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Asante
Mage


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Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate?
#26965329 - 10/02/20 06:11 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Will it be Pence?
Will Pence be president until new elections can be arranged?
How does that work in US elections?
Asking of the Shroomery Republicans: who would you prefer to see as the next republican president?
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Darwin23
INFJ



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Asante]
#26965408 - 10/02/20 07:48 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Trump is a cult of personality and the strategists for the Republican party are well aware of it. Should Trump die, they have no chance of winning the election. Their move would almost certainly be to treat Trump as a martyr/fallen hero and try to ride on that adoration to get seats filled by Trump-esque candidates. Pence is poised to take the position and to run for the presidency should Trump die, but he and everyone else know that he'd bomb in November.
In a more general sense, Trump is in a really bad spot. If this is some BS stunt like Diosdado Cabello did in Venezuela, people will lose trust in him. If he has severe symptoms after months of attempting to downplay and dismiss it, people will lose trust in him. It's definitely a lose-lose situation (lose-lose-lose if you count death as another form of defeat.) Being fair though, he'll lose much more support should he become severely ill than should he be asymptomatic.
--------------------
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qman
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Darwin23]
#26965519 - 10/02/20 09:04 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Pence wins with the sympathy vote. Pence vs Biden is an ideal match up for the Republicans.
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Kryptos
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: qman] 4
#26965725 - 10/02/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Legally, I'm pretty sure it's too late to take Trump off the ballot. So, voting continues with trump on the ballot, even if he's dead. If he is elected, then 20th amendment section 3 kicks in, so VP pence becomes president.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Kryptos] 2
#26965782 - 10/02/20 11:51 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Psilynut2
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Asante] 1
#26965838 - 10/02/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asking of the Shroomery Republicans: who would you prefer to see as the next republican president?
Pretty sure there’s only one man on this planet that could match trumps craziness, lies and downright shameful behavior . There’s only one guy I can see appealing to his base . Alex Jones . I don’t think the Republican party can go back to what it used to be . They are going to have to make the most out of whatever Trump leaves them with .
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Asante]
#26965931 - 10/02/20 01:23 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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The doctor said he is doing well. Him and Melania
--------------------
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: imachavel]
#26965941 - 10/02/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Give it time...
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
#26965959 - 10/02/20 01:38 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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--------------------
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Asante
Mage


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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: imachavel] 5
#26965968 - 10/02/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said: The doctor said he is doing well. Him and Melania
The Doctor and Melania are doing well
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Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Asante]
#26965970 - 10/02/20 01:44 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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President Pence 
He would probably win too, far less prone to making an ass of himself
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Asante]
#26966039 - 10/02/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said:
Quote:
imachavel said: The doctor said he is doing well. Him and Melania
The Doctor and Melania are doing well 
   
--------------------
I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Stable Genius
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Kryptos]
#26966352 - 10/02/20 05:09 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Legally, I'm pretty sure it's too late to take Trump off the ballot. So, voting continues with trump on the ballot, even if he's dead. If he is elected, then 20th amendment section 3 kicks in, so VP pence becomes president.
Trump dead, yet still on the ballot.... I'd pay to see that in this bat shit crazy story. If he recovers 2 weeks before the election, like a modern type fat arse Jesus figure, I'd pay to see that too! This is the best election ever
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
#26966362 - 10/02/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:

To see the orange face fade to white, already missing him.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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birdeatingspider
Stranger in Paradise



