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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? * 1
    #26966772 - 10/03/20 01:41 AM (24 days, 3 hours ago)

On 7 April 2018 according to CNN:
Quote:

At least 48 people died Saturday in Douma, the last rebel-held town in Eastern Ghouta, the White Helmets rescue group and the Syrian American Medical Society charity group said in a joint statement.

"The evidence points toward yet another chemical attack by the regime," said Maja Kocijancic, spokeswoman for European Union Foreign Affairs and Security Policy.

US President Donald Trump described the attack as "sick" and criticized Russian President Vladimir Putin and Iran for supporting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. Trump threatened that there would be a "big price to pay" for the deaths.

But the Syrian government and its key ally, Russia, vehemently denied involvement in Saturday's attack. Instead, they accused rebels in Douma of fabricating the chemical assault claims in order to hinder the army's advances and provoke international military intervention.



There was a good discussion on the Shroomery about this right after it happened.

Officials who questioned the motives and the timing of the chemical attack (the one thing that would bring Western intervention into Syria at a time when Syria was close to winning the war) were quickly shut down from mainstream news, such as this British General:



Shortly afterwards, I posted an article about whistle blowers saying the OPCW report left out a lot of critical information.

Then after the OPCW management did damage control control on the whistleblower report, more whistle blowers came out and agreed the OPCW report left out critical information (for example, that the chlorine they found was in such tiny amounts that it may have come from household bleach).

Aaron Mate just testified to the UN about this OPCW Syria cover-up.

Here is a Wikileaks report about a memorandum from one of the inspectors.  It's not long, but some key takeaways are that the OPCW removed the findings that:
- The two cylinders that were found on the site of the alleged attack were more likely manually placed there than dropped from a plane or helicopter
- Experts concluded that there was no correlation between the symptoms of the victims and chlorine exposure
- That only one inspector was allowed to help draft the final report

The author of the memorandum states that he was the one originally tasked with analysis and assessment of the two cylinders found on the scene of the alleged chemical attack. This was a task he undertook “in the understanding [he] was clearly the most qualified team member, having been to the location in Douma and because of [his] expertise in metallurgy, chemical engineering (including pressure vessel design), artillery and Defence R&D”. He continues: “In subsequent weeks I found that I was being excluded from the work, for reasons not made clear”.

He also states "Once the final report was released on the 1st of March 2019, it became clear that the conclusions of the report had changed significantly in the hands of the new “core” team that assembled it into its final form"

In my next post, I'll address the points that Nonagon Infinity brought up here.


--------------------
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Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26966781 - 10/03/20 01:51 AM (24 days, 3 hours ago)

While I'm writing my reply to Nonagaon Infinity's post, here's what I believe to be a great summary video of the scandal:



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26966907 - 10/03/20 04:59 AM (24 days, 10 minutes ago)

The following is a response to this post.


Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
The first two sources I linked were primary sources directly from the French and British governments, respectively (I'd hardly call a primary source "mainstream media").



Your first report from the French was published BEFORE any western inspectors ever went into Douma.  Your second is the OPCW report that is being questioned by the scandal above.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
The third article I linked was a highly biased source from Russia claiming that the video evidence of the attack was staged.



Just so you know, we once played a game here to see if people could find more fake news from RT.com or an American mainstream news source.  No one could find any fake news from RT.com (though I'm sure there's some).  Biased doesn't mean fake.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
The last article I linked was from a highly reputable news source which has demonstrated multiple times over the course of its lifespan to have neutral political bias and to be highly factual when reporting.



I talked about that here.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
This is starting to sound like a conspiracy theory, Falcon, and if it were really happening the way the article wants readers to believe, it would be a huge conspiracy: one that involves collaboration between the US, England, France, and the Syrian Rebels to all collectively agree to silence the truth on this one attack.



Do you mean kind of like WMD's in Iraq?

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
There have been multiple other chemical weapon attacks under Assad's regime outside of Douma that are well documented without any such whistle-blowing or anything. Why would these four political organizations have an interest in covering up this specific attack, but not the others? The article doesn't really offer any suggestions on that front, and that's because I don't think it would make any sense.



