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Warrk
Registered: 06/02/17
Posts: 1,644
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It is true that the map is not the territory and that the model is not the reality, just as mathematics is not the phenomenon nor are words the object etc.
When we communicate information we have to be aware that the communication is representational. Everything is metaphor. So "simulation" is a metaphor as is "reality". The 2 are not mutually exclusive though, Campbell in his Theory of Everything is saying that our reality IS a simulation, or can be thought of as a simulation, a virtual reality. What is beyond this reality we may ask? What was before the Big Bang, or before the start of time? We just don't know although there are different ideas but I doubt we can ever test these ideas with experiments.
When we ask what reality is, this is about as deep as we can get and it is no surprise that humanity has been entertaining this for aeons. Even today the jury is not out among physicists as to whether reality is analogue or digital for example, top tier scientist debate the various scenarios and there is no consensus. However, the Simulation Hypothesis is gaining traction and being considered along with all the other models out there.
For me, Campbell's explanation of reality makes sense, it works for me. No doubt it will be further refined as new observations and phenomena have to be accounted for as they arise. Uncertainty is not a bad position to take and at the end of the day the totality of reality is ineffable, it is too complex for our small human minds to comprehend it all, but some stories and some metaphors have a better fit than others.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Warrk] 1
#26973323 - 10/07/20 06:57 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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your first sentence is agreeable, but the big TOE either is a metaphor or is a bad proposal for how reality works, not both - no matter how small you have been made to think your mind is.
if Cambell makes you feel a bit dumb, tell him to FO.
the whole idea of a theory is to explain, why should campbells theory include "it is too complex for our small human minds to comprehend it all". it is screaming through a loophole that is derogatory to its inability to grasp its own suggestion. (like most religions)
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Warrk
Registered: 06/02/17
Posts: 1,644
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rgv you don't make sense to me.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Warrk]
#26973433 - 10/07/20 08:32 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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but campbell does make sense to you because he adds "you don't have to understand, just believe me - I'm very smart - check my bio".
I am not fine with that.
this should be simple to understand.
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Ferdinando
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,695
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I get it
he makes up shit
and people think they can say whatever they want
when the truth is facts and some find out what it all means
people shouldn't get away with that
rather understand that there is truth and it is fact and people understand it
and they are absolutely right
and people who haven't found out what it all means are not necessarily right
I could be wrong
but some aren't
it's a special class of people
or people like bhante
it's an important teaching
before that you say I am not necessarily right
I can think and make theories and try to underastand
and try to find out what it all means
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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Ferdinando
Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,695
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Ferdinando]
#26973444 - 10/07/20 08:38 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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before that you think and listen to what the world is saying
and your main job is to do as good as possible
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Ferdinando]
#26973497 - 10/07/20 09:19 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferdinando said: before that you think and listen to what the world is saying
and your main job is to do as good as possible
this works
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 20 days, 55 minutes
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: but campbell does make sense to you because he adds "you don't have to understand, just believe me - I'm very smart - check my bio".
I am not fine with that.
this should be simple to understand.
may be belief precedes understanding. sometimes people don’t understand an idea intellectually, but they can still respond to that idea through non-intellectual pathways.
sometimes one has to believe in "impossible things" to facilitate the existence of these impossible things into mundane reality. belief is extraordinary. understanding is mundanity.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
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just as often, if not much more often, belief gets in the way of understanding
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Kickle]
#26973536 - 10/07/20 10:00 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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may be it depends on the idea being facilitated?
if i believe i can sprout wings and fly, could i overcome my understanding of how gravity functions? may be well defined physical laws can't be transcended with belief, but what about things in physical reality that are less absolute?
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Kickle
Wanderer
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I think beliefs preclude understanding but cannot take the place of understanding. That's why the scientific method utilizes a hypothesis (belief) which it then tests (experiment) to come to understanding (results). Then with the results, one ensures they can reproduce the same results over and over and are not mistaking their understanding.
Belief is good in this way IMO and great discoveries have been made with nothing but belief at their core. But in my experience most people find a belief and stop at step 1 (hypothesis) while pretending it's understanding. This means that the other steps never happen and no sincere understanding ever emerges.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Malkuthian
Fetus
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Kickle]
#26973566 - 10/07/20 10:19 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's perhaps a little of topic but I think that this could be of interest:
There is a scientist (Nick Boström) who has written what he calls the simulation argument, which says somethin along the lines of this:
There are 3 possible futures: 1. Humanity will die before we make detailed simulations of our evolution 2. Humanity will choose to not make detailed simulations of our evolution 3. Humanity will choose to make detailed simulations of our evolution
If 3 is our future, then we can assume that we wont run 1 simulation, but endless simulations to get statistical accuracy, and test various parameters. And if each simulation will contain a "copy" of our world, the number of simulated individuals, and simulated worlds, will be A LOT more than the actual world (1).
Thereby implying that if 3 is correct, the odds are vastly in favor of us living in a simulation.
There is actually a Joe Rogan Episide with Nick Boström were this is discussed:
Some other links: https://www.simulation-argument.com https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Malkuthian]
#26973809 - 10/07/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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everything that is happening is possible. we do not need to believe in impossible things unless we want to follow the red queen:
Quote:
"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 20 days, 55 minutes
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: but campbell does make sense to you because he adds "you don't have to understand, just believe me - I'm very smart - check my bio".
