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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Ice9]
#28430509 - 08/12/23 03:35 AM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said: The COCs formed cannot be made from household bleach. Even industrial strength bleach, 9% sodium hypochlorite %w/w, is not strong enough to form those compounds. Nor would bleach explain the concentrations of COCs detected.
Source?
Quote:
Ice9 said: I am glad you show your bias in assuming that merely because sodium hypochlorite is the chemical used in bleach, you just assumed it was a convenient explanation for the types and concentrations of COCs detected. Coming from a chemist, it cannot explain their formation. A more potent chlorinating agent is required.
It's not me that said it. It's the chemical weapons inspectors who likely have a lot more knowledge than you.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28430518 - 08/12/23 04:02 AM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Hypochlorite is only a chlorinating agent in limited circumstances. Its normal function, such as when it is used to bleach clothing is as an oxygenating agent. Also, there is no gaseous form and its solid salt form is only stable combined with inert fillers. It is almost always in an aqueous solution, so it would be almost impossible for it to chlorinate a large area.
There are also pretty specific side products produced when hypochlorite chlorinates ketones and alcohols
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koods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
#28430523 - 08/12/23 04:15 AM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
In yet a second location, the OPCW report concludes that the cylinder hit the rooftop at over 130 mph in a perfectly horizontalorientation!Itthenpenetrated the roof and fell an additional 3 meters to the 昀氀oor in the room below. Upon hitting the 昀氀oor, the cylinder then took a lateral bounce of 3.5 meters and landed on top of a bed at a height of 0.6 meters above the 昀氀oor. Newton’s laws of mechanics simply did not explain the scene, so the OPCW report invented its own laws of mechanics! In spite of all this observable and analyzable evidence, the OPCW declared that this scene was instead actual evidence of a chlorine cylinder attack. Th
None of the authors appear to have any background in the physical sciences. Are they assuming this cylinder came to a complete stop before penetrating the floor and falling another 3 meters? They seem to be claiming that an object that has fallen 3 meters could not bounce 3.5 meters laterally. That is ridiculous.
Quote:
TOXICOLOGY AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGY: HOW COULD 40 OR MORE CIVILIANS HAVE COLLAPSED AND DIED IMMEDIATELY DUE TO CHLORINE GAS WHILST EXHIBITING PROFUSE DISCHARGE OF FOAM?;
Inhalation of high concentrations of chlorine absolutely causes profound pulmonary edema and foaming at the mouth and death within minutes
Quote:
Oedema fluid, usually frothy, is secreted from the bronchi, and may leak from the mouth and the nostrils.
This report pisses me off. It is full of ridiculous errors. This is particularly egregious:
Quote:
Other anomalous witness testimony included reports of large numbers of deceased in basements including the one at Location 2: this was considered unexplained in the Original Interim Report because there was no clear mechanism by which gas concentrations might have built up to dangerous levels in basements
Quote:
Because chlorine gas is heavier than air, it will sink to low-lying areas and increase the risk of exposure there.
https://www.cdc.gov/chemicalemergencies/factsheets/chlorine.html#:~:text=Because%20chlorine%20gas%20is%20heavier,the%20risk%20of%20exposure%20there.
Quote:
The FFM Final Report also unscienti昀椀cally discarded other possible benign reactive chlorine sources (hydrochloric acid,
Hydrochloric acid is not a source of reactive chlorine. Hydrochloric acid is hydrogen chloride dissolved in water and I can’t think of a single reaction where the ability of hydrogen chloride to chlorinate an organic compound isn’t spoiled by the presence of water.
Edited by koods (08/12/23 05:33 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
#28430546 - 08/12/23 05:43 AM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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You should write the OPCW and let them know you disagree with their experts.
Just the fact that you think Syria would use chemical weapons knowing the condemnation they would get in a war they were winning is absolutely ridiculous.
More from Admiral West:
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West - "President Assad is in the process of winning this civil war, and he was about to take over and occupy Douma... And just before he goes in and takes it all over, apparently he decides to have a chemical attack. It just doesn't ring true... We know that in the past some of the Islamic groups have used chemicals, and of course there would be huge benefit in them labeling an attack as coming from Assad... It is the only way they've got, actually, of stopping the inevitable victory of Assad.
BBC - "Are you saying there may be faulty intelligence behind all this?"
West - "When I was chief of Defense Intelligence, I had huge pressure put on me politically to try and say that our bombing campaign in Bosnia was achieving all sorts of things which it wasn't. I was put under huge pressure. So I know the things that can happen with intelligence, and I would just like to be absolutely sure."
BBC - "Do you think perhaps it's inadvisable to be stating this so publically given your position and your profile? Do you have concerns about giving credence to the Russians?"
West - "I'm not paying attention to what they're saying to be quite honest."
BBC - "But if you are right and an opposition group, a rebel group, did do this, then the Western nations who have been involved in these strikes have made a massive blunder, haven't they? And the implications are huge."
West - "Well certainly, if that is the case, we've been duped. But these things happen in war. But I think yes, we would have been duped and I think we will learn a lesson from that because if it's done again we'll be a little bit more careful."
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (08/12/23 05:50 AM)
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koods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
#28430548 - 08/12/23 05:47 AM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
As can be seen in this diagram, for the sixteen victims photographed on the ground floor labelled the first floor by the IIT) it was literally only a few steps through the bottom of the stairwell on the ground floor and out the front door – a scenario in which the victims could hold their breath for the few seconds it would take them to run through any lethal gas to get to safety.