I don't know if anyone is claiming earlier chemical attacks didn't happen.  This one appears to have been faked.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Additionally, the article you cited here refers to another whistleblower on this issue named Ian Henderson, who is, to my knowledge, still alive and free. Why would these conspirators who allegedly want to silence the truth about what really went down on April 7th, 2018 in Douma pose some sort of threat to this "Alex" dude, but not to Ian Henderson?



Have you ever heard of whistle blowers named Assange, Snowden, Manning?

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Dude, do you ever research the reliability of your sources? Sometimes, it looks like you just search for any source that will support your narrative. TheGrayzone is the side project of Max Blumenthal, a former writer for Alternet, which has a pretty bad reputation as far as bias and factual reporting go. Alternet is extremely biased, and has a long history of twisting facts in their journalism.



All sites that do investigative reporting about the Government get belittled so people won't listen to them.  Let's just concentrate on the facts.  We KNOW this is being discussed right now with the UN and we have Wikileaks releases about the details.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
This is actually very timely, because the United Nations just asked Aaron Mate to testify about the scandal, and what he said was extremely damning.




Maybe you find it damning, but to me, it sounds like a conspiracy theory. Here are the points he made (the numbering is his, not mine)

1. The author claims that the original fact-finding report done on the attack was secretively re-edited. He cites two sources, both from wikileaks (another unreliable source of information often linked with conspiracy theories).



Wikileaks releases information from other organizations.  Can you name a release that's been misattributed by them?  If any "conspiracy theories" come up, it's from people who incorrectly read the information that gets released.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
He claims that the main difference between the original and the edited report was that the original concludes that the attack possibly may have not been the result of chemical weapons. He then claims "Though unstated, the reader could easily infer from this that the militants who controlled Douma at the time had staged the scene to make it falsely appear that a chemical attack had occurred," and provides no evidence for such a staged attack.



That's exactly what the reader might infer if they were given the truth.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
2. He cites a toxicology report (again, from wikileaks :rolleyes:) which claims that some of the victims had injuries that were inconsistent with chlorine gas. I read the "toxicology report", Falcon. It's not a toxicology report at all. Rather, it's a statement that a toxicology report was made, but that it was suppressed by the OPCW management. The report says nothing about how many victims were examined, the methods used for examination, or even the conclusions. This is not a primary source of information, it's pure narrative.



Are you referring to the meeting summary of the meeting with the toxicologists?  Or the email where they wrote "I find the summary in the minutes misleading that the other side in the end offered a conclusion with two possibilities:  real chemical attack or staged.  All we "gave" the experts were open-source videos and photos - so their insight was (and had to remain) limited.  That the possibility of a staged attack was raised is part of required scientific skepticism but was in my opinion mainly fueled by the fact that the circumstances of death for the victims do not match chlorine rather than corpses arranged for propaganda purposes.  Regarding the observed symptoms I would write that they were not matching the chemicals listed by you but would remove "other known toxic gases" and rather put that no obvious candidate chemical causing the symptoms could be identified."

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
3. Next, he cites an email discussion between one of the investigators and OPCW management (again from, guess where: wikileaks), which is a rather odd read. Apparently, the report states that chlorine was found in the canisters examined at the site of the attack. The investigator argues that the specific concentration of chlorine found in the canisters examined samples from the attack, claiming that if readers were to know the concentration, they might hesitate to conclude that this was an attack. Additionally, she requests that the report eliminate the use of the word "trajectory" to describe the canisters, which seems to suggest that they were launched or dropped on the scene. Both of her requests are rejected by management in the conversation, but it doesn't sound like the purpose of the rejection is a cover-up just from reading the email.



Maybe not a "cover up", but clearly a discussion for how to make it sound like a chemical attack without lying.  Kind of like WMDs in Iraq.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
4. He cites the third whistle-blower's protests and claims of censorship, as though this is somehow evidence of censorship.



So you're saying you think the whistle blower wrote a letter of protest about censorship, even though nothing was censored?  We KNOW what was censored:
- That the cylinders found on the site of the alleged attack were more likely manually placed there than dropped from a plane or helicopter
- That experts found no correlation between the symptoms of the victims and chlorine exposure
- That the levels of chlorine were so low they may have come from household cleaners

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
5. He claims that the US sent "officials" to persuade the Douma investigators to conclude that the event was a chemical weapon attack. No officials are named, no source cited. I think this one can easily be dismissed.