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil] 2
#26967024 - 10/03/20 06:40 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Seriously, I don't understand your inclination that Trump might not survive this. The recovery rates are in his favor, so what do you know that we don't, that you're saying to 'just wait..'
If that's where your heart is, then the best you have to hope for is some lung scarring or perm damage of some kind.
Regardless, I don't believe any report on Trump's progress, so 'doing just fine' is meaningless to me.
--------------------
From all I may be, or have been before, To mingle with the Universe, and feel What I can ne’er express, yet cannot all conceal.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: birdeatingspider] 3
#26967036 - 10/03/20 06:49 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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When did I say he won't recover? Recovery isn't enough, though. He has to skip out of the fucking hospital Monday morning and play golf on Tuesday to save his election chances now.
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
#26967105 - 10/03/20 07:43 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ezuma said: President Pence 
He would probably win too, far less prone to making an ass of himself
Who would vote for him? Fundamentalists and hardcore conservatives, and nobody else. He would lose at least as bad as Trump would.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Kryptos
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Brian Jones]
#26967504 - 10/03/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Pence has a long history of losing repeatedly, and then begging for corporate funding to save his campaign while publicly campaigning on being against corporate funding.
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Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Brian Jones] 2
#26967786 - 10/03/20 03:22 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
Ezuma said: President Pence 
He would probably win too, far less prone to making an ass of himself
Who would vote for him? Fundamentalists and hardcore conservatives, and nobody else. He would lose at least as bad as Trump would.
you're probably (hopefully) right, but I'm very cautious about trusting voter's judgement these days
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: birdeatingspider] 1
#26967842 - 10/03/20 04:03 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
birdeatingspider said: Seriously, I don't understand your inclination that Trump might not survive this. The recovery rates are in his favor, so what do you know that we don't, that you're saying to 'just wait..'
If that's where your heart is, then the best you have to hope for is some lung scarring or perm damage of some kind.
Regardless, I don't believe any report on Trump's progress, so 'doing just fine' is meaningless to me.
Let’s start with a baseline overall mortality rate for a person who tests positive in his age group: 5%. Double that because he’s obese. Double that again because he has symptoms. Double that again because he’s been hospitalized and receiving experimental and emergency use drugs. It’s still more likely he will survive but not by much.
--------------------
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: koods] 2
#26968042 - 10/03/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Maybe he turns into flaming lib after a NDE. Trumps awakening! Fuck it,only actual death will shut him up.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (10/03/20 06:13 PM)
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emcee
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#26969802 - 10/04/20 08:28 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
Ezuma said: President Pence 
He would probably win too, far less prone to making an ass of himself
Who would vote for him? Fundamentalists and hardcore conservatives, and nobody else. He would lose at least as bad as Trump would.
Anti-globalists would vote for Trump.
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christopera
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: emcee]
#26969807 - 10/04/20 08:31 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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If Trump died Penes would win on the pity vote. He however wouldn't be able to stand on his own as a Presidential pick.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Kryptos
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: christopera]
#26969873 - 10/04/20 09:46 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Meh, people said Trump wouldn't be able to hold up. Of course, he hasn't done basic president things, but that hasn't caused him any issues until now.
Pence would be perfectly fine as president, as long as you don't mind a christian theocracy.
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christopera
Stranger


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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Kryptos]
#26969874 - 10/04/20 09:50 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I guess it would be silly to doubt the "Christians" of the world.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: christopera]
#26969887 - 10/04/20 10:05 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
christopera said: If Trump died Penes would win on the pity vote. He however wouldn't be able to stand on his own as a Presidential pick.
Is he going to be allowed to be onstage with a woman
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Kryptos
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: koods]
#26970154 - 10/05/20 05:42 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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They'll just ban women.
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my3rdeye



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Kryptos]
#26970173 - 10/05/20 06:16 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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What about one of these three morons? It could be like the Kim dynasty in Korea
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: my3rdeye]
#26970181 - 10/05/20 06:30 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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At least she doesn't look stupid.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Kryptos
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: my3rdeye]
#26970185 - 10/05/20 06:39 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I believe that is the plan, at least for some people.
I guess "forever" ends in 2056.
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Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Kryptos]
#26970398 - 10/05/20 10:44 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
I guess "forever" ends in 2056.
as likely as anything at this point
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meltdowner
Total Noob



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Asante]
#26972986 - 10/06/20 10:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: Will it be Pence?
Will Pence be president until new elections can be arranged?
How does that work in US elections?
Asking of the Shroomery Republicans: who would you prefer to see as the next republican president?
Dream on girlfriend. Trump just defeated COVID while middle aged fatties died to the flu.
-------------------- I'm a Lightweight. I like to eat like two caps at a time.
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Asante
Mage


