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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Ice9]
    #28428663 - 08/10/23 03:56 PM (5 months, 16 days ago)

You're upset about a chemical attack in Douma, as am I. 

The US went into Syria and turned it into a hell hole because we pushed for regime change and wanted to install a puppet government.  There is doubt about who conducted the chemical weapons attack, as outlined in this thread.

I blame the US for pushing the civil war in the first place, you blame Assad, which to me implies you believe what turned out to be unsubstantiated US propaganda.


--------------------
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OfflineIce9
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28428710 - 08/10/23 04:25 PM (5 months, 16 days ago)

Where did I blame Assad?

Also:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
you believe what turned out to be unsubstantiated US propaganda.




Which propaganda would that be that I believe?  I pointed out that you lied about the conclusions of the report you linked.  That's it :shrug:  Somehow you got from me showing how you lied about that, to me believing US propaganda or blaming Assad or some other nonsense that I never said nor ever even IMPLIED.  Showing you to be untruthful implies nothing vis a vis Syria, US, Assad, nor chemical attacks.  Hence, you have repeatedly misrepresented my words.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28428737 - 08/10/23 04:55 PM (5 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
That’s not even close to your original interpretation. Something you probably would have gotten away with if Ice9 didn’t dig a little deeper.



The investigation was manipulated to reach a conclusion that didn't exist.  Seems like what I said, but I'll accept the alternative wording.

If there IS any evidence of a Syrian chemical weapons attack in Douma, please share it and I'll apologize.



*** CRICKETES ***


Quote:

Ice9 said:
Where did I blame Assad?

Also:

Quote:

Ice9 said:
I pointed out that you lied about the conclusions of the report you linked.






You made the claim that what I said was false, but you failed to back it up with evidence.  If you do that, I'll apologize.  But it seems like what I said was absolutely correct.

Quote:

Ice9 said:
Somehow you got from me showing how you lied about that, to me believing US propaganda or blaming Assad or some other nonsense that I never said nor ever even IMPLIED.



First of all, you haven't yet shown that I lied as I just explained.  Second I already thanked you for clarifying your position.


--------------------
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OfflineIce9
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28428787 - 08/10/23 05:18 PM (5 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Quote:

Ice9 said:
I pointed out that you lied about the conclusions of the report you linked.



You made the claim that what I said was false, but you failed to back it up with evidence.  If you do that, I'll apologize.  But it seems like what I said was absolutely correct.




You said the report concluded the attack was a false flag here:  The report does not conclude that. Therefore, what you said was absolutely a LIE.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Ice9] * 1
    #28428832 - 08/10/23 05:40 PM (5 months, 16 days ago)

If Syria didn't launch a chemical attack in Douma, then the OCPW report WAS a false flag, whether the Berlin Group 21 used those terms or not.  :shrug:


--------------------
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OfflineIce9
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28428842 - 08/10/23 05:47 PM (5 months, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Recently released:  The most comprehensive, authoritative account of the OPCW's Douma cover-up scandal to date.  https://t.co/UbJdwRqkgr

[...]


Short summary:  The OPCW inspectors found no evidence of a Syrian chemical weapons attack in Douma on 7 Apr 2018.  It was a false flag.



We should hear more about this soon...



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If Syria didn't launch a chemical attack in Douma, then the OCPW report WAS a false flag, whether the Berlin Group 21 used those terms or not.  :shrug:



Cope harder.


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28428843 - 08/10/23 05:48 PM (5 months, 16 days ago)

Lol it’s just amazing how you twist words to lie


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods] * 1
    #28428867 - 08/10/23 06:02 PM (5 months, 16 days ago)

Again, if one of you shows the report found evidence of a Syrian chemical weapons attack in Douma, I'll apologize.  But if not, my statements were correct.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28429133 - 08/10/23 09:24 PM (5 months, 16 days ago)

:archiebunker:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28429341 - 08/11/23 04:10 AM (5 months, 15 days ago)

respect, Falcon. On point as ever


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #28429472 - 08/11/23 07:57 AM (5 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Again, if one of you shows the report found evidence of a Syrian chemical weapons attack in Douma, I'll apologize.  But if not, my statements were correct.



