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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27010253 - 10/29/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I like that your explanation does point towards the expansion of consciousness in a different way, it could be of utility to people that want to disassociate any sort of mysticism with an expanding conscious.

That's why there are so many different teachings (and practices) about the topic of expanding awareness, different ways of describing the same thing :smile:

Your perspective offers a more materialistic view that might provide skeptics something more digestible if they are on a journey to expand consciousness, being that A lot of current teachings and methodologies are encrusted in mysticism.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27010263 - 10/29/20 12:17 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
It seems RGV will use linguistics to argue subconscious isn't a thing and that will always be true depending on your perspective. We label things out of convenience, and to ease communication between individuals. We generally agree on the meanings of things to accomplish this.

One persons perspective the subconscious could be the little devil and angel on the shoulder
Another could see it as your heartbeat or liver enzymes
And further someone could view subconscious as how you make the sun rise every day or how you made a "big bang"
And of course someone could share RGV's viewpoint that there is no subconscious

So the real argument is where to agree or where to agree to disagree about what each individual in this thread feels like they define subconscious

Everyone's opinion is a real feeling based on their perspective. Subconscious is an abstract idea so everyone can be correct in that regard. Their experiences are true





Yeah, that is definitely true, when dealing with the subjective nature of experience, many fingers are used to point at the same thing in a different way. From Zen, to Mahayana to Theravada.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27010275 - 10/29/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Red, When you accessed the 4th and 5th dimensions, do you think you were already there and just became conscious of it?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27010577 - 10/29/20 02:46 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Red, When you accessed the 4th and 5th dimensions, do you think you were already there and just became conscious of it?



these are perceptions I had and which I expected to some extent, probably from having had them before.

my sensations of the 3rd dimension were sustained (faded less quickly) providing a space I could move in that included exits from the moment into the previous moments which had stacked up in the same space.
ERGO 4D experiencing while stoned.

the odd thing about it was a feeling of bursting perpendicular to what is, revealing the stacked frame contents, alongside the current frame of experiencing in the now.

the 5th is more vague to describe except to say that the relationship of 90 degrees was applied to all that was being perceived in 4, and this opened into pure geometry using 4d colors and fragments - not very clear. but that is all.

I do not think this is a place - it is an experience that can be had in any place where you stack up moments in mind - it is very not flat.  Separate from that, I have been very very flat on salvia, and I think that was from being 4d and 5d and looking at 3d and calling it flat.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27010618 - 10/29/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Well, wherever you are is a place and time.

I didn't know if it was a trip you had or if it was an exploration of awareness without external substances/stimuli?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27010625 - 10/29/20 03:16 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

both of course


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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27010670 - 10/29/20 03:39 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

ordered  Edward F. Edinger's book :thumbup::thumbup: Edinger was associated with the C.G. Jung Center in NYC and he was a brilliant expositor of C.G. Jung's theories as applied to religion. In the case of Ego and Archetype: Individuation and the Religious Function of the Psyche Dr. Edinger applies the Jungian understanding of ego versus Self to some of the major mythic images in the Book of Genesis. The earlier publications included wonderful color plates as well as the B&W pics to help illustrate such notions of the Garden of Eden as a sort of mandalic vessel, a 'Great Round' or maternal archetype, womblike, which is the unconscious matrix of the psyche from which ego-consciousness (self-conscious awareness) emerges.

Not to over-burden, but a Great follow-up book is Erich Neumann's The Great Mother: An Analysis of the Archetype. It would flesh out some of Edinger's ideas on the primordial psychic matrix depicted mythically in biblical notions as well as his own Jungian concepts. I have often referred back to a diagram of the Great Mother from Neumann's book to show me where some of the women in my life probably connect to this multifaceted archetype.  https://www.amazon.com/Great-Mother-Analysis-Archetype-Neumann/dp/0691166072




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Ξ³Ξ½αΏΆΞΈΞΉ ΟƒΞ±α½Ο„ΟŒΞ½ - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #27011030 - 10/29/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Marcos, these are very dedicated works, resolving how man is made in God's (the archetypes) image. I especially adore how the tarot works with (mostly the same) archetypes achieving a well rounded approach to associated classes of symbols and how they relate in the tarot scheme; but I do not see that much of the work holds water beyond being a good story. One that carries forward whatever religious fetish you wish to discover.

You could say Jung's is panspiritual work, sort of pleasing everybody much of the time.

I like his work for that.