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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: meltdowner]
#26973176 - 10/07/20 03:47 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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You misunderstand my position, I want Trump to be reelected - not because hes the most capable man but quite the opposite, because he is the most incapable man.
The American people are best served with a swift collapse of the oligarchy and a renewed election with the ACTUAL BEST that both parties have to offer, not two wet diapers who go against the interest of the american people to serve the 0.1%.
The longer it takes the system to fall, the weaker the american people will be. More divided, more broke, more painted in a corner, even the middle class. Not even the 0.1% is served by that.
So let the system go bust today rather than tomorrow.
America needs to cast off the yoke of the oligarchy.
For that swift destruction of the US Government, Trump seems ideal.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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birdeatingspider
Stranger in Paradise



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Posts: 2,988
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Asante]
#26973181 - 10/07/20 03:55 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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You think so highly of the American people.
--------------------
From all I may be, or have been before, To mingle with the Universe, and feel What I can ne’er express, yet cannot all conceal.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: birdeatingspider] 2
#26973198 - 10/07/20 04:04 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I want to keep as many alive as possible during these troubled years.
Havent you noticed my consistent warnings over the years to get a month's emergency supply etc, warning for the types of crises that are now unfolding?
I fucking resent the liquid shite out of how both the republican party and the democrat party are ran, the oligarchy and the power of the lobby groups and how you beat up little brown kids on the world playground with your tyrannical army, that drives your own vets to suicide, in the interest of that oligarchy.
I fucking hate your government just like I fucking hate every government including my own that I ever took sufficient time for to see the flaws in.
But people are people, and I love The People of the world, Americans included.
Americans react like I want to destroy their dick when I lindane spray their nether regions but its actually to rid you of the crablice and scabies that is your government.
Stop thinking of your government as an extension of you. It actively works against you - just like anywhere in the world.
I want US REVOLUTION, not civil war.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Asante]
#26973352 - 10/07/20 07:14 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Kanye west
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Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Asante] 2
#26973612 - 10/07/20 10:51 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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sadly Asante, if america had a revolution soon -now obviously this is just my opinion- it would be a fascist revolution. I don't think we're even close to a socialist america, not without a lot of groundwork that probably requires Trump out to even get started.
Imo its far more likely to see something authoritarian emerge from their chaos
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
#26973615 - 10/07/20 10:55 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Socialism would be as bad as fascism.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil] 1
#26973639 - 10/07/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Socialism would be as bad as fascism.
I very strongly disagree, depending on what kind of socialism we're talking about. Personally I would push for Market Socialism just for practical reasons, but it doesn't really matter since the USA will not change their course anytime soon
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
#26973653 - 10/07/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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And socialism doesn't work anyway.
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Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil] 2
#26973658 - 10/07/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: And socialism doesn't work anyway.
I disagree though this is off topic. Do you mean categorically socialism/socialist policies don't work, or that specifically soviet or maoist style communism doesn't work?
I would argue socialized healthcare, for example, works pretty well for just about every decent country, I would argue worker's rights don't simply work, but are necessary. I would argue the same for publicly funded education, roads, social security nets etc...
Basically this would be a long argument and derail this thread
In short I support socialism (evidently) but I don't think the USA can hope to get anything nice out of this situation. The best they can hope for is return to the quagmire that is its normal state of dysfunction
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Enlil
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
#26973660 - 10/07/20 11:28 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Public healthcare isn't socialist. Healthcare isn't a good, and public healthcare isn't the people owning the means of production. Public healthcare is no more socialist than public roads, public utilities, etc.
I mean socialism has failed every time it's been tried on a large scale.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
#26973794 - 10/07/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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What’s up with Chris Christie? His Twitter account has gone silent. Did trump kill him like he killed Herman Cain
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