The report was not intended to produce any findings with regards to chemical weapons attacks. Your statement that this report said the attack was a false flag is an outright lie. The report was a critique of another report.  I have not even had to discredit the report you linked (it's bad) to thoroughly debunk your claims regarding what this report of a report says.  I just have to post your reports conclusions.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Ice9]
    #28429881 - 08/11/23 02:34 PM (5 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
The report was not intended to produce any findings with regards to chemical weapons attacks. Your statement that this report said the attack was a false flag is an outright lie. The report was a critique of another report.  I have not even had to discredit the report you linked (it's bad) to thoroughly debunk your claims regarding what this report of a report says.  I just have to post your reports conclusions.



Yes, the report was a critique of another report, I get that.

As you yourself noted, "conclusions drawn from each of the key evidentiary pillars of the investigation (chemical analysis, toxicology, ballistics and witness testimony,) are flawed and the investigation was manipulated ostensibly to favor a preordained conclusion".

I've already acknowledged they didn't use the word "false flag", as they tried their best to keep politics out of the report.  But when you present flawed and manipulated conclusions to get to the results you are after (that the US was justified to bomb Syria), that's a false flag.

I am often criticized for not paraphrasing, and now I'm criticized for paraphrasing.  It really doesn't matter, the point is that the original report was flawed and manipulated to reach a predetermined conclusion.


--------------------
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28430150 - 08/11/23 06:45 PM (5 months, 15 days ago)

Probably the preordained conclusion is they were sent to investigate a chemical attack and that’s probably what they expected to see.

Even in the worst case that they were going to call it a chemical attack regardless of the evidence, you haven’t actually gained any insight, or determined if it was or was not.


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Edited by koods (08/11/23 06:49 PM)


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: koods] * 1
    #28430201 - 08/11/23 07:11 PM (5 months, 15 days ago)

The claim that the OPCW report was intended to reach predetermined conclusions does not make the OPCW report a false flag in the context of the report you linked.  That is because in the critique, they do not prove that chemical weapons were not used.  In fact, they have a whole section on the high levels of COCs found at the attack site (chlorinated organic compounds) and the report that FW linked had this to say about them:

Quote:

These alterations worked to highlight the possibility that chlorine gas was the source of the detected COCs. As Whelan notes in the ‘Grave Concern’ email (Appendix 2a), this ‘singling out chlorine gas as one of the possibilities is disingenuous’ and could leave the reader of the report with a distorted impression that chlorine gas was the likely source of the COCs that had been detected.




The argument here is that the high levels of COCs where not from chlorine gas but from a chlorinating agent such as:
Quote:

The statement in paragraph 8.3 [Redacted Interim Report] in the final conclusions “The team has sufficient evidence at this time to determine that chlorine, or another reactive chlorine-containing chemical, was likely released from the cylinders” is highly misleading and not supported by the facts. The only evidence at this moment is that some samples collected at Locations 2 and 4 were in contact with one or more chemicals that contain a reactive chlorine atom. Such chemicals could include molecular chlorine, phosgene, cyanogen chloride, hydrochloric acid, hydrogen chloride, or sodium
hypochlorite (the major ingredient of household chlorine-based bleach). Purposely singling out chlorine gas as one of the possibilities is disingenuous. …




Let me requote that important part for you FW

Quote:

samples collected at Locations 2 and 4 were in contact with one or more chemicals that contain a reactive chlorine atom. Such chemicals could include molecular chlorine, phosgene, cyanogen chloride, hydrochloric acid, hydrogen chloride, or sodium hypochlorite (the major ingredient of household chlorine-based bleach).




Your OWN hand chosen report here states explicitly that a chemical containing a reactive chlorine species was present at these attack sites.  This would be the very definition of a chemical attack.  You really should read all the way through what you link.
:batlol:


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Ice9] * 1
    #28430210 - 08/11/23 07:17 PM (5 months, 15 days ago)

I would also note that the predetermined outcome the Berlin Group report disputes is that chlorine gas (molecular chlorine) was the chemical agent in the gas cylinders.  FW would have everyone believe that the predetermined outcome of the OPCW report was that chemical weapons were used.  In fact, the Berlin Group report does not dispute that chemical weapons were used in this attack in their conclusions, they instead dispute that chlorine gas as the chemical agent was possibly, even probably incorrect.


