the doubt and hesitation. 
How do you do it? deep breathe? still the mind? self talk? slap yourself? take a shot of whiskey? or maybe just thinking about how much you're getting paid for it?
Or are you just letting the feelings run wild and doing it anyways.
I know if I still feel nervous during public speaking it comes out in my voice.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
#27013354 - 10/31/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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great, the article was indigestible to me, and the 1992 web formatting made me tired.
all I want to do with this is leave out the word "subconscious" in sentences where it adds no meaning, or is used to intentionally confuse or infantilize others by seeming to mean something other than nothing.
it is fake science as far as i can see and it pollutes the scientific literature.
not having you onside with this is a big issue, but not that big.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
#27013361 - 10/31/20 06:50 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: I haven't differentiated consciousness from awareness and have been using them interchangeably.
Not sure what the difference would be.
life experiences consciousness, and consciousness requires life in order to exist. consciousness is relative to the needs of the vessel, as consciousness harmonizes with self-consistent information. however, consciousness need not be bound strictly to an energetic plane as it is also a multi-dimensional force, that is able to transverse different sets of energetic parameters, and this is awareness.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
#27013393 - 10/31/20 07:31 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
Quote:
teknix said: I haven't differentiated consciousness from awareness and have been using them interchangeably.
Not sure what the difference would be.
life experiences consciousness, and consciousness requires life in order to exist. consciousness is relative to the needs of the vessel, as consciousness harmonizes with self-consistent information. however, consciousness need not be bound strictly to an energetic plane as it is also a multi-dimensional force, that is able to transverse different sets of energetic parameters, and this is awareness.
no, awareness - which is the part of consciousness that is not peripheral (i.e. the field of attention or reflection (which is an activity of mind -to reflect or copy-) is where the meaning of awareness is found). conscious entities may have a lot or just a little awareness depending on their activity states and habits. a lot of peripheral awareness with good centering is like a bright light (a saint perhaps). most of consciousness is not so aware or bright.
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laughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
#27026798 - 11/07/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: I haven't differentiated consciousness from awareness and have been using them interchangeably.
indeed--they seem identical--also note that both words are nouns
and nouns are for objects
and in actuality the act of maintaining awareness should be a verb
so another synonym may come closer:
"experiencing", as it is a verb and not an object
and also implies a perceiver
which is most obviously necessary in the case of vision
where the perceiver's location must be specified to get proper perspective.
That consciousness in actuality is not a noun or object seems very important to me, and not just semantics. We search for objects, but not verbs. We say: " Where did I leave my keys?" But not: " Where did I leave my running?" We say: "Where are my keys located?" But not: "Where is my running located?"
But when it comes to consciousness scientists seriously search for it but no one would make the mistake of searching for a single location of experiencing, or a single origin of running, or a single origin of experiencing.
Dare one be so bold, as to wonder if scientists, smarter than one self in many ways, are "barking up the wrong tree", as regards this issue?
Edited by laughingdog (11/07/20 01:13 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
#27026882 - 11/07/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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philosophy is a noun. you is a pronoun.
nounishness is not particularly an argument.
however, to search for consciousness, you may need a few consistent nouns and verbs and a well calibrated attention to detail.
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laughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
#27030530 - 11/09/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: nounishness is not particularly an argument.
??
Regardless many mediators and trippers find similar objections to the supposed objectivity of the scientific view point, (re: consciousness), and besides you and me, the topic's potential subtleties seem of little interest here at present. And the Zen literature is already replete with commentary on the matter. Clearly it is unnecessary to add even more legs to the snake.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
#27030579 - 11/09/20 05:58 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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teknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
#27030652 - 11/09/20 07:06 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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The ole draco out of the pocket, that trick is so old.
But it still gets me every time!
I still too dumb to grasp the subtleties, but thanks for trying!
(Icelander was a great Devil's advocate by challenging every assertion he could, RIP)
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teknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
#27030685 - 11/09/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
Quote:
teknix said: I haven't differentiated consciousness from awareness and have been using them interchangeably.
Not sure what the difference would be.
life experiences consciousness, and consciousness requires life in order to exist. consciousness is relative to the needs of the vessel, as consciousness harmonizes with self-consistent information. however, consciousness need not be bound strictly to an energetic plane as it is also a multi-dimensional force, that is able to transverse different sets of energetic parameters, and this is awareness.
no, awareness - which is the part of consciousness that is not peripheral (i.e. the field of attention or reflection (which is an activity of mind -to reflect or copy-) is where the meaning of awareness is found). conscious entities may have a lot or just a little awareness depending on their activity states and habits. a lot of peripheral awareness with good centering is like a bright light (a saint perhaps). most of consciousness is not so aware or bright.
An animal could not be conscious of pain without being aware of pain. Awareness can be directed towards certain subconscious aspects of a being, to bring them into consciousness. It is a mediator of sorts, and can be consciously controlled. I can put my awareness in my pinky and then feel love in my pinky, just by remember the feeling of love and consciously directing it to the location of my awareness.
Is anything lost if I just use awareness instead of consciousness or conscious?
I move awareness to my pinky and remember the feeling of love and feel it at the location of awareness.
So much simpler.
I move my consciousness to my pinky, just doesn't seem right. Consciousness seems to be more stationary and in your head, but awareness can cover that as well as the mobility.
Consciousness and unconsciousness could just be the state of brainwaves differentiating sleeping and awake.
So your awareness is mostly in your eyes as you read this, you move a small portion of it to your pinky and direct whatever energy you have master to that point.
Consciousness is the illusion.
