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OfflineQuebecybin
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Re: Psilocybe Caerulipes 2020 [Re: rud_dudl]
    #26964546 - 10/01/20 06:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Hi rud_dudl! Congrats on your finds!! Excellent description of the spécimens and habitat with the name of the trees and everything!!

Now I have one bad and one good news for you.

-Bad; these are not caerulipes…

-Good; they are Québecensis!/aztecorum!

Ok Im an amateur...I Don't know anything about dna and microscopy.


Quote:

rud_dudl said:
Date of Collection: October 6th, 2018
Habitat: growing in shaded grassy area underneath Populus sp. and Acer saccharum
The wet margin is olive coloured (like moist P. semilanceata) and striate (e.g. the lamellae are visible through the cap = think fleshed). Cap margin is more-or-less even, and central.There are no veil remnants. gills have whitish edges and are mottled in some of the specimens. There are suggestions of a fibrous structure and fibrils on the surface which have collected purplish brown spore deposits. The stem near the cap is pruinose. The stem base is connected to the substrate by rhizomorphic mycelium.
Notes:
Of other four specimens collected, here are the other cap and stem dimensions:
• Cap: 2 cm x 1 cm Stem: 11 cm
• Cap: 2 cm x 1.5 cm Stem: 6.5 cm
• Cap: 2.2 cm x 1.25 cm Stem: 7 cm
• Cap: 2.5 cm x 1.5 cm Stem: 5.5 cm
All specimens exhibit characteristic bluing reaction on stem and cap. Some of the specimens have a bronze tinged stem.






October 6, grassy area, no beech tree, 11cm stem, margin olive coloured, no veil remnants, rhizomorphic features. To me this is quebecensis. From the excellent desrciption and great pics. Just my 2 cents. Incredible finds.


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InvisibleNitro87
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Re: Psilocybe Caerulipes 2020 [Re: rud_dudl]
    #26964880 - 10/01/20 10:03 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Beautiful finds!


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Offlinerud_dudl
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Re: Psilocybe Caerulipes 2020 [Re: Nitro87]
    #26965391 - 10/02/20 07:38 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Hi everyone,
Thanks for the kind words regarding our photos and description. Rolly and I had identified this species a couple years ago and hadn't really revisited it since. There were a couple things that helped us to settle on P. caerulipes (rather than P. quebecensis):

- spore shape - P. quebecensis spores can be mango shaped in one of the planes of view. The spores for our collection were all ellipsoid (or possibly some were subellipsoid) but none were mango shaped. We didn't look at a tonne, maybe 3-4 slides from three mushrooms.

- absence of pleurocystidia - P. caerulipes lacks pleurocystidia whereas P. quebecensis has fusiform-ventricose to ampullaceous pleurocystidia (with short papillae). We found no pleurocystidia in our collections. Admittedly, we didn't spend a lot of time hunting for pleurocystidia...so we may have missed them. Also, as we know from Alan Rockefeller's work on the P. aztecorum group (including P. quebecensis), pleurocystidia may not be particularly robust for taxonomic delimitation at the species level.

- the caps are not viscid, they are tacky to sub-viscid. P. quebecensis is supposed to have viscid caps (according to Guzman and Stamets), whereas P. caerulipes caps are supposed to be sub-viscid to viscid.

-Quebecybin, you mention a few things that make you think our collection is P. quebecensis, here are a few thoughts on those points:

>>>>Collection is not "in season" for P. caerulipes. October 6th is more P. quebecensis season than P. caerulipes season: this year, our first find was on September 19th. The fruitbodies in the patch near me were still pins. Rolly's patch had some mature or almost mature fruitbodies. So, his patch, in a slightly more temperate area probably started pinning a week or so earlier which situates the fruiting time closer to that in PQ, ON, and upstate NY. Also, this report, from Maine lists early October as a collection date there. We are closer to Maine, climatically, than Upper Canada. Here is a link to that report: https://mycoportal.org/portal/collections/individual/index.php?occid=4572945&clid=0 . Also, some reports from Newfoundland from the same site list collection dates of September 10th, which isn't too far off of September 19th. Here is a link to one of those reports: https://mycoportal.org/portal/collections/individual/index.php?occid=4797124&clid=0

>>>>>Grassy area, no beech tree. Guzman's P. caerulipes description mentions beech and maple, but there is no indication that it exclusively colonizes Fagus spp. The original patch that Rolly found included many fruitbodies growing off unidentifiable buried wood but some growing from decaying maple branches. I haven't really been following the P. quebecensis posts on here, but in looking at Guzman and Stamets' books, it seems that P. quebecensis is more commonly found growing on decaying Alnus, Betula, Abies, and Picea. 

