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Enlil
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27085656 - 12/12/20 12:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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People don't always agree. They weighed both sides and came to the best conclusion they could.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Enlil]
#27085676 - 12/12/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Was there another side to the evidence I'm not aware of, or was this just a "we can't show this because it might help the Russian narrative"?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27085679 - 12/12/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah. Just read the report.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27085689 - 12/12/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Couple of things
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Four whistleblowers have since come forward to challenge the OPCW’s alterations of the initial report. The organization’s response has been to defame them as disgruntled employees
Maybe they are? It wasn't a majority of the inspectors that raised concerns. Did Bellingcat have realistic criticisms of the 4? They shouldn't be above scrutiny.
Quote:
And he wasn’t the only one. In October, OPCW’s founding director general José Bustani was blocked by the US, UK, and France from addressing the UN Security Council – the same countries that launched missile strikes against Syria without waiting for the Douma investigation
What I find inconsistent about this is that Syria controlled that area, they could have taken inspectors in immediately but it didn't happen. Why?
Quote:
Western governments are trying to politicize the OPCW and, “in fact, turn it into an obedient tool to realize their military and political agenda,”
Syria could have used the OPCW to prove their case and avoided this mess. They chose not to. I wonder why?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Enlil]
#27085722 - 12/12/20 12:59 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Was there another side to the evidence I'm not aware of, or was this just a "we can't show this because it might help the Russian narrative"?
Yeah. Just read the report.
We already know the investigators were kept out of the report writing, so there weren't really two sides debating this. It was one side who took the investigators' conclusions and changed them.
Let's look at one example from the report:
Quote:
Based on the levels of chlorinated organic derivatives, detected in several environmental samples gathered at the sites of alleged use of toxic chemicals (Locations 2 and 4), which are not naturally present in the environment, the FFM concludes that the objects from which the samples were taken at both locations had been in contact with one or more substances containing reactive chlorine.
Apart from the Schedule 3.B.17 chemical triethanolamine and a Schedule 2.B.04 chemical known as “AmgardV19”, the presence of which was satisfactorily explained, no other scheduled chemicals listed in the Annex on Chemical to the Chemical Weapons Convention, or their degradation products, were detected in the environmental samples analysed.
We now know that the chlorine levels detected were so low, they could have come from household cleaners. Two sides to the argument, or just one, where this information was removed?
Of course, you're free to pick out any other point from the report that you believe is more conclusive to discuss. Most of it already has been discussed above.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27085777 - 12/12/20 01:38 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Based on the levels of chlorinated organic derivatives, detected in several environmental samples gathered at the sites of alleged use of toxic chemicals (Locations 2 and 4), which are not naturally present in the environment, the FFM concludes that the objects from which the samples were taken at both locations had been in contact with one or more substances containing reactive chlorine.
Apart from the Schedule 3.B.17 chemical triethanolamine and a Schedule 2.B.04 chemical known as “AmgardV19”, the presence of which was satisfactorily explained, no other scheduled chemicals listed in the Annex on Chemical to the Chemical Weapons Convention, or their degradation products, were detected in the environmental samples analysed. We now know that the chlorine levels detected were so low, they could have come from household cleaners. Two sides to the argument, or just one, where this information was removed?
So chlorine and a chemical agent were detected. If Syria had secured the area and let the inspectors access could the levels would have been?... higher? That's a pretty good reason to leave a war crime scene unsecured whilst buying time squabbling with the U.N over safe access.
So in summary, the chlorine detected could have come from 'household cleaners' or maybe a tankful of chlorine left to degrade in the atmosphere, is that a fair statement?
Allowing the chlorine and the AmgardV 19 to degrade to undetectable levels would probably help the Russian narrative, that's not very fair. That's not what 'bona fide friends' do as per the OPCW correspondence which is being flagged as some type of conspiracy. Maybe it's these type of actions that make the Syrian/Russian narrative so hard to swallow?
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Enlil
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27085778 - 12/12/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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We don't know that. Someone says that. The people who made the findings had all of the information and made their conclusions. You don't agree, but you're a layman.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
#27085817 - 12/12/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Stable Genius said: If Syria had secured the area and let the inspectors access could the levels would have been?... higher? That's a pretty good reason to leave a war crime scene unsecured whilst buying time squabbling with the U.N over safe access.
Let's be clear, it wasn't Syria or Russia that wouldn't let the inspectors in, it was the UN itself.