My ego is that annoying part of me which keeps defending itself even when not attacked, and it keeps going into the kitchen and staring at the fridge whether I feel like it or not, it denies looking at women that way, and lies about it. It is an interesting object lesson in conditioning  (like associate 2 things repetitively, and they stick together as one memory reflex).

My ego is not below a super ego while suspended over top of an id (aka subconscious) and even with all the archetypical promotion, (I love the stories,) no part of my mind is collective (unconscious), it's acquisitive, and trying to find something interesting, while trying to stay in tune with what's happening around me, and sometimes lazy.

Markos, I am not undermining your story, I know why you have it and agree that it is useful, and has been very helpful to others. It touches on many of the most interesting things in existence, and tries to make sense of them. No harm in that. You do not need to defend your chosen scheme from me.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27011956 - 10/30/20 11:43 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
It seems RGV will use linguistics to argue subconscious isn't a thing and that will always be true depending on your perspective. We label things out of convenience, and to ease communication between individuals. We generally agree on the meanings of things to accomplish this. ...




.    Indeed, that people rationalize and engage in self deception, is well known to anyone with, with the least bit of intelligence & curiosity as to what makes folks tick. That there is a vast scientific literature, on the subject of peoples' tendency to distort truth/reality to maintain the illusion of consistency, is well known to those with a professional interest in the subject. As you say 'self deception' vs using 'unconscious' when it comes to terminology may be purely a matter of what the user thinks will 'persuade a jury', if you permit mixing metaphors.
.    In the mental maneuvering involved in such things as the Nazi's treatment of Jews in the concentration camps during the day, and their relationships with their kids and wives in the evening, again we find a form of 'disassociation', that has been explored in the literature. That some type of mental compartmentalization is occurring is again obvious.

.    When it comes to the point that: the "subconscious isn't a thing", this is well recognized by all who understand nominalization, & that english is a noun based rather than a verb based language. Science is faulted for being reductionist, but of course language itself has been so from the beginning, and must always remain so. Abstraction is both what lends mathematics power, as well as what confuses the literal minded, and in general generates as much confusion as clarity.
.    There are of course additionally different levels of abstraction, and a great spread among people, as to how deeply they can follow the distinctions involved. No one gets upset about this when it comes to mathematics. But when it comes to beating people up because they are burning flags; that a related mental error is occurring totally escapes all those involved.
.  Likewise that most arguments, belief systems, and often theories, also involve similar categorical errors, often escapes those who are more inclined to use words as weapons than fists as weapons.
.  As regards belief systems of course religion provides the most obvious examples of attachment to belief systems, as well as the related effort to control dogma, and even the use of language, as the history of heresy shows.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27012001 - 10/30/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

you may be onto something, but I don't think it is out enough.
this banana needs a bit more peel removed before I can taste the fruit of what you mean.

yes people use words differently.

yes religion relies on specific arcs of meaning for words that may not mean that in other circumstances.

is that the crux, or did that mean something else. There are enough words there that it could mean the opposite of my interpretation.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27012050 - 10/30/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Say one defines subconscious as a thing that doesn't exist but is a sensation or scapegoat for what humans feel acts beneath the surface of ordinary consciousness.

I think talking about the subconscious or lack thereof is important but we have to agree to talk on the same terms or at least see each other's definitions as is.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27012268 - 10/30/20 02:33 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you may be onto something, but I don't think it is out enough.
this banana needs a bit more peel removed before I can taste the fruit of what you mean.

yes people use words differently.




.  The only reason to change words is if clarity is improved by the change IMO, assuming we aren't talking fiction. Or more importantly if one's swticheroos did enable one to do anything approaching what Milton Erickson could do,...
And what (you ask) could he do? , well there are books and books about that and pages and pages on the web.

for example:
https://hypno4change.blogspot.com/2013/09/how-talking-about-tomato-plants-helped.html

the first 5-6 paragraphs here serve as an introduction:
up to the sentence:
"After these "tomato talk" sessions the man's condition improved DRASTICALLY."

after that continue to:
https://www.ericksoninstitute.it/en/38/palliative-care/one-day-at-the-time/
for an example

for a good general introduction to him
http://www.invisiblecows.com/Ericksonian.html

Many who use a lot of drugs regularly, like Leary, Mckenna, Lilly, and James Oroc, come up with elaborate theories as regards Mind & reality. Few amount to anything lasting, or of much interest to anyone except a few fans.