I strongly disagree.  It simply means those officials still need to be named.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
6. Pointed out that this third, unnamed whistle-blower intervened, preventing the report from being published since he believed it was secretly doctored. Again, no source cited, and the fact that this whistle-blower intervened is not evidence of a cover-up.



The fact that they left out important information may not seem like a "cover up" to you, but it did to the inpectors.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
7. Claims that after this intervention, the OPCW hired a "core team" to take over the investigation from then onward. Again, all sources are from wikileaks. The reason the "core team" was brought on was because the original fact-finding phase of the investigation was over. The author (along with the wikileaks source) seems to be arguing that the "core team" is evidence of a cover-up simply because only one of these new team members was actually in Douma for the original fact finding investigation. That's not evidence of a cover-up, Falcon.



If the original investigators doing the inspection disagree with the conclusions of the "core team" who took over the report, you don't see the problem?

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
8. Re-states point #1, that a doctored report was published which, rather than concluding that the victims were possibly not victims of a chemical weapon, instead stated that it was reasonable to conclude that a chemical weapon attack occurred in Douma that day.



Again, the inspectors weren't certain there was a chemical attack.  How then is it reasonable for the "core team" to conclude there was?

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
9. Claimed that eye-witness testimonies that contradicted the conclusion that chemical weapons were used were omitted from the report in favor of testimonies which supported that conclusion, and that most of the eye-witnesses interviewed weren't even in Syria on the day of the attack. No source cited, which means we can dismiss it as make-believe.



No, you don't just dismiss it.  You check it out to see if it's true.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
10. Claims that the gas cylinders didn't come from a military aircraft, citing yet another source from wikileaks. This contradicts geographic and eye-witness evidence, though, which I already cited in a previous comment.



Eyewitness reports from people who hate Assad contradicted an engineering assessment that says they're wrong.

Why wouldn't you include the engineering assessment in the final report???

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
I've mentioned a few times that all of the sources you cited have problems with bias, but you'll notice I've avoided stating what kind of bias until now: all of the sources you cited are generally known to be far left-wing biased media platforms. Alternet, Grayzone, Wikileaks, and CounterPunch are all left-wing media sources, and they have a clear narrative behind this conspiracy theory. This chemical weapon attack was used as justification for the subsequent bombing of Douma by the Trump administration. If true, this conspiracy theory would show that, in fact, the Trump administration had no justification for bombing.



Exactly.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
It's really weird to see you support this conspiracy theory, because you typically defend Trump.



You've got me wrong.  I typically defend the truth, whichever side it's from.  Trump DID screw up by bombing Syria.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Yes, Assad's regime really did commit a chemical weapon attack in Douma



Only if you don't trust the inspectors.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
In conclusion, you really need to check your sources, Falcon.



My sources are the ones that have proven me right over and over again.  This particular case is still being investigated, as evidenced by the hearing at the UN, and I believe it will show I'm right, like the others.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Edit: I just realized after posting that this whole conspiracy theory reminds me an awful lot of the 9/11 conspiracy theory that George W. Bush's administration was directly responsible for the attack on the World Trade Center.



Not me.  It reminds me a lot more of the WMD in Iraq.

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Indeed, Bush's administration capitalized on the attack by using it as justification to launch a war in the Middle East, but that doesn't mean that the attack itself was staged or planned by the US government.



At least we can agree on this.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #26967062 - 10/03/20 09:07 AM (23 days, 20 hours ago)

“Inspectors A and B are not whistle-blowers. They are individuals who could not accept that their views were not backed by evidence. When their views could not gain traction, they took matters into their own hands and breached their obligations to the Organisation. Their behaviour is even more egregious as they had manifestly incomplete information about the Douma investigation. Therefore, as could be expected, their conclusions are erroneous, uninformed, and wrong.”

https://www.opcw.org/media-centre/news/2020/02/opcw-independent-investigation-possible-breaches-confidentiality-report

"With respect to Inspector A, he was not a member of the FFM. As described by the investigators, Inspector A played a minor supporting role in the investigation of the Douma incident, and he did not have access to all of the information gathered by the FFM team, including witness interviews, laboratory results, and analyses by independent experts. Although Inspector A’s assessment purports to be an official OPCW FFM report on the Douma incident, it is instead a personal document created with incomplete information and without authorisation.