I am not fine with that.
this should be simple to understand.
if i recall correctly, this is how Thomas Campbell’s whole theory in the My Big TOE trilogy is laid out for the audience - he encourages the reader to NOT take his word for any of his theories - he lays out a hypothesis, and encourages the individual to test them out themselves, to not fall into belief traps.
Quote:
To focus our discussion of belief traps, let me give you a more precise and clear understanding of what I mean when I use the words “belief” and “knowledge.” Beliefs may be cultural, religious, scientific, or personal. Belief is generated and necessitated by ignorance. If you know for sure, belief is not required. In that case, you have real knowledge. Knowledge is derived from knowing what is true. If your apparent knowledge is false, you only believe that you know. In this situation, belief is masquerading as knowledge. Belief posing as knowledge is pseudo-knowledge, not real knowledge.
…
Everyone understands the terms “cultural belief” and “religious belief", but some may be wondering what is meant by scientific belief and personal belief. Scientific belief is the belief that the larger reality and all truth must be solely defined by, and limited to, objective, repeatable-on-demand, consistent, PMR hard-science measurements. This is the narrow view of the scientific method cast as an exclusive PMR-only dogma. Though this belief holds true and is wonderfully productive for a certain subset of reality, it does not hold in a bigger picture that contains consciousness – much as classical mechanics fails in a bigger picture that contains very high velocities (which requires relativistic mechanics) and very small sizes (which requires quantum mechanics).
…
Many feel compelled to either believe or disbelieve all information they come in contact with and quickly pass a judgment on everything accordingly. Such a process leaves little room and little time for actual knowledge and shows no particular interest in truth. For these individuals, pseudo-knowledge is good enough, especially if it also happens to reduce anxiety and be widely accepted. This approach to information is unfortunate and produces a tendency to jump to conclusions based upon erroneous feel-good assumptions. The result of understanding, appreciating, and accepting the limits of your knowledge is that you neither believe nor disbelieve much of the information that initially lies beyond your knowledge. Judgment should be suspended until sufficient data are collected. That method of approaching information is called open-minded. The quality (rigor) of the conditions and processes that define “sufficient” is dependent upon how scientific your exploration is. Good science produces actual knowledge whereas bad science produces only pseudo-knowledge.
--Book 1, Section 2, Chapter 19
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 20 days, 55 minutes
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: everything that is happening is possible. we do not need to believe in impossible things unless we want to follow the red queen:
Quote:
"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
impossible need not mean nonsense.
the Red Queen has some brilliant nonsense.
when reality appears nonsensical, with a willingness to experiment, it can become perfectly intelligible.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
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what of Campbell's TOE did you test out for yourself?
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 20 days, 55 minutes
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Re: The Simulated Universe [Re: Kickle]
#26973871 - 10/07/20 01:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: I think beliefs preclude understanding but cannot take the place of understanding. That's why the scientific method utilizes a hypothesis (belief) which it then tests (experiment) to come to understanding (results). Then with the results, one ensures they can reproduce the same results over and over and are not mistaking their understanding.
Belief is good in this way IMO and great discoveries have been made with nothing but belief at their core. But in my experience most people find a belief and stop at step 1 (hypothesis) while pretending it's understanding. This means that the other steps never happen and no sincere understanding ever emerges.
i wonder why more people don't have a willingness to test their hypotheses?
why are people unwilling to make certain core beliefs unmalleable?
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 20 days, 55 minutes
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: what of Campbell's TOE did you test out for yourself?
i’ve challenged my consciousness, testing the furthest limits of what should be impossible and have experienced: astral travel, medium abilities, bilocation, precognitive dreams, and remote viewing. i’ve walked thru walls, died and came back to life, seen the birth of a universe thru a black hole, wrote a book that predicted the future, and built a simple quantum computer that gathers interdimensional information.
Joseph Campbell says maybe a mystic is a scientist from inner space.
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
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. If you go to youtube you can find endless interpretations as to the various meanings of "The Matrix" movie which is about simulation vs reality. Seems that by now there are maybe 4 movies in the series. Then you can read the comments, and more comments as the hours pass. . I clicked on one video that was supposed to give the hidden secret -- can you guess what is was? All the vast majority of mankind are 'sleeping' and under the power of Satan! but you have to watch for awhile before the secret is revealed. . Seems to me once again we see that conviction is more likely to signal delusion than insight.
"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell
We see the same thing now with science vs politics. Because science is subtle, takes its time, and explores options, and reserves judgement while collecting more data and experimenting and learning; but the masses want instant certainty, and the politicians only want power and influence and so pander to the lowest levels of society.
So I am in no hurry to think embracing some new theory, is a better way to expand consciousness, than say "don't know mind" . https://duckduckgo.com/?q=don%27t+know+mind&t=h_&ia=web
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: what of Campbell's TOE did you test out for yourself?
i’ve challenged my consciousness, t... i’ve walked thru walls, died and came back to life, ....
. But what you all haven't done is realized that if you yourselves are a simulation, the only thing left to do is laugh at yourselves.
. Would assume that is Zen 101 .............
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