#26974396 - 10/07/20 07:40 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Public healthcare isn't socialist. Healthcare isn't a good, and public healthcare isn't the people owning the means of production. Public healthcare is no more socialist than public roads, public utilities, etc.
I mean socialism has failed every time it's been tried on a large scale.
According to what source is healthcare not a good or a market? It certainly is treated as such under capitalism in the US. I would argue that socialism also isn't an all or nothing philosophy, you can have aspect of a system be socialist without needing to spring for full blown public ownership of everything. Also if a democratic government -effectively the public- owns all the forms of healthcare available in a country, I would call that socialism, although like any area of political philosophy there will be many opinions on that.
I also disagree that socialism has failed, while every socialist country ever to exist has had problems -just like any form of government- several socialist countries continue to exist today, notably Vietnam and Cuba. Neither is perfect but both function to the same extent that many capitalist nations do.
I also in general am suspicious of revolution, given in most cases the results are pretty shaky if not outright failure, so personally I am more in favor of long-term gradual transition from capitalism to socialism rather than an over night system overhaul.
As to Chris Christie, I wouldn't be surprised if he's croaked
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Enlil
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
#26974421 - 10/07/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Healthcare is a service. It's not a good under any economic definition. I suppose you could check wiki, but this is common knowledge.
Vietnam and Cuba haven't been socialist long. Give it time.
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Ezuma
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
#26974451 - 10/07/20 08:17 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Healthcare is a service. It's not a good under any economic definition. I suppose you could check wiki, but this is common knowledge.
Vietnam and Cuba haven't been socialist long. Give it time.
it is a service that exists as part of the market economy, the question of whether its a good isn't really relevant to my point, although I concede you are technically correct on that 1. point. Single-payer healthcare is however, a socialist notion, as it entails public ownership of the service providing systems -and should also provide public ownership of the production of the goods used within that system.
a service can be provided as part of a capitalist or socialist system, in a capitalist one profit is extracted, and you could have private ownership of bodies providing the services. This i especially relevant since many important economies today are service based, and one could and should fight for public ownership of any important service.
as to the fate of socialist countries, it's a little unfair to hold time against socialism since the ideology is pretty young, certainly younger than loose market-adjacent-systems
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Enlil
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
#26974473 - 10/07/20 08:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't agree at all. Public services are not socialist in nature. The distinguishing trait of socialism is public ownership of the means of production of goods. Insurance is a financial instrument. Healthcare is a service. Even in public Healthcare systems, the goods used to treat people are generally still made by private companies.
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Ezuma
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
#26974486 - 10/07/20 08:36 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: I don't agree at all. Public services are not socialist in nature. The distinguishing trait of socialism is public ownership of the means of production of goods. Insurance is a financial instrument. Healthcare is a service. Even in public Healthcare systems, the goods used to treat people are generally still made by private companies.
Socialism is more than just public ownership of the means of production of goods. Like any ideology there's a range of opinion and applications, but here's a quick definition of socialism:
"A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."
(note that youcould also have aspects of this system not owned, but merely regulated by the public, so it's not contradictory to have some private elements, as would likely be present at the beginning of any market socialism)
How are public services not socialist? Services aren't inherently socialist, obviously they can be privatized although I would argue that public ownership of the means of distribution -i.e. services- is also a common trait of socialism, along with public ownership of goods and the means of production.
They exist in any socialist system, publicly owned and run. Whereas in a market system, those same services -though often government managed or run- can also be privately provided, whether or not the goods in question are.
The goods as well, in my preferred system would be made by publicly owned operations, though I'm sure you wouldn't agree on that and that's fine.
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Enlil
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
#26974500 - 10/07/20 08:46 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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That's just changing definitions to meet your argument. Public ownership of services predates socialism by a long time. Public ownership of courts, police, road maintenance, jails, etc. Is standard for any modern society. Calling that socialism is silly.
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Ezuma
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
#26974510 - 10/07/20 08:54 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: That's just changing definitions to meet your argument. Public ownership of services predates socialism by a long time. Public ownership of courts, police, road maintenance, jails, etc. Is standard for any modern society. Calling that socialism is silly.