With respect to Inspector B, after he was selected to be a member of the FFM for the first time, he travelled to Syria in April 2018. He never left the command post in Damascus because he had not completed the necessary training required to deploy on-site to Douma. Inspector B separated from the OPCW at the end of August 2018; however, he continued to approach staff members in an effort to have continued access to and influence over the Douma investigation. The majority of the FFM’s work occurred after Inspector B’s separation, and during the last seven months of the FFM’s investigation (August 2018 through February 2019)."


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26967395 - 10/03/20 12:59 PM (23 days, 16 hours ago)

Yes, I know about that report and I already discussed it in my OP:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
After the OPCW management did damage control control on the whistleblower report, more whistle blowers came out and agreed the OPCW report left out critical information (for example, that the chlorine they found was in such tiny amounts that it may have come from household bleach).




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Enlil]
    #26967736 - 10/03/20 04:39 PM (23 days, 12 hours ago)

My response to this topic is I wasn't there, its old news(to me), you posted 3 posts in a row with WAY too many words and links for me to waste hours going over this shit again (and again...)

You seem obsessed with this, and love to argue debate to the max, perhaps for pleasure or out of boredom, often siding with the 'bad guys'.

When I agree with some of your posts(Qman and some others too) I'm the first to plus one you. But when debate turns to arguments or snide comments, subtle flaming etc., I need to step back. I'm not singling out you or anyone else. I know how to get close to the ban stick without getting whacked, too. Sometimes it's fun. There's plenty of intelligent debate going on but some bs too.

But what do I know? I'm just some 63 year old who has been abusing drugs and/or alcohol on a daily basis for over 45 years. :faded: :pills: :bigjoint:
Perhaps I have some 'wet brain' or cognitive decline going on. These days I prefer to look forward, not backwards. I have to work on addiction and anger issues 1 day at a time.
Did you happen to read why I've been avoiding political discussion?  Sometimes
:bliss: :girlishjoy: is better than

:bomb::heartpump::bomb: . . . :peace:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: vinsue] * 1
    #26967768 - 10/03/20 05:06 PM (23 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

vinsue said:
My response to this topic is I wasn't there, its old news(to me), you posted 3 posts in a row with WAY too many words and links for me to waste hours going over this shit again (and again...)



Aaron Mate briefed the UN about the scandal THIS WEEK, so it's not "old news".

And let me give you the context for this thread.  I said "I'm dismissive of of mainstream news that isn't accompanied with evidence.  You know, like Trump-Russia collusion, like Assad chemical weapons attacks in Douma, like troll farms manipulating our elections with ~$10,000 in political click bait ads, etc."

Nonagon Infinity provided what he believed to be evidence of the chemical attack, so I informed him about the scandal, and he made a VERY lengthy post to try and dismiss the evidence.

Rather than hijack the Trump thread, I decided to move the discussion here to it's own thread.  If it's more reading than you like, you don't have to participate. 

Quote:

vinsue said:
You seem obsessed with this, and love to argue debate to the max, perhaps for pleasure or out of boredom, often siding with the 'bad guys'.



I try to side with the truth over make believe; sometimes that puts me on the "bad guys" side.

Peace, brother.  :peace:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26967949 - 10/03/20 07:12 PM (23 days, 9 hours ago)

From that link you provided Falcon, Aaron Maté said
Quote:

4) Because of other leaks, we now know that this censorship was protested from the inside. The chief author of the initial report, identified by the OPCW as Inspector B, was among those who deployed to Syria for the entire Douma mission. Records show he was also, at the time, the OPCW’s top expert in chemical weapons chemistry.

On June 22nd, 2018 Inspector B protested the secretive redaction in an e-mail expressing his “gravest concern.” I will quote him: “After reading this modified report, which incidentally no other team member who deployed into Douma has had the opportunity to do, I was struck by how much it misrepresents the facts.”




From the link to the OPCW website that Enlil provided
Quote:

With respect to Inspector B, after he was selected to be a member of the FFM for the first time, he travelled to Syria in April 2018. He never left the command post in Damascus because he had not completed the necessary training required to deploy on-site to Douma. Inspector B separated from the OPCW at the end of August 2018; however, he continued to approach staff members in an effort to have continued access to and influence over the Douma investigation. The majority of the FFM’s work occurred after Inspector B’s separation, and during the last seven months of the FFM’s investigation (August 2018 through February 2019).





