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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #26973658 - 10/07/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
And socialism doesn't work anyway.




I disagree though this is off topic. Do you mean categorically socialism/socialist policies don't work, or that specifically soviet or maoist style communism doesn't work?

I would argue socialized healthcare, for example, works pretty well for just about every decent country, I would argue worker's rights don't simply work, but are necessary. I would argue the same for publicly funded education, roads, social security nets etc...

Basically this would be a long argument and derail this thread

In short I support socialism (evidently) but I don't think the USA can hope to get anything nice out of this situation. The best they can hope for is return to the quagmire that is its normal state of dysfunction


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
    #26973660 - 10/07/20 11:28 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Public healthcare isn't socialist.  Healthcare isn't a good, and public healthcare isn't the people owning the means of production.  Public healthcare is no more socialist than public roads, public utilities, etc.

I mean socialism has failed every time it's been tried on a large scale.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
    #26973794 - 10/07/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

What’s up with Chris Christie? His Twitter account has gone silent. Did trump kill him like he killed Herman Cain


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
    #26974396 - 10/07/20 07:40 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Public healthcare isn't socialist.  Healthcare isn't a good, and public healthcare isn't the people owning the means of production.  Public healthcare is no more socialist than public roads, public utilities, etc.

I mean socialism has failed every time it's been tried on a large scale.




According to what source is healthcare not a good or a market? It certainly is treated as such under capitalism in the US. I would argue that socialism also isn't an all or nothing philosophy, you can have aspect of a system be socialist without needing to spring for full blown public ownership of everything. Also if a democratic government -effectively the public- owns all the forms of healthcare available in a country, I would call that socialism, although like any area of political philosophy there will be many opinions on that.

I also disagree that socialism has failed, while every socialist country ever to exist has had problems -just like any form of government- several socialist countries continue to exist today, notably Vietnam and Cuba. Neither is perfect but both function to the same extent that many capitalist nations do.

I also in general am suspicious of revolution, given in most cases the results are pretty shaky if not outright failure, so personally I am more in favor of long-term gradual transition from capitalism to socialism rather than an over night system overhaul.




As to Chris Christie, I wouldn't be surprised if he's croaked


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
    #26974421 - 10/07/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Healthcare is a service. It's not a good under any economic definition. I suppose you could check wiki,  but this is common knowledge.

Vietnam and Cuba haven't been socialist long. Give it time.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
    #26974451 - 10/07/20 08:17 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Healthcare is a service. It's not a good under any economic definition. I suppose you could check wiki,  but this is common knowledge.

Vietnam and Cuba haven't been socialist long. Give it time.




it is a service that exists as part of the market economy, the question of whether its a good isn't really relevant to my point, although I concede you are technically correct on that 1. point. Single-payer healthcare is however, a socialist notion, as it entails public ownership of the service providing systems -and should also provide public ownership of the production of the goods used within that system.

a service can be provided as part of a capitalist or socialist system, in a capitalist one profit is extracted, and you could have private ownership of bodies providing the services. This i especially relevant since many important economies today are service based, and one could and should fight for public ownership of any important service.

as to the fate of socialist countries, it's a little unfair to hold time against socialism since the ideology is pretty young, certainly younger than loose market-adjacent-systems


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
    #26974473 - 10/07/20 08:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I don't agree at all. Public services are not socialist in nature. The distinguishing trait of socialism is public ownership of the means of production of goods. Insurance is a financial instrument. Healthcare is a service. Even in public Healthcare systems,  the goods used to treat people are generally still made by private companies.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
    #26974486 - 10/07/20 08:36 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't agree at all. Public services are not socialist in nature. The distinguishing trait of socialism is public ownership of the means of production of goods. Insurance is a financial instrument. Healthcare is a service. Even in public Healthcare systems,  the goods used to treat people are generally still made by private companies.




Socialism is more than just public ownership of the means of production of goods. Like any ideology there's a range of opinion and applications, but here's a quick definition of socialism:

"A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

(note that youcould also have aspects of this system not owned, but merely regulated by the public, so it's not contradictory to have some private elements, as would likely be present at the beginning of any market socialism)

How are public services not socialist? Services aren't inherently socialist, obviously they can be privatized although I would argue that public ownership of the means of distribution -i.e. services- is also a common trait of socialism, along with public ownership of goods and the means of production. 

They exist in any socialist system, publicly owned and run. Whereas in a market system, those same services -though often government managed or run- can also be privately provided, whether or not the goods in question are.