I'm not changing the definition, that is the oxford definition of socialism, sorry 
State ownership of many of those services is standard -because its the only way for it to happen, although I would argue state is not the same as public, so the origins of state owned common services predated public ownership, and certainly do predate socialism. That however does not mean that public healthcare -what I was specifically talking about- can't be considered a socialist policy, considering socialist governments would always own and operate the healthcare system, whereas private healthcare services did and commonly do exist in capitalist countries.
I did not change the definition of socialism, you perhaps, have too narrow and idea of what it constitutes.
I would agree though with some of your argument, that governments often do own and run services publicly, and did before socialist philosophy developed fully. That however does not mean that such practices can't be seen to be in line with-or even part of, the broader concept of socialism, simply because the term did not exist in years prior.
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
#26974546 - 10/07/20 09:16 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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None of it really matters since it clearly doesn't work large scale.
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Ezuma
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
#26974551 - 10/07/20 09:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: None of it really matters since it clearly doesn't work large scale.
still disagree on that, but I agree that it doesn't matter in this larger discussion since it won't happen in the USA anyways
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Brian Jones
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil] 1
#26975004 - 10/08/20 07:09 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Healthcare is a service. It's not a good under any economic definition. I suppose you could check wiki, but this is common knowledge.
Vietnam and Cuba haven't been socialist long. Give it time.
I googled it and all the sources are saying healthcare is an economic good and service. https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mankiw/files/economics_of_healthcare.pdf
https://www.healthknowledge.org.uk/public-health-textbook/medical-sociology-policy-economics/4d-health-economics/principles-he
IMO, they are synonymous in this context, and I don't see the usefulness or relevance of any distinction that could be made.
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Brian Jones]
#26975079 - 10/08/20 08:21 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Actually, neither of your sources say that. They discuss healthcare services and healthcare goods. Healthcare services are services provided by people. Healthcare goods are objects that healthcare providers use or provide to people. The distinction plays a role in the discussion because of how they are handled in a capitalist society would differ from how they are handled in a socialist society.
In a capitalist society, public healthcare is a "single payer" system. This means the government pays for the goods and services related to healthcare, but it doesn't actually own the means of production of those goods. If I go to a doctor and he does surgery on my knee, the crutches aren't made by a government factory nor is the pain medicine. The doctor may or may not work for a government agency, however. The doctor provides a service, though, so it doesn't matter whether or not he's a government employee because a government providing services isn't socialism.
If, however, it were a socialist society, the government would also own/control the factory that made the crutches and the medicine.
Further up the chain, where the government replaces private insurance companies, again, insurance isn't a good. It is a service. There is no manufacturing of insurance.
Government control of the means or production is the core is the core distinction that makes socialism what it is. Every developed society has government services to one extent or another.
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil] 1
#26975282 - 10/08/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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They say that health care is made up of health care services and health care goods. To me this is common sense. Insulin is the health care that a lot of people need.
I'm also not on the same page as you on socialism. Regardless of what Marx or Poli Sci 101 class says, in the real world socialism is e.g. Sweden; the government owns a larger share of the means of production. There is no pure socialism or capitalism.
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Enlil
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Brian Jones]
#26975300 - 10/08/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Exactly. Single payer systems aren't about the government owning the means of production of healthcare goods. That makes it not socialist. The fact that there is no pure socialist nation is a non sequitur, of course.
As to Sweden, I don't see it as a socialist nation at all. It's way more capitalist than socialist, IMO. Of course, we can disagree on that.
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Asante]
#26976258 - 10/08/20 10:42 PM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: Will it be Pence?
Will Pence be president until new elections can be arranged?
How does that work in US elections?
Asking of the Shroomery Republicans: who would you prefer to see as the next republican president?
Keep dreaming assante, if it makes you happy, A homosexual Obama will get a sex change ans will be President again if Trump dies of Covid.
How are you feeling now?!?! You cumming?
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Asante
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: meltdowner] 1
#26976463 - 10/09/20 05:08 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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No but banning you for your homophobic/transphobic trollery gave a sense of relief.
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