So which person/organisation is not being truthful here?


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26968049 - 10/03/20 08:19 PM (23 days, 8 hours ago)

In this example, I'm not sure that either side is lying.  Both reports say Inspector B travelled to Syria.  It's certainly possible that Inspector B never travelled to Douma because he didn't complete the necessary training (possibly some kind of safety training).

But the OPCW report tried to make it sound like he was an amateur who "was selected to be a member of the FFM for the first time".  However, he served with the OPCW for 16 years and was also the chief author of the main report before OPCW leadership took control.  One OPCW superior wrote that Inspector B “has contributed the most to the knowledge and understanding of Chemical Weapons chemistry applied to inspections.”  And still another manager described B as “one of the most well regarded” team leaders, whose “experience of the organisation, its verification regime, and judgment are unmatched.”

It's a good point though, as I assumed he went to Douma.  But as we saw from a leaked email from OPCW management: "All we 'gave' the experts (the toxicologists) were open-source videos and photos - so their insight was (and had to remain) limited."  So it appears not everyone involved in the findings of the report went to Douma.  Inspector A, however, did go to Douma, and he is also one of the whistle blowers who complained of a cover up.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #26968464 - 10/04/20 03:39 AM (23 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
But the OPCW report tried to make it sound like he was an amateur who "was selected to be a member of the FFM for the first time".  However, he served with the OPCW for 16 years and was also the chief author of the main report before OPCW leadership took control.  One OPCW superior wrote that Inspector B “has contributed the most to the knowledge and understanding of Chemical Weapons chemistry applied to inspections.”  And still another manager described B as “one of the most well regarded” team leaders, whose “experience of the organisation, its verification regime, and judgment are unmatched.”



Did they?

From the report:
Quote:

Inspector B
21. Inspector B first worked for the OPCW from July 1998 to December 2011, eventually being promoted to Team Leader. He was rehired at a lower level in September 2015 and worked at the OPCW until August 2018.
22. Inspector B refused to cooperate with the investigation, despite his duty to do so. He was invited to come to OPCW Headquarters (at the Organisation’s expense) in order to review the draft investigation report and to provide comments thereon. However,
he placed conditions upon his review of the report that were not consistent with OPCW procedures.
23. Having been selected to be a member of the FFM for the first time, Inspector B travelled to the Syrian Arab Republic in April 2018. However, he never left the command post in Damascus because he had not completed the training required to deploy to the field.





From the Director-General's statement on the report:
Quote:

I now turn to the findings of the investigation on Inspector B. Inspector B first worked for the OPCW from July 1998 to December 2011, eventually being promoted to Team Leader. He was rehired at a lower level in September 2015 and worked at the OPCW until August 2018. Having been selected to be a member of the FFM for the first time, Inspector B travelled to the Syrian Arab Republic in April 2018. However, Inspector B never left the OPCW office in Damascus, because he had not completed the necessary training required to deploy on-site in Douma.






I'm not sure which one you pulled your quote from, but either way you appear to be dishonest in your representation of the available facts - just like your sources.

Seriously though, let's think about this for a moment, what's more unlikely - (1) as the final pocket of resistance in Douma (under heavy bombing) fell to the Syrian army, the rebels were able to fake a chemical weapons attack (including dented chlorine tanks, craters, contaminated rubble, and dozens of dead bodies) without leaving any direct evidence of the conspiracy, in the hope that it would resemble previous chemical attacks by the Syrian army and give the USA an excuse to attack Assad

Or... (2) in the final push to regain a long-held rebel stronghold that included significant air bombardment, the Syrian army used chemical weapons they were known to possess.


The problem I see with your worldview is that your 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' attitude and opposition to US imperialism leads you to defend any state that stands in opposition to US imperialism regardless of the atrocities it may commit; use of chemical weapons by the Syrian state; Russian military invasion of Crimea; Uighur concentration camps in China; even the Hong Kong rebellion was merely a product of meddling by US imperialism according to you. It's just so shortsighted.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26968921 - 10/04/20 01:05 PM (22 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I'm not sure which one you pulled your quote from, but either way you appear to be dishonest in your representation of the available facts - just like your sources.