The goods as well, in my preferred system would be made by publicly owned operations, though I'm sure you wouldn't agree on that and that's fine.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
    #26974500 - 10/07/20 08:46 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

That's just changing definitions to meet your argument. Public ownership of services predates socialism by a long time. Public ownership of courts, police,  road maintenance, jails,  etc. Is standard for any modern society. Calling that socialism is silly.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
    #26974510 - 10/07/20 08:54 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
That's just changing definitions to meet your argument. Public ownership of services predates socialism by a long time. Public ownership of courts, police,  road maintenance, jails,  etc. Is standard for any modern society. Calling that socialism is silly.




I'm not changing the definition, that is the oxford definition of socialism, sorry :shrug:

State ownership of many of those services is standard -because its the only way for it to happen, although I would argue state is not the same as public, so the origins of state owned common services predated public ownership, and certainly do predate socialism. That however does not mean that public healthcare -what I was specifically talking about- can't be considered a socialist policy, considering socialist governments would always own and operate the healthcare system, whereas private healthcare services did and commonly do exist in capitalist countries.

I did not change the definition of socialism, you perhaps, have too narrow and idea of what it constitutes.

I would agree though with some of your argument, that governments often do own and run services publicly, and did before socialist philosophy developed fully. That however does not mean that such practices can't be seen to be in line with-or even part of, the broader concept of socialism, simply because the term did not exist in years prior.


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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Ezuma]
    #26974546 - 10/07/20 09:16 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

None of it really matters since it clearly doesn't work large scale.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil]
    #26974551 - 10/07/20 09:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
None of it really matters since it clearly doesn't work large scale.




still disagree on that, but I agree that it doesn't matter in this larger discussion since it won't happen in the USA anyways :thumbup:


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26975004 - 10/08/20 07:09 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Healthcare is a service. It's not a good under any economic definition. I suppose you could check wiki,  but this is common knowledge.

Vietnam and Cuba haven't been socialist long. Give it time.




I googled it and all the sources are saying healthcare is an economic good and service.
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mankiw/files/economics_of_healthcare.pdf

https://www.healthknowledge.org.uk/public-health-textbook/medical-sociology-policy-economics/4d-health-economics/principles-he

IMO, they are synonymous in this context, and I don't see the usefulness or relevance of any distinction that could be made.


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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26975079 - 10/08/20 08:21 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, neither of your sources say that.  They discuss healthcare services and healthcare goods.  Healthcare services are services provided by people.  Healthcare goods are objects that healthcare providers use or provide to people.  The distinction plays a role in the discussion because of how they are handled in a capitalist society would differ from how they are handled in a socialist society.

In a capitalist society, public healthcare is a "single payer" system.  This means the government pays for the goods and services related to healthcare, but it doesn't actually own the means of production of those goods.  If I go to a doctor and he does surgery on my knee, the crutches aren't made by a government factory nor is the pain medicine.  The doctor may or may not work for a government agency, however.  The doctor provides a service, though, so it doesn't matter whether or not he's a government employee because a government providing services isn't socialism.

If, however, it were a socialist society, the government would also own/control the factory that made the crutches and the medicine.

Further up the chain, where the government replaces private insurance companies, again, insurance isn't a good.  It is a service.  There is no manufacturing of insurance.

Government control of the means or production is the core is the core distinction that makes socialism what it is.  Every developed society has government services to one extent or another.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26975282 - 10/08/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

They say that health care is made up of health care services and health care goods. To me this is common sense. Insulin is the health care that a lot of people need.

I'm also not on the same page as you on socialism. Regardless of what Marx or Poli Sci 101 class says, in the real world socialism is e.g. Sweden; the government owns a larger share of the means of production. There is no pure socialism or capitalism.


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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26975300 - 10/08/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly.  Single payer systems aren't about the government owning the means of production of healthcare goods.  That makes it not socialist.  The fact that there is no pure socialist nation is a non sequitur, of course.

As to Sweden, I don't see it as a socialist nation at all.  It's way more capitalist than socialist, IMO.  Of course, we can disagree on that.


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Offlinemeltdowner
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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: Asante]
    #26976258 - 10/08/20 10:42 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Will it be Pence?

Will Pence be president until new elections can be arranged?

How does that work in US elections?

Asking of the Shroomery Republicans: who would you prefer to see as the next republican president?



Keep dreaming assante, if it makes you happy, A homosexual Obama will get a sex change ans will be President again if Trump dies of Covid.

How are you feeling now?!?!  You cumming?


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Re: Suppose Trump dies of COVID this month, who will be the Republican candidate? [Re: meltdowner] * 1
    #26976463 - 10/09/20 05:08 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

No but banning you for your homophobic/transphobic trollery gave a sense of relief.


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