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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26974259 - 10/07/20 05:56 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Right now, I have no reason not to trust the doctors who treated the victims.




You may after you read this https://geographicalimaginations.com/2018/04/24/gas-masques/
There also appears to be numerous eyewitness accounts of the presence of chlorine :shrug: it's a long read but appears factual.

Quote:

But that’s simply a drive-by smear.  The main work is done by Fisk’s doctor, whose words are seemingly sufficient to rubbish or, if you prefer, cast doubt on all those other testimonies.  He was not even was in the clinic when the casualties were brought in (‘I was with my family in the basement of my home three hundred metres from here on the night’, and Fisk himself admits that the doctors who were on duty that night were all in Damascus).





This was an interesting read as well
https://geographicalimaginations.com/tag/douma/


This was also worth watching which sort of ties in with the claims in the story above


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26974588 - 10/07/20 09:59 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=26237&LangID=E

UN Commission of Inquiry on Syria

Quote:

Following the July release of a special investigation into Idlib and surrounding areas, the present report focuses on violations happening away from the epicentres of large-scale hostilities during the first half of 2020.

Nearly a decade into the conflict, enforced disappearance and deprivation of liberty continue to be instrumentalized by almost all parties to instil fear and supress dissent among the civilian population or simply as extortion for financial gain. The report documents a multitude of detention-related violations by Government forces, the Syrian National Army (SNA), the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham and other parties to the conflict.

In the case of Government forces, the recent cases of enforced disappearance, torture, sexual violence and deaths in custody amount to crimes against humanity, the report concludes. The continued use of these abhorrent practices also exacerbated tensions with communities in southern Governorates, such as Dar'a and Suwayda', and led to further clashes in the reporting period.

In Afrin and surrounding area, the report documents how the SNA may have committed the war crimes of hostage-taking, cruel treatment and torture, and rape. In the same region scores of civilians were killed and maimed by large improvised explosive devices, as well as during shelling and rocket attacks. Men, women and children died while buying groceries in crowded markets. Looting and appropriation of private land by the SNA was rife, particularly in Kurdish areas. Not only individuals have come under attack, but also whole communities and cultures. Satellite imagery (annexed) shows how invaluable UNESCO heritage sites have been destroyed and looted.






If you want to really depress yourself this is the full UN report

https://undocs.org/A/HRC/45/31


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26974644 - 10/07/20 10:49 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Just in case you missed it in that link https://geographicalimaginations.com/tag/douma/

Quote:

The materials in the leaked draft paint a far more frightening picture of chemical weapons use in eastern Ghouta than had been previously reported. And they assert without qualification that Syrian forces and their allies were responsible, rebutting repeated denials by Mr. Assad’s government and his backers in Russia and Iran.




The missing pages from the draft report
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/50-united-nations-commission-doc/865546bdd15e4bb35f11/optimized/full.pdf#page=1


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26974648 - 10/07/20 10:59 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Chlorine is one of the most reactive elements. It will react with almost any substance. If chlorine was used, there will be evidence of its use in the environment. Chlorinated hydrocarbons and chloride salts coating metal surfaces. While chloride salts are common, chlorinated hydrocarbons do not occur in nature to any appreciable amount.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (10/07/20 11:02 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26974661 - 10/07/20 11:08 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Right now, I have no reason not to trust the doctors who treated the victims.



You may after you read this https://geographicalimaginations.com/2018/04/24/gas-masques/
There also appears to be numerous eyewitness accounts of the presence of chlorine :shrug: it's a long read but appears factual.

Quote:

But that’s simply a drive-by smear.  The main work is done by Fisk’s doctor, whose words are seemingly sufficient to rubbish or, if you prefer, cast doubt on all those other testimonies.  He was not even was in the clinic when the casualties were brought in (‘I was with my family in the basement of my home three hundred metres from here on the night’, and Fisk himself admits that the doctors who were on duty that night were all in Damascus).






Can you point out what piece of the article you thought was compelling (I'm not being dismissive, I may have just missed it)?  I read a number of reasons why they didn't find solid evidence ("the relevant area is controlled by the main suspects, who will be tempted to cover up the evidence”).

His criticism of Robert Fisk is interesting, but Robert Fisk isn't the only one who doubted the chemical attacks:
Quote:

When it came to Douma, the Russians weren’t the only ones who were skeptical, at least initially, that chemical weapons had been used. The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a U.K.-based outfit that leans toward the opposition but whose reporting network inside the country is usually seen as most authoritative by the international media, noted the day after the attack that people had died in Douma through suffocation, but couldn’t say whether chemical weapons had been used.
.
Three months after the attack, the OPCW released its interim report into what happened in Douma. The report found no evidence of organophosphorus nerve agents like sarin either at the site or in samples from the casualties
.
If chlorine gas canisters killed all those people in the apartment building on April 7, what do we make of Anas Sobheha, the nurse I met at that makeshift emergency ward in Douma, who told me that he’d seen no evidence of a chemical attack?




Quote:

Stable Genius said:
This was also worth watching which sort of ties in with the claims in the story above




How does this tie in?  Russia bombed an empty underground bunker/hospital - I'm not disputing that.