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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Ice9]
    #28430254 - 08/11/23 07:47 PM (5 months, 15 days ago)

Chlorine dioxide is a less regulated substance that would be just as devastating.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Ice9]
    #28430389 - 08/11/23 09:49 PM (5 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
The claim that the OPCW report was intended to reach predetermined conclusions does not make the OPCW report a false flag in the context of the report you linked.  That is because in the critique, they do not prove that chemical weapons were not used.



Nor do they prove chemical weapons were used.  If the US said they were used without having supporting evidence, that's a false flag.

Quote:

Ice9 said:
In fact, they have a whole section on the high levels of COCs found at the attack site (chlorinated organic compounds) and the report that FW linked had this to say about them:

Quote:

These alterations worked to highlight the possibility that chlorine gas was the source of the detected COCs. As Whelan notes in the ‘Grave Concern’ email (Appendix 2a), this ‘singling out chlorine gas as one of the possibilities is disingenuous’ and could leave the reader of the report with a distorted impression that chlorine gas was the likely source of the COCs that had been detected.




The argument here is that the high levels of COCs where not from chlorine gas but from a chlorinating agent such as:
Quote:

The statement in paragraph 8.3 [Redacted Interim Report] in the final conclusions “The team has sufficient evidence at this time to determine that chlorine, or another reactive chlorine-containing chemical, was likely released from the cylinders” is highly misleading and not supported by the facts. The only evidence at this moment is that some samples collected at Locations 2 and 4 were in contact with one or more chemicals that contain a reactive chlorine atom. Such chemicals could include molecular chlorine, phosgene, cyanogen chloride, hydrochloric acid, hydrogen chloride, or sodium
hypochlorite (the major ingredient of household chlorine-based bleach). Purposely singling out chlorine gas as one of the possibilities is disingenuous. …




Let me requote that important part for you FW

Quote:

samples collected at Locations 2 and 4 were in contact with one or more chemicals that contain a reactive chlorine atom. Such chemicals could include molecular chlorine, phosgene, cyanogen chloride, hydrochloric acid, hydrogen chloride, or sodium hypochlorite (the major ingredient of household chlorine-based bleach).






No, the important part is "the major ingredient of household chlorine-based bleach."

Quote:

Ice9 said:
Your OWN hand chosen report here states explicitly that a chemical containing a reactive chlorine species was present at these attack sites.  This would be the very definition of a chemical attack.



No, chemicals from household bleach do not prove a chemical attack.


--------------------
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28430392 - 08/11/23 09:54 PM (5 months, 15 days ago)

That's not a false flag.


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #28430431 - 08/11/23 10:44 PM (5 months, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Quote:

samples collected at Locations 2 and 4 were in contact with one or more chemicals that contain a reactive chlorine atom. Such chemicals could include molecular chlorine, phosgene, cyanogen chloride, hydrochloric acid, hydrogen chloride, or sodium hypochlorite (the major ingredient of household chlorine-based bleach).



No, the important part is "the major ingredient of household chlorine-based bleach."

Quote:

Ice9 said:
Your OWN hand chosen report here states explicitly that a chemical containing a reactive chlorine species was present at these attack sites.  This would be the very definition of a chemical attack.



No, chemicals from household bleach do not prove a chemical attack.





:doublefacepalm:

The COCs formed cannot be made from household bleach.  Even industrial strength bleach, 9% sodium hypochlorite %w/w, is not strong enough to form those compounds.  Nor would bleach explain the concentrations of COCs detected.  I am glad you show your bias in assuming that merely because sodium hypochlorite is the chemical used in bleach, you just assumed it was a convenient explanation for the types and concentrations of COCs detected.  Coming from a chemist, it cannot explain their formation.  A more potent chlorinating agent is required.


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Ice9]
    #28430473 - 08/12/23 01:15 AM (5 months, 14 days ago)

Hypochlorite in most conditions decomposes into sodium chloride and the active species is oxygen


--------------------
NotSheekle said
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Edited by koods (08/12/23 01:17 AM)


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