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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" * 1
    #26971177 - 10/05/20 07:46 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

To the discussion about "when a baby develops consciousness"

in 2013 a science reporter declared that (flawed) evidence pointed to 5 months old as the age when a baby has consciousness.

This is now being rolled back, all the way back to a reasonable definition of consciousness as a thing separate from awareness.

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/consciousness-goes-deeper-than-you-think


https://ejop.psychopen.eu/index.php/ejop/article/view/1388/pdf 

Towards the end he reveals that there is no sub-consciousness - I am no longer alone in this, although he blurs the clarity of it by extrapolating that since consciousness is so pervasive, it is everywhere.

I think that is because he is disconnecting memory from the question "what does it feel like?"
because if there is no memory - it never feels LIKE anything.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Edited by redgreenvines (10/05/20 07:57 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26971359 - 10/05/20 09:39 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

.  Even if you get all us non professionals to agree with you on this little internet forum, it will do nothing to refute the vast literature on the use of hypnosis, or the thousands helped by it. 
.    Academics could debate how to define 'subconscious' and 'unconscious', and what is the 'depth' of the dreaming mind vs, say the optical processing modules in the brain and so on, for years to come, and get paid to do so.
.    So I'm mystified as to what you hope to gain by repeatedly attacking oft used terms in psychology, here.

In particular Theodore X. Barber already made a living from a position attacking hypnosis:
    Hypnosis: A Scientific Approach (1969)
    LSD, Marihuana, Yoga and Hypnosis (1970)
    Biofeedback and Self-Control (1971)
  etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_X._Barber

.    And yet thousands are helped by hypnosis which makes use of the terms: 'subconscious' and 'unconscious',  and hypnosis is also accompanied by a vast literature containing all sorts of evidence, which also uses these terms.

.  for anyone interested this is a good starting point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_H._Erickson
.  Erickson is possibly the most respected psychologist of the last 100 years, with dozens maybe hundreds of books about him, and his methods, by professionals in the field and his work already available. He also published material himself. This being the case my going into details is pointless. To anyone interested, happy reading and enjoyment of the many videos and websites & free .pdfs, addressing the matter for free.

.    To assess your view point folks here would have to digest a lot of this material, and actually observe hypnosis in action, and possibly experience it. Outside of this forum are many such professional people already. Some in private practice, some at universities, and some teaching courses.
.    If I had a theory about art or painting I would go to artists or painters; if ideas about cooking to chefs, etc. ....
.    Who would go to an internet forum if they I wanted to learn hypnotic pain control for serious dental work?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: laughingdog]
    #26971616 - 10/06/20 06:09 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

ok maybe some people need subconscious, and a few need god too, maybe that's why we have a pope.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26972353 - 10/06/20 03:06 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26972361 - 10/06/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Consciousness, in one idiom, is a continuum from Collective Unconscious to Personal Unconscious which becomes Preconscious and Subconscious (the liminal transition to self-conscious awareness) or Consciousness proper (which has degrees of concentration) and thence to Superconsciousness with rare Gamma-wave dominant states named by various spiritual conditions (Samadhis, Jhanas, Hitbodedut, etc).

The contents of past experiences which ordinarily lie unknown to Consciousness and which are typically unavailable to memory exist in what is generally called the (Personal) Unconscious. These contents are accessible by various techniques like narcosynthesis (narco-hypnosis), classic hypnosis at a requisite depth sufficient to elicit age regression. Psychedelics and psychedelic psychotherapy elicit material from the Unconscious that has formerly been unavailable to conscious awareness, as does Holotropic breathing and long-term personal analysis (I've undergone 8.5 years with 3 Jungians), but so do psychotic episodes. Art is a natural elicitation of unconscious material and the so-called "royal road to the unconscious" is dreaming.

Consciousness being THE mystery of existence can only be spoken of by metaphors, myths, idioms, and analogies. It is a non-physical verity without any material parameters and yet the use of constructs I suggested have practical applications in different domains.

As I've no doubt mentioned before, Edward Edinger's book Ego and Archetype presents the clearest Jungian description I've read anywhere of the Genesis myth of Adam and Eve as the birth of the ego (and self-consciousness) from the matrix of the Unconscious Self (the Garden). He draws on the children's art that was recorded by Rhoda Kellogg in her book Analyzing Children's Art which illustrates how the random scribbles of very young children begins to morph as lines cross. Intersecting lines eventually become circled. Either arms or legs begin to emanate from spherical 'bodies' or rays which frequently become 'Suns' both primitive mandalas (symbols of the Self). Now Kellogg was not a Jungian herself but the phenomenology of her examples parallels Jungian notions of a Collective Unconscious revealed in art.

There is the work of developmental psychologists and object relations people who have mapped out the progression of a separate ego that requires at least 6 months of life outside the womb to develop. These developments are well known and the various milestones of object permanence, object constancy, the embodied ego, etc. are well documented. Transcendence involves a wider more inclusive identity containing earlier stages but adding additional levels. The embodied ego yields to a mental ego, best typified for example by the 'terrible twos' when baby learns the word/concept "No." Compared with life immediately following birth as a "buzzing blooming confusion," and no psychi  differentiation between baby and environment, the growth of consciousness can be observed ifirst n behavioral changes and later in language.