I haven't read your next two posts, so I'll do that next.  Meanwhile, let me know you thought was the most compelling argument from your article of a chemical attack.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26974664 - 10/07/20 11:11 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Intentionally bombing a hospital is a war crime. You’re literally making excuses for war crimes.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26974679 - 10/07/20 11:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=26237&LangID=E



This appears to have nothing to do with Douma (did I miss it)?

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

The materials in the leaked draft paint a far more frightening picture of chemical weapons use in eastern Ghouta than had been previously reported. And they assert without qualification that Syrian forces and their allies were responsible, rebutting repeated denials by Mr. Assad’s government and his backers in Russia and Iran.






What does "without qualification" mean?

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
The missing pages from the draft report
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/50-united-nations-commission-doc/865546bdd15e4bb35f11/optimized/full.pdf#page=1



What argument did you find compelling proving a chemical attack?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26974682 - 10/07/20 11:31 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Maybe the part where all the victims smelled like chlorine.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
    #26974685 - 10/07/20 11:34 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Intentionally bombing a hospital is a war crime. You’re literally making excuses for war crimes.



What excuse did I make for war crimes?  I asked what this has to do with proving a chemical attack in Douma - maybe you can tell me that.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
    #26974688 - 10/07/20 11:38 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Maybe the part where all the victims smelled like chlorine.



On 7 April 2016?  Read the topic of this thread.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26974693 - 10/07/20 11:40 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Are you conceding that Assad has used chlorine against his citizens? Yes or no


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26974694 - 10/07/20 11:40 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you point out what piece of the article you thought was compelling





That the Dr Robert Fisk refers to wasn't at the hospital.
Also he never interviewed any Drs whilst he was in Douma.


Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
How does this tie in? 




I think it was that the report also lined up Russia's involvement and an increase in in the bombings? I might have to watch it all again.


Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Meanwhile, let me know you thought was the most compelling argument from your article of a chemical attack.




The missing pages from the interim report as it describes further attacks using chlorine https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/50-united-nations-commission-doc/865546bdd15e4bb35f11/optimized/full.pdf#page=1


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26974698 - 10/07/20 11:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Intentionally bombing a hospital is a war crime. You’re literally making excuses for war crimes.



What excuse did I make for war crimes?  I asked what this has to do with proving a chemical attack in Douma - maybe you can tell me that.




You’ve made excuses for Russia’s attacks on hospitals in the past. I believe your excuse was “nobody was killed.”


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26974699 - 10/07/20 11:44 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=26237&LangID=E



This appears to have nothing to do with Douma (did I miss it)?





Well I think it does as the violence against kurds continues? Didn't he win?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26974703 - 10/07/20 11:47 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you point out what piece of the article you thought was compelling





That the Dr Robert Fisk refers to wasn't at the hospital.
Also he never interviewed any Drs whilst he was in Douma.


Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
How does this tie in? 




I think it was that the report also lined up Russia's involvement and an increase in in the bombings? I might have to watch it all again.


Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Meanwhile, let me know you thought was the most compelling argument from your article of a chemical attack.




The missing pages from the interim report as it describes further attacks using chlorine https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/50-united-nations-commission-doc/865546bdd15e4bb35f11/optimized/full.pdf#page=1




That is a pretty damning document. I really don’t understand why falcon has spent two years, in multiple threads, obsessed with discrediting these accounts.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26974736 - 10/08/20 12:21 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you point out what piece of the article you thought was compelling



That the Dr Robert Fisk refers to wasn't at the hospital.
Also he never interviewed any Drs whilst he was in Douma.



Fisk spoke with the head of the hospital a few days after the attack.  Do you think the head of the hospital wouldn't know anything about a chemical attack if it happened?

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
How does this tie in? 



I think it was that the report also lined up Russia's involvement and an increase in in the bombings? I might have to watch it all again.



I think I missed anything related to Douma on 7 Apr 18.  :shrug:

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Meanwhile, let me know you thought was the most compelling argument from your article of a chemical attack.



The missing pages from the interim report as it describes further attacks using chlorine https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthelper/50-united-nations-commission-doc/865546bdd15e4bb35f11/optimized/full.pdf#page=1



On 7 Apr 18?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
    #26974737 - 10/08/20 12:21 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Are you conceding that Assad has used chlorine against his citizens? Yes or no



Not on 7 Apr 18 (see thread topic).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26974740 - 10/08/20 12:23 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=26237&LangID=E



This appears to have nothing to do with Douma (did I miss it)?





Well I think it does as the violence against kurds continues? Didn't he win?



Did it say Assad has anything to do with the violence?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
    #26974744 - 10/08/20 12:24 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
That is a pretty damning document. I really don’t understand why falcon has spent two years, in multiple threads, obsessed with discrediting these accounts.



If you don't want to talk about the thread topic, start a new thread.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26974751 - 10/08/20 12:29 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Are you conceding that Assad has used chlorine against his citizens? Yes or no



Not on 7 Apr 18 (see thread topic).




So you’re more upset that he was falsely accused (according to you) of one attack than you are by all the other attacks he is responsible for. Such a strange hill to defend.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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