These people are idiots. Holding your breath requires having a breath to hold. The first indication of chlorine exposure is likely to be severe irritation of the throat and eyes. You can’t hold your breath and cough uncontrollably and you can’t escape a room when you cannot open your eyes. If one was to suddenly encounter a cloud of concentrated chlorine, you would have to close your mouth, nose and eyes before contact or you would be immediately disabled. I was exposed to a minute amount of chlorine once and it is overwhelming.
These people seem to not understand that taking in one breath of concentrated gas will be fatal.
They’re saying “why didn’t these people who have never experienced being poisoned with chlorine react perfectly to save themselves”
There are never any fatal industrial accidents with chlorine of course because those people are trained to deal with chlorine leaks, right?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/chlorine-accidents-take-big-human-toll/
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Edited by koods (08/12/23 06:26 AM)
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koods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
#28430558 - 08/12/23 05:59 AM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Just the fact that you think Syria would use chemical weapons knowing the condemnation they would get in a war they were winning is absolutely ridiculous.
Well thats not an argument. Syria used chemical weapons repeatedly
This report has video from Douma. Everything is consistent with chlorine or chlorine dioxide
Edited by koods (08/12/23 06:12 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
#28430998 - 08/12/23 01:55 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Ah yes, the video where a kid testified he was told to go to the hospital where he was hosed down with cold water for no apparent reason except a photo op.
Where even a BBC Syria producer admits it was staged.
Dude, you're so gullible.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Ice9
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28431122 - 08/12/23 03:16 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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In order for it to act as an efficient chlorinator, it is converted to hypochlorous acid in solution by addition of acetic acid. This is what I meant by sodium hypochlorite would not give the COCs detected. You would typically need a 10 - 20% hypochlorite solution and add acetic acid to a a slightly acidic pH. This reaction also produces chlorine gas and is dangerous. I did not see any where in the FW linked report how either solid sodium hypochlorite or a solution of it, was supposed to not leave any residue in the gas cylinders (nor how it would get in a gas cylinder). My guess is it was included in the report, despite being totally unfeasible as a source of the COCs, to allow for a common use way of sort of explaining the COCs away to people who are looking for that.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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koods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28431136 - 08/12/23 03:25 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Ah yes, the video where a kid testified he was told to go to the hospital where he was hosed down with cold water for no apparent reason except a photo op.
Where even a BBC Syria producer admits it was staged.
Dude, you're so gullible.
That guy says the attack did happen.
If I was just exposed to chlorine getting hosed down with cold water is exactly what you would want to do
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (08/12/23 03:26 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
#28431147 - 08/12/23 03:30 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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He also says "everything else around the attack was manufactured for maximum effect". He's says we should rely on the OPCW report.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28431158 - 08/12/23 03:38 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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And we should
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Ice9
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28431159 - 08/12/23 03:39 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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I am not relying the OPCW report. Stacks of dead children with no marks on them is pretty fucking clear evidence of a chemical attack. Maybe FW has an alternative explanation? Mass heart attack attack in children?
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Ice9
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28431163 - 08/12/23 03:41 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: He's says we should rely on the OPCW report.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Enlil
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Ice9]
#28431165 - 08/12/23 03:41 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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S.I.D.S.
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koods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#28431171 - 08/12/23 03:46 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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lol so now there was a chemical attack but what is important is figuring out if people were exaggerating? The worst thing about the Syrian war is clearly that some UN inspectors might have been duped by some people who just wanted the world to care what was happening to them. We can’t talk about the genocide until we figure out why that kid got hosed with cold water. Nothing more normal than obsessing about this one incident for five years.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Ice9]
#28431174 - 08/12/23 03:50 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said: I am not relying the OPCW report. Stacks of dead children with no marks on them is pretty fucking clear evidence of a chemical attack. Maybe FW has an alternative explanation? Mass heart attack attack in children?
This was discussed at length before you came into this forum.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
#28431175 - 08/12/23 03:51 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: lol so now there was a chemical attack but what is important is figuring out if people were exaggerating?
No. There was an attack, and what's important is figuring out if it was a chemical attack.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods]
#28431180 - 08/12/23 03:54 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: lol so now there was a chemical attack but what is important is figuring out if people were exaggerating? The worst thing about the Syrian war is clearly that some UN inspectors might have been duped by some people who just wanted the world to care what was happening to them. We can’t talk about the genocide until we figure out why that kid got hosed with cold water. Nothing more normal than obsessing about this one incident for five years.
Hitler wasn't so bad because he didn't put an order to kill jews in writing. Russia isn't attacking civilians because one guy had camo on in that building. Putin isn't a dictator because he talked to a few people who were critical of Putin. The Crimean referendum was fair because people were polled later and said they wanted to be russian.
This is all the same pattern. Ignore the big picture and find one detail that points the other way.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Enlil]
#28431191 - 08/12/23 03:59 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Beautiful strawman argument, Enlil!
Regardless, one detail that points the other way is better than no details that point your way.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Enlil]
#28431195 - 08/12/23 04:05 PM (5 months, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: S.I.D.S.
Sucked in Deadly Substance
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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