It's ALL consciousness. I am panpsychic and panspiritist in this respect but against a metaphysical Ground of Pure Consciousness individual beings develop or at least transmit varying degrees of self-aware consciousness by their communication to other contingent beings. I know we've been down this road before, but the idioms I've used has practical application and demonstrable results.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26972409 - 10/06/20 03:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

thanks Markos - ordered  Edward F. Edinger's book


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26976423 - 10/09/20 04:09 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

A beautiful quote. :sun:

Quote:

Consciousness may never arise—be it in babies, toddlers, children or adults—because it may always be there to begin with. For all we know, what arises is merely a metacognitive configuration of preexisting consciousness. If so, consciousness may be fundamental in nature—an inherent aspect of every mental process, not a property constituted or somehow generated by particular physical arrangements of the brain. Claims, grounded in subjective reports of experience, of progress toward reducing consciousness to brain physiology may have little—if anything—to do with consciousness proper, but with mechanisms of metacognition instead. - Bernado Kastrup

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/consciousness-goes-deeper-than-you-think




I believe this would be applied to living things from bacteria to trees and ants. I can't see anyone suggesting rocks, silicate minerals, plastics or synthetic fabrics etc. would share this property.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #26976493 - 10/09/20 06:03 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think there is local consciousness without the local infrastructure for memory, so I am not so quick to add bacteria, and would not be inclined to include plants which occasionally seem to remember but actually have no infrastructure to solve problems by recalling what was similar among a vast store of previous experiences.

for bacteria and plants, if the solution is not solved by gene expression, tropism, or hormone, (even if mediated by a mycelial network which can carry hormone  as well as ions) then it is not solvable. these branches of life are not conscious per se, they do not think using any form of ideation, but they are full of living energy and activity.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26976501 - 10/09/20 06:10 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

It's like when an Australian Rainforest Tree is damaged, it responds by releasing hydrogen cyanide.

Maybe consciousness alone is just a thing we overhype, and that the real deal of humanity is the metacognitive configuration of this pre-existing consciousness.

Maybe we just take the word consciousness too literally, applying it far too sparingly, when in reality it's the metacognitive configuration that deserves a sparing application. Imo.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #26976502 - 10/09/20 06:12 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

totality is what you are thinking of, like gaia, it is an idea that contains all consciousness and life, but it is not conscious.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26976510 - 10/09/20 06:23 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Why even use the word conscious if every living thing already has consciousness.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #26976773 - 10/09/20 10:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

every living thing does not have it. but you know, we could drop the word conscious and just use the term mind, and bacteria do not have mind. also trees do not have mind. they are not subject to mental disorder or mental confusion or mental delight.


--------------------
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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26982809 - 10/13/20 06:25 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

do you think your mind extends beyond your perceptions?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26982934 - 10/13/20 08:29 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

it collapses into perceptions from chaotic continua.
mostly it is immensely more active than just perception, but the perceptions are the firmer footholds in the seething mass of reality.


--------------------
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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26983363 - 10/13/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

do fractals drive the mind, or does the mind drive the fractals?

both?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26983442 - 10/13/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

the mind is all about highlighting changes by cancelling the unchanging background signals. In this way we easily find and follow new objects as they appear and can follow central important ideas as in a conversation, for instance.

if mind cannot do a figure ground separation then mind will work with the overall totality and let the strongest association prevail in the next cycle and no object optimization will be effective.

a rhythmic progression such as a fractal can command interest as an object or central idea, but basically anything left over after the background noise is quashed slides into the center of our attention (i.e. the changes).

when I meditate, I often have to restart, as my central focus gets cancelled out naturally as if it were an unchanging background signal - i.e. a persisting central idea over time becomes background noise.

Note the same effect occurs when you close your eyes after looking at a high contrast image, then the image appears in reverse in your mind... that mental reverse image is the cancellation action in progress, and is part of some endless search for anything new which may not be background.


--------------------
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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26984439 - 10/14/20 02:48 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

A variety of traits come in spectrums.

Maybe we don't use the word consciousness liberally enough. Before this I've always thought all living things are conscious including trees as they respond to environmentos stimuli.

If we want to have clarity on what consciousness is then we have to conform to a single definition, and that bit is tough.

Even if we keep consciousness in the HUMAN ONLY domain, we can put on top of that meta-consciousness as the refined senses.

There might not seem a definite point in this post, but it's always been a problem when no one knows what what is or what they're talking about.

Compounded confusion from illusory definitions of confounded words :mad2:


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlinelostintimenspc
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly]
    #26987475 - 10/15/20 06:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I find if I just focus on what I'm thinking, I'm thinking in a way that is kind of subconscious, ie. like a dream manifests.


--------------------
LSD, mushrooms and DMT are different structural levels within the same magically simulated mystery sometimes blandly called 'life'

Your life, your call.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #26987839 - 10/16/20 01:01 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Whatever mechanisms of metacognition are at play, we find a path to success, sometimes with bumps along the way, most times, if not always.

For me, those bumps seem major, but in hindsight they're usually not, and far forgotten quickly by others than I.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Voila! somebody else writing about "No Subconscious" [Re: sudly] * 1
    #26989289 - 10/16/20 10:59 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
but it's always been a problem when no one knows what what is or what they're talking about.

Compounded confusion from illusory definitions of confounded words :mad2:




Sudly it seems you want certainty about something (consciousness & reality) that no one has any certainty about. No wonder it feels frustrating! Here's one of the smartest men on the planet (he just got a nobel prize) discussing the issue. Perhaps you will enjoy his sharing on the subject?



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