Stanislav Grof, with his Holotropic Breathwork, seems the only exception; and incidently he wrote: "Realms of the Human Unconscious: Observations from LSD Research"

However even Grof's work is of minimal impact compared to Erickson's.

To theorize about the mind, based just on subjective experience, while ignoring Erickson and his documented results is pretty much a recipe for irrelevance. Although from posting and arguing on a message board this may not be obvious, especially to those who confine their feedback to what is available from such a source.

Grof did base his work on hundreds of clients and workshops. So it is evidenced based and most definitely not mainly subjective, and does have both relevance and documentation, and practitioners, but is not mainstream due partly to the commitment involved and / or possibly its goals.

Relevant to all of this are Erickson's views on theories of psychology, as much of this is included in the general introduction to him at
http://www.invisiblecows.com/Ericksonian.html
I have skipped a lot of what would be unnecessary copy and pasting, which does not mean that it does not pertain intimately to the topic, along with the many case histories also readily available.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27012309 - 10/30/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

If you are unconscious (sleeping in this case) and you are dreaming (lucidly), are you conscious of the dream?

Unconscious seems antithetical to conscious, but there is an overlap here . . .


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #27012425 - 10/30/20 04:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I think you are asking me to read http://www.invisiblecows.com/Ericksonian.html and comment so I will do that, later on.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27012436 - 10/30/20 04:38 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
If you are unconscious (sleeping in this case) and you are dreaming (lucidly), are you conscious of the dream?

Unconscious seems antithetical to conscious, but there is an overlap here . . .



this is the most interesting thing:
I think that when you are dreaming you are not actually unconscious.
Dreaming occurs for a few seconds in the transitions either while surfacing from sleep, or sinking into sleep. In a lab - REM is observed and brain activity shifts.

At home I usually awaken, and go what was that!??

in salvia terms, the dreaming state is nearly identical to level 4&5 visionary and immaterial which are waking states. and sleep is like level 6 - amnesia or unconscious.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27012498 - 10/30/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Conscious and unconscious defy any objectification within the current framework, for sure. (being that the onlookers could agree on unconsciousness of the subject but the unconscious subject might be obliged to disagree)

But that isn't to say the same is true about subconscious?


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix]
    #27012801 - 10/30/20 07:53 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

"Subconscious" and innate instinct are the same or?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #27012817 - 10/30/20 07:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I would think that the adrenaline pumping from fight or flight instinct would be considered subconscious most generally, as well as the fear that invoked it.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: teknix] * 1
    #27012913 - 10/30/20 09:19 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Subconscious, unconscious, even conscious confuses the shit out of me when most people use them, because they are often thrown around like spaghetti on a wall.

E.g. when the conscious awareness recognises a consciousness, it doesn't take into account subconscious reward systems and therefore we aren't conscious of what the background is that moves from composing to completing.

I don't think we can stop that fof response, but we can learn to handle it and deal with it without it taking over and leaving you with shaky knees in the same spot.

I still get nervous quiet substantially, I was called by a radio talk show and had my heart racing for the 5 minutes I was on hold, I felt it, sincerely the pounding engine that is my heart, but it didn't stop me, I took the call, I said my words, I did what I set out to.

I can only speak for myself on this but whatever unconscious, subconscious, precocious stuff that makes me work, I've noticed that sometimes I have reduced hesitation, and it's usually because I'm paid to do it.

Whatever we want to call the part of ourselves we are not as in control or aware of, mine is one that appears to run on a simple reward system of if I get something out of it, I'll do it.

Without that, hesitation runs wild.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27013097 - 10/30/20 11:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I think you are asking me to read http://www.invisiblecows.com/Ericksonian.html and comment so I will do that, later on.




.  Not exactly - I am suggesting that the tack you are taking, with your notions of how you think, others should think about the subject is unlikely ever to lead to results you will find satisfying.
.    Rather than just state this dogmatically, I have made the effort to substantiate why this seems to me, to be (obviously ) the case, once one considers the surrounding factors.
.  I think there is a lot of very relevant data that pertains to the subject, that tends to either be ignored, or not known of by those who have participated in this thread, or the other threads where you have pursued the same objective. Therefore I have provided links, (to a tiny fraction of the data) for anyone sincerely interested, in the subject, to evaluate for themselves, if they so desire.
.  Also mentioned is something about subjectivity and evidence, but there is no point in repeating, or spelling out all of the nuances...when scrolling is so easy for anyone who really gives a shit.


Edited by laughingdog (10/30/20 11:36 PM)


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