I pulled it from the page that Enlil linked to above.  Please give it a read before calling me "dishonest".

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Seriously though, let's think about this for a moment, what's more unlikely - (1) as the final pocket of resistance in Douma (under heavy bombing) fell to the Syrian army, the rebels were able to fake a chemical weapons attack (including dented chlorine tanks, craters, contaminated rubble, and dozens of dead bodies) without leaving any direct evidence of the conspiracy, in the hope that it would resemble previous chemical attacks by the Syrian army and give the USA an excuse to attack Assad

Or... (2) in the final push to regain a long-held rebel stronghold that included significant air bombardment, the Syrian army used chemical weapons they were known to possess.



The inspectors are saying they determined it is number 1.  And I'm saying it would have been absolutely stupid for Assad to launch a chemical attack which he KNOWS would bring the west back into the conflict, just before taking out one of the last rebel strongholds.

A few points worth noting.  The craters, rubble, and dead bodies may have come from conventional warfare, which I'm surprised you didn't think about.  Assad got rid of his chemical weapons in 2014.  I know it's possible he still had some, but it would have been stupid for him to use at the end of the war, as the British General points out in the video in my OP.  Medical doctors on the scene said they treated people for smoke inhalation, not a chemical attack.  Finally, the OPCW got the pictures of people who looked like they were hit with chemical weapons came from the internet, not from the scene of the attack.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The problem I see with your worldview is that your 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' attitude and opposition to US imperialism leads you to defend any state that stands in opposition to US imperialism regardless of the atrocities it may commit; use of chemical weapons by the Syrian state; Russian military invasion of Crimea; Uighur concentration camps in China; even the Hong Kong rebellion was merely a product of meddling by US imperialism according to you. It's just so shortsighted.



The problem I see with your statement is that this isn't my "worldview".  My worldview is to see what the evidence says and go with that, NOT to always support "my side" and oppose the "bad guys" regardless what the evidence, or lack thereof suggests.


--------------------
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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26969106 - 10/04/20 03:29 PM (22 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I'm not sure which one you pulled your quote from, but either way you appear to be dishonest in your representation of the available facts - just like your sources.



I pulled it from the page that Enlil linked to above.  Please give it a read before calling me "dishonest".




You specifically stated "the OPCW report". Either you didn't bother to read the actual report, and drew your erroneous conclusions from the website preamble - or you did read the report, and ignored the context it contained when making your false claim that "the OPCW report tried to make it sound like he was an amateur".

Judging from the length of your initial posts in this thread, you've invested a lot of time into this subject. I'm not sure how admitting that you didn't bother to directly read the report in question - instead, apparently, gathering your information through 3rd party sources - reflects better. Maybe you weren't being intentionally dishonest, but clearly your information gathering skills are deficient because checking out the primary sources of claims is critical thinking 101.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26969275 - 10/04/20 04:51 PM (22 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
You specifically stated "the OPCW report". Either you didn't bother to read the actual report, and drew your erroneous conclusions from the website preamble - or you did read the report, and ignored the context it contained when making your false claim that "the OPCW report tried to make it sound like he was an amateur".



Ok, I should have been clearer that I was referring to the page Enlil linked to.  The statement you quoted came from an investigation into possible breaches of confidentiality, not from the 6 July 18 interim report of the fact finding mission in Douma, not from the 1 Mar 19 final report of the fact finding mission in Douma, and not from Enlil's link.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Judging from the length of your initial posts in this thread, you've invested a lot of time into this subject. I'm not sure how admitting that you didn't bother to directly read the report in question - instead, apparently, gathering your information through 3rd party sources - reflects better.



As I just pointed out, I was referring to the page Enlil linked to, which served it's purpose of fooling Enlil, as he actually quoted the part that made it sound like these guys were amateurs.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Maybe you weren't being intentionally dishonest, but clearly your information gathering skills are deficient because checking out the primary sources of claims is critical thinking 101.



There was no dishonesty at all here, as explained above.