Conscious, if it can be equated to consciousness, is really only useful to say if someone is awake or asleep and even that is obfuscated when considered subjectively.
Then could clearing your awareness have the same meaning as clearing your conscious?
If so, the supposed subconscious is the periphery of awareness.
Edited by teknix (11/09/20 07:52 PM)
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teknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
#27030716 - 11/09/20 07:58 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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99 people standing around 1 guy sleeping, all 99 people agree the guy is unconscious, so he is objectively unconscious.
So how much weight can you put into objectivity, when it is the guy sleeping that has more relevance to explain his current state than the 99 people standing around him.
All 99 observers are in Plato's Cave looking and trying to make sense of the shadows on the wall.
Shatter!
Edited by teknix (11/09/20 08:08 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
#27030823 - 11/09/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: ... Is anything lost if I just use awareness instead of consciousness or conscious?
I move awareness to my pinky and remember the feeling of love and feel it at the location of awareness.
So much simpler. ...
if only. how do you move your awareness? more likely you become aware of what has popped into your field of interest, either physically or associatively.
it is not like moving a lever or steering a car, and would that be any simpler, or just less questioned, i.e. more familiar.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
#27031132 - 11/10/20 06:56 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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i wonder if everyone just walked around naked all of the time if more of the subconscious would be on display.
it's interesting how in psychadelic states people frequently end up naked.
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teknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
#27031137 - 11/10/20 07:01 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Physically it is done through the sense of touch and feeling, as well as focus. Associativity, like empathy for example, is a switch in perspective to not that of your own but that of another. Awareness doesn't have to be fixed to a singular personal perspective, position, or location. Freeing awareness from that fixed perspective is done by eliminating the attachments holding it there, IE the Ego, World Views, Absolutes, etc.
All of it is a choice, even if it isn't always evident. Some choices are made in the periphery, like personal feelings or empathy, but they can also be made directly when brought into awareness.
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teknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
#27031144 - 11/10/20 07:09 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I caught myself wanting to use conscious and subconscious a couple of time when explaining the above, I don't know that anything was lost by omitting it, and it might have just been more of a trained worldview about these phenomena than anything. Commonly used descriptors that had formed an imprint in the brain.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
#27031349 - 11/10/20 10:05 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: I caught myself wanting to use conscious and subconscious a couple of time when explaining the above, I don't know that anything was lost by omitting it, and it might have just been more of a trained worldview about these phenomena than anything. Commonly used descriptors that had formed an imprint in the brain.
exactly, although, associativity is the basic function of memory formation and recall so I think you have it in the wrong group ('perspectives').
my guess is that you had to twist your attitude to look at associativity, and after that twisting, you felt you could call it a perspective, since it is twisted from your normal habits in thinking.
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thealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#27031374 - 11/10/20 10:16 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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memories are able to effect behaviour without being consciously aware of it. the body can remember many things better than consciousness can.
the body is not just a vehicle for the brain to cruise around in. the body literally has a mind of its own.
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teknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
#27031423 - 11/10/20 10:50 AM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
teknix said: I caught myself wanting to use conscious and subconscious a couple of time when explaining the above, I don't know that anything was lost by omitting it, and it might have just been more of a trained worldview about these phenomena than anything. Commonly used descriptors that had formed an imprint in the brain.
exactly, although, associativity is the basic function of memory formation and recall so I think you have it in the wrong group ('perspectives').
my guess is that you had to twist your attitude to look at associativity, and after that twisting, you felt you could call it a perspective, since it is twisted from your normal habits in thinking.
If you are referencing the post above what you quoted then I disagree. Perspectives are definitely associative, when they aren't fixed in place by the ego. The whole idea of "No subconscious" was associated from another perspective that was incorporated into these current chains of thought. It isn't fixed and can change at any given time, and doesn't necessarily quantify the totality of a worldview. I'm just looking at it from that angle, which was presented. Sometimes a person has a singular perspective and won't (either consciously or subconsciously) associate any other perspective.
Perhaps you are using associativity in a way that I'm unfamiliar with, could you define it?
If someone calls their self a materialist they will most likely adhere to that perspective, and look at everything from that perspective, and use that perspective and established evidence, reasoning, logic of that perspective as evidence against anything contrary, rather than looking from the contrary. They are looking for why you are wrong, rather than considering how you could be right.
Edited by teknix (11/10/20 11:00 AM)
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teknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
#27031569 - 11/10/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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But there-in lies the flaw, conscious decisions versus subconscious ones.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
#27031700 - 11/10/20 02:04 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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you can do that with the term associative, however I am not talking about that - I tried to be clear, but I will lock it down more:
when I say associative I am talking about the inter-engram links and the intra-engram links.
the pattern of activated cortical neurons in a moment is inter-linked by a chemical spatial event capturing phenomenon specific to those neurons that are stimulated at the same time - a thalamus/basal ganglia mediated loop may be involved in sustaining stimulation of the engram until it is fixed into memory (many small synapses are built which increase in size and strength each time they are stimulated - enabling habit or rote learning).
later when a similar pattern/engram becomes activated, it will tend to stimulate the activity of associated neurons from the previous similar engram. The closer the match the more fully the previous engram becomes re-excited.
and so on, it just keeps going on and on - one mental object linking to the next with sensation all as a continuum.
Essentially: things that happen together in a moment are associated forming a memory (engram), and similar things that are encountered later become associated (engram matching generating recollection).
it is a real thing that happens at the cortical neuronal level, enabling both memory(engram) fixation and recollection of what is similar, or happened at the same time.
but yes, association can certainly be used in other ways in many fields of study.
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