>>>>>the 11cm stem is pretty long. According to Guzman (from his one collection), the stem length typically ranged from 3-6cm with an outlier at 7cm. As we know from looking at the difference between Flammulina velutipes grown under increased CO2, stem length is pretty "phenoplastic"...so I think there is a lack of available data on stem length in P. caerulipes and stem length may have limited taxonomic value. So far, this year, the specimens that I have collected are generally much smaller than the ones from 2018.

>>>>>No veil remnants. Guzman doesn't mention veil remnants on the cap for P. caerulipes. I have a copy of his 1978 Psilocybe Mushrooms and their Allies. In that text, Stamets doesn't mention veil remnants as a defining feature of P. caerulipes either. However, in Psilocybe Mushrooms of the World, he does mention veil remnants as occurring in younger P. caerulipes specimens.

>>>>>Presence of rhizomorphs. This is the one character that gave us pause when we were trying to determine the ID of our collection. Rhizomorphic mycelium doesn't seem to be a feature associated with P. caerulipes, according to Guzman or Stamets (and it is with P. quebecensis). However, in looking at Mycoportal this morning, I saw a post made by Alan Rockefeller from a P. caerulipes collection from Veracruz that seemed to have rhizomorphs (or rhizomorphic-like mycelium) at the base of the fruitbody. Here is the link: https://mycoportal.org/portal/collections/individual/index.php?occid=4561788 (the best pic is the one beside the micro-photographs. Also, if you look at the picture of P. caerulipes on p. 104 of Stamets' Psilocybe Mushrooms of the World, one of the fruitbodies has what look like rhizomorphs at the base (or at least thickened, ropy mycelium despite that not being mentioned in the description.

My apologies for the long post. Quebecybin, thanks for bringing up the possibility that our collection is P. quebecensis/aztecorum. Both Rolly and I would be pretty excited if it was P. quebecensis/aztecorum, but we think it is probably P. caerulipes.


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OfflineQuebecybin
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Re: Psilocybe Caerulipes 2020 [Re: rud_dudl]
    #26966089 - 10/02/20 03:18 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Hi rud_dudl

You and your friend seem to know a lot more about mushrooms in general than me. As I said I'm a newbie amateur to this awesome kingdom. I know nothing about microscopes, measuring spores and that kind of work. You also seem to have done a lot of researchs on that species.

To me they still look like quebecensis, but I may be wrong! So I'm gonna trust your identification as caerulipes.

Best regards :smile::thumbup:


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Offlinerud_dudl
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Re: Psilocybe Caerulipes 2020 [Re: Quebecybin]
    #26966965 - 10/03/20 05:02 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Hi Quebecybin, I agree with you, our photos look very similar your collections of P. quebecensis. I still think our collection is P. caerulipes but, just to be sure, I'm going to dust off my scope and have another look for pleuro- and cheilocystidia in our samples. I'll let you know what we find (or don't find).

On another note, have you heard of Congrès Mycélium? It is organized by Biopterre, based at the CEGEP in La Pocatière. The event was postponed due to COVID but will be running this coming summer, hopefully. I know they were trying to get Paul Stamets to be the keynote. I don't know where you are in PQ, but you might want to consider attending. Also, check out Biopterre's website (http://www.biopterre.com/), they are doing some amazing stuff such as experimenting with biofabrics from polypores, studying optimal substrate formulation for Stropharia rugoso-annulata and much more. Anyway, lots of interesting mushroom stuff going on in your province. More than anywhere else in the country, I think.


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OfflineQuebecybin
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Re: Psilocybe Caerulipes 2020 [Re: rud_dudl]
    #26967072 - 10/03/20 07:16 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks a lot for that information. Sure if Stamets is doing a speech I want to be there. Until next summer he may very well have found a mixture of mushrooms that cures sras cov 2 😆 kidding. ..

I live south shore of Montréal. Ive found caerulipes in Estrie, just North of the Vermont border, 1h15 car ride from home. Quebecensis was North of Québec city in Capitale Nationale area, 3h15 from home.

Your pic of the fruiting bodies in that red woodchips is amazing. Didnt know they would fruit so well out of that substrat.

Keep us updated about your work on those mushrooms and if you find something new or not! Thank you


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Edited by Quebecybin (10/03/20 07:25 AM)


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Offlinerud_dudl
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Re: Psilocybe Caerulipes 2020 [Re: Quebecybin]
    #26968607 - 10/04/20 06:18 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Hi Quebecybin, yeah I was hoping to attend as well, the congress will be held near Kamouraska on the Bas-Saint-Laurent. Kamouraska is a beautiful place with great wild mushrooming.