Regardless, you're using Enlil's favorite tactic of trying find where I haven't dotted an "i" or crossed a "t".  You're missing the big picture here which is that the interim and final reports left out critical information:

- That the experts determined that the cylinders found on the site of the alleged attack were more likely manually placed there than dropped from a plane or helicopter
- That the experts found no correlation between the symptoms of the victims and chlorine exposure
- That the levels of chlorine found were so low they may have come from household cleaners


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26969476 - 10/04/20 06:59 PM (22 days, 10 hours ago)

You were clear enough the first time - I'm still not sure you are actually reading these things. This is the title of the webpage in discussion - OPCW: Independent Investigation into Possible Breaches of Confidentiality Report Released - and at the bottom, under the More Information heading we find the report linked - Report of the Investigation into Possible Breaches of Confidentiality. My initial accusation holds: Either you didn't bother to read the actual report, and drew your erroneous conclusions from the website preamble - or you did read the report, and ignored the context it contained when making your false claim that "the OPCW report tried to make it sound like he was an amateur".


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26969529 - 10/04/20 07:29 PM (22 days, 9 hours ago)

Did you miss Enlil's summary?  That summary was CLEARLY an attempt to discredit inspectors A and B.

Yes, of course the OPCW knows they used qualified people, as evidenced by the detailed report you linked to.  Enlil missed it, and I'll admit I missed it too.  BUT THAT'S EXCATLY THE POINT.

And you're still missing the main argument:  that the interim AND final reports left out critical information:

- That the experts determined that the cylinders found on the site of the alleged attack were more likely manually placed there than dropped from a plane or helicopter
- That the experts found no correlation between the symptoms of the victims and chlorine exposure
- That the levels of chlorine found were so low they may have come from household cleaners

After the final report came out, about 20 inspectors said they felt the final report "did not reflect the views of the team members that deployed to Douma”.  That's the scandal.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (10/04/20 09:38 PM)


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26970404 - 10/05/20 12:48 PM (21 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
But the OPCW report tried to make it sound like he was an amateur who "was selected to be a member of the FFM for the first time".




Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Ok, I should have been clearer that I was referring to the page Enlil linked to.




Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Did you miss Enlil's summary?  That summary was CLEARLY an attempt to discredit inspectors A and B.






So you read a post on the shroomery and used that as the basis for your claim against the OPCW report?


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26970571 - 10/05/20 02:57 PM (21 days, 14 hours ago)

I don't even know what you're trying to argue.

If you're saying the inspectors were highly qualified and the OPCW should have left their concerns in the report, I'll agree.

Before the final report came out, only two inspectors (Inspectors A and B) voiced their concerns about the process.  After OPCW management criticized them (per Enlil's post), and after the final report came out, many other inspectors came forward to say they too are concerned that the final report left out important information (that I've summarized many times above).

Again, I don't know what relevant point you're trying to make here.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26970576 - 10/05/20 02:59 PM (21 days, 14 hours ago)

Concern about the process doesn't undercut the conclusion.  Your whole argument is no different that a truther stating doubts about the NIST reports.  Unless you have evidence of an alternative theory, it's all just smoke and mirrors that largely belongs in conspiracy nutter fora.


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Enlil]
    #26970617 - 10/05/20 03:30 PM (21 days, 13 hours ago)

I'm not concerned about the process, I'm concerned about the OPCW leaving out the findings of the inspectors in the conclusion:

- That the experts determined that the cylinders found on the site of the alleged attack were more likely manually placed there than dropped from a plane or helicopter
- That the experts found no correlation between the symptoms of the victims and chlorine exposure
- That the levels of chlorine found were so low they may have come from household cleaners

Evidence of these "alternate theories" are in the original reports

33. In summary, observations at the scene of the two locations, together with subsequent analysis,suggest that there is a higher probability that both cylinders were manually placed at those twolocations rather than being delivered from aircraft.

Do you believe me now, or shall I locate the next two points in the original reports?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Perhaps I'm a bit vain, but I pay careful attention to my 'vote ups'.  Please feel free to 'vote up' a post that you like - I won't tell anyone.  :smirk:


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Re: Did Bashar al-Assad launch a 7 Apr 18 Chemical Attack in Douma? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26970620 - 10/05/20 03:32 PM (21 days, 13 hours ago)

Believe what?  That OPCW lied?  No.  Nothing you've said has moved your hypothesis beyond conjecture.


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