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Enlil
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: qman]
#26965915 - 10/02/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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It was only loaded with undisputed facts, though. It certainly wasn't loaded against Trump.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 3
#26965922 - 10/02/20 01:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I think people are trying a little to hard to bash Trump for anything.
He was asked during the debate if he was willing to condemn white supremacists and ask them to stand down. He said "sure" twice and also "I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace."
Then when asked to do it, he said "What do you want to call them?" When he was given the name Proud Boys, he said "Proud Boys, stand back and stand by".
Now "stand by" can be interpreted in a number of different ways, but "stand back" was clearly meant for them to stop the violence.
That's not how I interpreted "stand back and stand by". I think he meant don't do anything violent for the next couple days, so I don't like a fool, but be ready to crack some heads as soon as I need you.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 5
#26965930 - 10/02/20 01:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: He said "sure" twice and also "I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace."
Then when asked to do it, he said "What do you want to call them?" When he was given the name Proud Boys, he said "Proud Boys, stand back and stand by".
Full quotes:
"Sure, I'm willing to, but I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace,"
"Proud Boys -- stand back and stand by. But I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. Somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem."
You can continue to try and obscufate things, and claim that convoluted response amounts to a disavowal of white supremacy but I'll tell you what - the Proud Boys got the message loud and clear:
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christopera
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: qman] 1
#26965980 - 10/02/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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It’s still not a loaded question. It just isn’t, not by definition, or in practice. Feel free to say you think it’s unfair. If you think my proposed Biden response is irrelevant then okay, but it’s no less relevant than attempting to prove a loaded question.
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Edited by christopera (10/02/20 01:54 PM)
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Eminence
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: christopera]
#26965995 - 10/02/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I can't believe people are even talking about the fucking Proud Boys in the first place . They started as a joke club and then really just fought "protesters" that were already attacking people. They're not out there lighting shit on fire and doxxing and killing people. Well maybe they are doxxing people, I don't know, but that seems to be fair game at this point. They are no more organized than Antifa is though, but of course there are people that just keep crying that Antifa is "just an idea", you could say the same about the Proud Boys, if you know what they're about.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: christopera]
#26966007 - 10/02/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
christopera said: Oh I know what he said.
What you have said changes nothing unless he is too dumb to form a four word sentence; “I condemn white supremacy”.
Way more succinct and poiniente than “sure.” It’s that easy.
That's a no brainer, and he did that after the debate. But Trump wanted to know specifically who Biden and Wallace were referring to, and he was told the Proud Boys, which others have pointed out isn't a white supremacist group (even though I'm sure they have some white supremacists).
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26966013 - 10/02/20 02:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: He said "sure" twice and also "I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace."
Then when asked to do it, he said "What do you want to call them?" When he was given the name Proud Boys, he said "Proud Boys, stand back and stand by".
Full quotes:
"Sure, I'm willing to, but I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace,"
"Proud Boys -- stand back and stand by. But I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. Somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem."
Ok, he said he thinks more violence is coming from the left. I don't know how that changes anything from the previous discussion.
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: You can continue to try and obscufate things, and claim that convoluted response amounts to a disavowal of white supremacy but I'll tell you what - the Proud Boys got the message loud and clear:
Or they missed Trump's message entirely.
We can sit here and make whatever interpretations we like, I guess. But there's clearly more than one.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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qman
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Enlil]
#26966068 - 10/02/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: It was only loaded with undisputed facts, though. It certainly wasn't loaded against Trump.
What facts were loaded in the question? Why was the question asked in the first place and why wasn't Biden asked the same exact question?
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Enlil
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: qman] 1
#26966072 - 10/02/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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1. That white supremacist groups add to the violence, 2. That we've seen violence in Kenosha and Portland
The questions specifically referred to Trump's criticism of Biden not denouncing Antifa. Asking the same question of Biden would have been absurd.
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qman
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: christopera]
#26966073 - 10/02/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
christopera said: It’s still not a loaded question. It just isn’t, not by definition, or in practice. Feel free to say you think it’s unfair. If you think my proposed Biden response is irrelevant then okay, but it’s no less relevant than attempting to prove a loaded question.
The fact that Biden wasn't asked the same exact question shows without any doubt it was a loaded question specifically aimed at Trump. Just admit it already, it is what it is.