Quote:
Stable Genius said: So in summary, the chlorine detected could have come from 'household cleaners' or maybe a tankful of chlorine left to degrade in the atmosphere, is that a fair statement?
Allowing the chlorine and the AmgardV 19 to degrade to undetectable levels would probably help the Russian narrative, that's not very fair. That's not what 'bona fide friends' do as per the OPCW correspondence which is being flagged as some type of conspiracy. Maybe it's these type of actions that make the Syrian/Russian narrative so hard to swallow?
Sure, I can't dispute that. It's one of those "what if's" that Enlil insists shouldn't be discussed in the election thread.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#27085830 - 12/12/20 02:02 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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In all honesty I doubt we have anywhere near enough facts to make anything clearer, but it's worth discussing
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius] 1
#27085840 - 12/12/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Stable Genius
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27085862 - 12/12/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Back to it.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:Let's be clear, it wasn't Syria or Russia that wouldn't let the inspectors in, it was the UN itself.
From your original post about this point
Quote:
Russia and western allies vote against each other’s proposals . Russia vetoed a US resolution creating a new independent investigative mechanism for chemical weapons attacks in Syria, arguing that it would become a propaganda tool of the west.
A Russian counter-proposal, establishing an investigative mechanism but leaving final decisions on whom to blame for chemical weapons to the security council, failed to win enough votes in the council.
I fail to see how NOT allowing inspectors access immediately is less important than arguing over how the information should be handled. That's an effective way to delay an investigation while the chlorine dissipates.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
#27086015 - 12/12/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Stable Genius said:
Back to it.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:Let's be clear, it wasn't Syria or Russia that wouldn't let the inspectors in, it was the UN itself.
From your original post about this point
Quote:
Russia and western allies vote against each other’s proposals . Russia vetoed a US resolution creating a new independent investigative mechanism for chemical weapons attacks in Syria, arguing that it would become a propaganda tool of the west.
A Russian counter-proposal, establishing an investigative mechanism but leaving final decisions on whom to blame for chemical weapons to the security council, failed to win enough votes in the council.
I fail to see how NOT allowing inspectors access immediately is less important than arguing over how the information should be handled. That's an effective way to delay an investigation while the chlorine dissipates.
But Russia (and Syria) are the ones who wanted the OPCW investigation team to go into Syria immediately with people chosen from all sides, and Russia even offered the OPCW team protection, because they knew the US had already accused Syria of a chemical attack and were looking for a reason to strike. The US, on the other hand, wanted to set up a Joint Investigative Mechanism that was independent of Russian influence and would take up to a month to set up. Ultimately, the OPCW decided to go in before the UN vote, but the UN still delayed them by forcing them to wait for the United Nations Department of Safety and Security approval, not Syrian or Russian approval.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (12/13/20 05:03 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27086218 - 12/12/20 06:19 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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And then they went in and found that a chemical attack had occurred.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Enlil]
#27086261 - 12/12/20 06:40 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27086354 - 12/12/20 07:44 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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The report states their findings.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Enlil]
#27086369 - 12/12/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Those finding have been discussed above.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27086415 - 12/12/20 08:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes. They found that a chemical attack occurred
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Enlil]
#27086512 - 12/12/20 11:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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And the inspectors disagreed with management's rewrite.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27086526 - 12/12/20 11:41 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Doesn't matter. Not everyone is going to agree. The OPCW investigated and made findings. You can say they got it wrong, but where is the report from another credible organization to support that?
You've been skirting around it, but the only way OPCW got it wrong was if one of two things happened:
1. They were incompetent; or 2. They conspired to lie to the world about what happened.
You're really claiming the second, but you don't like calling it a conspiracy. It's nonsense, though. OPCW is going to throw away years of credibility just because what? They don't like Russia? It's ridiculous.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Enlil]
#27086550 - 12/13/20 12:21 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Doesn't matter. Not everyone is going to agree. The OPCW investigated and made findings. You can say they got it wrong, but where is the report from another credible organization to support that?
Wikileaks published the original engineering assessment.
Quote:
Enlil said: the only way OPCW got it wrong was if one of two things happened:
1. They were incompetent; or 2. They conspired to lie to the world about what happened.
You're really claiming the second, but you don't like calling it a conspiracy. It's nonsense, though. OPCW is going to throw away years of credibility just because what? They don't like Russia? It's ridiculous.
They admitted they didn't want to print the engineering assessment because it would play into the Russian narrative. What more do you need?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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