The pics you took from the Estrie area are fabulous, not only did you find P. quebecensis (or P. aztecorum) but also got to hike in that place.

I was also surprised that our P. caerulipes collection fruited so well on what appears to be Douglas Fir mulch...

We will keep you updated on the microscopy work on that sample (as soon as I get around to it).


Edited by rud_dudl (10/06/20 12:46 PM)


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OfflineQuebecybin
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Re: Psilocybe Caerulipes 2020 [Re: rud_dudl]
    #26985664 - 10/14/20 05:44 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

rud_dudl said:
Hi Quebecybin, yeah I was hoping to attend as well, the congress will be held near Kamouraska on the Bas-Saint-Laurent. Kamouraska is a beautiful place with great wild mushrooming.

The pics you took from the Estrie area are fabulous, not only did you find P. quebecensis (or P. aztecorum) but also got to hike in that place.

I was also surprised that our P. caerulipes collection fruited so well on what appears to be Douglas Fir mulch...

We will keep you updated on the microscopy work on that sample (as soon as I get around to it).




Hi! The valley pics where I found Aztecorum is in the Capitale Nationale area, north of Quebec city, not Estrie. Yes what a scenery that was.

I would be curious to see more pics of these psilocybes you found. Also do you know what kind of Populus sp. exactly they were fruiting under? Any yellow birch aroud? Is it a potential flooded area, near a creek? Thank you!


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Offlinerud_dudl
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Re: Psilocybe Caerulipes 2020 [Re: Quebecybin]
    #26986846 - 10/15/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I would be curious to see more pics of these psilocybes you found. Also do you know what kind of Populus sp. exactly they were fruiting under? Any yellow birch aroud? Is it a potential flooded area, near a creek? Thank you!




Hi Quebecybin, I will upload some more pics in the next few days. I think it was Populus tremuloides but I will have to ask Rolly, who is closer to that site and made the original collection. I do not think that there is yellow birch near that location, but I will check and it is nowhere near a flood zone. :smile:


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Offlinerud_dudl
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Re: Psilocybe Caerulipes 2020 [Re: rud_dudl]
    #27026621 - 11/07/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Hi Quebecybin, your suggestion that our collection may be P. aztecorum (P. quebecensis) caused us to doubt our original identification enough to go back to the descriptions and dust off the microscope.

Rolly and I sectioned a gill fragment, careful to remove the gill trauma so as not to confuse cheilo- with pleurocystidia. We made wet mount this time with 3% KOH and....after some looking, we found a band of hyaline pleurocystidia that were identical to the cheilocysitidia (bowling pin shaped, described variously in the mycological literature as lageniform, fusoid-ampullaceous and probably a number of other near synonymous terms). This alone is enough of a defining feature to convince us that the best guess for this collection is P. aff. aztecorum. As you may know, P. caerulipes lacks pleurocystidia. Other features that we looked at included the spore width. Our sample seems to be on the small side - we only looked at about 10 spores, but the width seemed to be typically between 6-6.5um (with a low outlier at 5um). This seems to align more closely with P. aztecorum var. bonetii (a lowland variant that probably should never have been separated as a variety of P. aztecorum, but I'm more of a "lumper" as messed up as that sounds). Also, we tested KOH on the cap context and couldn't really tell if it turned brownish red. Maybe somewhat. 

Anyway, all in all, Rolly and I are happy that you questioned our ID, seems like this is not P. caerulipes and that you were correct! So, next to Wolfdawgg's record from St. Peters, Cape Breton, this is the second record that we are aware of from the province. And...it is still fruiting! There are a couple of small fruit bodies from the collection near me and at least one in the patch near Rolly's place.

To answer your other questions, there is a small creek near the original collection site, but it is too far away to influence the habitat significantly (many meters down slope) and there are yellow birch nearby but not in the immediate vicinity.

Here are some additional photos. The last couple pics were taken today, two small mushrooms growing in the patch.

R_D (PS my apologies, these pics aren't so great)







Edited by rud_dudl (11/07/20 11:31 AM)


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OfflineSporespreder
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Re: Psilocybe Caerulipes 2020 [Re: rud_dudl]
    #27433378 - 08/18/21 04:47 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Ps caerulipes is really really small, difficult to sea and looks like a lot of other lbms... you have to almost lay on the ground to see them... here is a picture...ny



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InvisibleIcyurmt
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Re: Psilocybe Caerulipes 2020 [Re: Sporespreder]
    #27433422 - 08/18/21 05:22 PM (2 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sporespreder said:
Ps caerulipes is really really small, difficult to sea and looks like a lot of other lbms... you have to almost lay on the ground to see them... here is a picture...ny







Nice finds!  We’ve got a 2021 thread going for these; pop over there and re-post them up!


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