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Enlil
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: qman] 3
#26966076 - 10/02/20 03:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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What makes you think they both should get exactly the same questions? That is a silly notion. They aren't in the same position. They should each get questions tailored to their specific positions.
I think you might not understand what a loaded question is.
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qman
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Enlil] 1
#26966094 - 10/02/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: What makes you think they both should get exactly the same questions? That is a silly notion. They aren't in the same position. They should each get questions tailored to their specific positions.
I think you might not understand what a loaded question is.
So, two old white men both with a very long record of racist comments and serious accusations of racist acts shouldn't both be asked a loaded question about white supremacy? Just Trump should?
Edited by qman (10/02/20 03:19 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: qman] 1
#26966096 - 10/02/20 03:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Biden has repeatedly denounced white supremacists, though. Wallace gave Trump the opportunity to do the same. Biden didn't need another opportunity.
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bodhisatta
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: qman] 5
#26966114 - 10/02/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Enlil said: What makes you think they both should get exactly the same questions? That is a silly notion. They aren't in the same position. They should each get questions tailored to their specific positions.
I think you might not understand what a loaded question is.
So, two old white men both with a very long record of racist comments and serious accusations of racist acts shouldn't both be asked a loaded question about white supremacy? Just Trump should?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that other racists don't look up to joe biden but do look up to donal trump
It's not a tough question for most people why that is.
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26966136 - 10/02/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: He said "sure" twice and also "I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace."
Then when asked to do it, he said "What do you want to call them?" When he was given the name Proud Boys, he said "Proud Boys, stand back and stand by".
Full quotes:
"Sure, I'm willing to, but I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace,"
"Proud Boys -- stand back and stand by. But I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. Somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem."
You can continue to try and obscufate things, and claim that convoluted response amounts to a disavowal of white supremacy but I'll tell you what - the Proud Boys got the message loud and clear:
Excellent post Shivas
Trump used vague, ambiguous language on purpose to avoid the direct "I do Not approve of the actions of White Supremacist Groups such as the Proud Boys", especially with the "stand by" statement and mentioning how Antifa is the "real" problem. Trump is the King of open-ended language.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#26966160 - 10/02/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said: Excellent post Shivas
Trump used vague, ambiguous language on purpose to avoid the direct "I do Not approve of the actions of White Supremacist Groups such as the Proud Boys"...
So the Proud Boys is a white supremacist organization? I keep hearing the left say yes, and the right say no.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26966167 - 10/02/20 03:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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The Proud Boys is a white supremacist group, yes.
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26966189 - 10/02/20 04:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would argue so, at least on the borderline of it. An implicit White Supremist group if you will.
This article put it nicely: https://www.dailydot.com/debug/proud-boys-white-nationalists/
Quote:
However, the group’s website includes a list of core values as tenets: “Minimal Government, Maximum Freedom, Anti Political Correctness, Anti-Drug War, Closed Borders, Anti-Racial Guilt, Anti-Racism, Pro-Free Speech (1st Amendment), Pro-Gun Rights (2nd Amendment), Glorifying the Entrepreneur, Venerating the Housewife, Reinstating a Spirit of Western Chauvinism.”
The impossible notion of couching “anti-racism” together with “anti-racial guilt” is informative, in the implicit suggestion that Proud Boys do not hate non-whites as long as they (whites) aren’t guilted into taking ownership of their privilege or past sins of racialized violence. In other words, per their ideology, “others” can join as long as they fully adhere to white-centered, libertarian ideals of freedom, and inherent superiority.
On the Proud Boys website, they mention both "Anti-Racial Guilt and Anti-Racism". It seems contradictory does it not?
Their website: https://officialproudboys.com/proud-boys/whoaretheproudboys/
So Proud Boys are "Proud" to be White (and Male) and thus do not want the guilt associated with being White. I would say thats pretty damn close to White Supremacy.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Enlil] 1
#26966199 - 10/02/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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They need to tell that to their leader:
'I denounce racism': Black leader insists Proud Boys are not White supremacists
I realize that just because he says they're not a racist group doesn't make it true, but does you saying they are a racist group make it true?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 5
#26966206 - 10/02/20 04:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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White supremacist organizations don't announce that they are white supremacist anymore. Cmon...you know that. They use code words like "pride" in our "heritage" or "Western Values"...
This isn't rocket science, dude.
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