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psi
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Enlil] 3
#27073552 - 12/05/20 01:15 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: You keep saying the status quo as if it means anything. We have been in constant change for 50 years.
Would you say the Democrat and Republican regimes since Reagan have differed much regarding the trend of greater wealth concentrating into fewer hands? Other than in how thick they lay on the free market/rugged individualist rhetoric.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: The Ecstatic] 8
#27073559 - 12/05/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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A big, maybe the biggest, appeal to the ideology of socialism or communism is that we can explain most situations by the material conditions/interests at play.
We know poverty yields crime, we know poor nations have more corrupt governments/less happy people.
The problem is most Americans don’t see things through the lens of class (we can thank the various red scares for that). It’s like the old LBJ quote about how you can rob the white man blind so long as you make him believe he’s got someone (the black man) lower than him to look down on. 1% of this country has a vastly disproportionate share of wealth, resources, and power. Logic would dictate the remaining 99% could easily demand this be changed. So instead of class based politics we have identity politics, racial politics, the spotlight of wedge issues like abortion and lbgtq rights. It’s no accident. Americans are subjected daily to the largest and most successful propaganda machine ever built. Billions of dollars are spent to influence how we think, because at the end of the day, pointing out the simplest explanation for our problems (and the simplest solution) is unacceptable to those in power.
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koods
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27073564 - 12/05/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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You think poorer nations are more corrupt than 50 years ago? That’s absurd.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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psi
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: koods] 1
#27073569 - 12/05/20 01:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I thought he was suggesting corruption is more or less a function of how poor a given country currently is.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: koods] 2
#27073586 - 12/05/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: You think poorer nations are more corrupt than 50 years ago? That’s absurd.
It’s more complicated than “whoever has more money is more good” obviously, but I’m not sure what you’re saying here.
I think greed is an issue separate dialectical materialism, but I will say it’s exacerbated by our atomized, individualist culture.
The point I’m making about corrupt governments is that, as you dedicate resources to fighting corruption, corruption decreases (in the same way funding social programs in poor areas reduces crime).
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Ezuma
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 3
#27073611 - 12/05/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't think its clear that Americans wouldn't have supported Sanders if he was put forward in the end (though I also wouldn't be surprised if he performed worse than Biden, fear of socialism is strong) but I think it is clear that the democrats were not going to get behind him, which they absolutely had to do if he was going to get anywhere. The party in general would likely have preferred to lose the election than to have to put forth an actual progressive candidate, as that would basically run against their own interests.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Ezuma]
#27073635 - 12/05/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Agreed.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Ezuma] 1
#27073636 - 12/05/20 02:09 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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They would’ve let trump do the coup if Bernie won the election lol
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qman
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Ezuma] 1
#27073637 - 12/05/20 02:09 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ezuma said: I don't think its clear that Americans wouldn't have supported Sanders if he was put forward in the end (though I also wouldn't be surprised if he performed worse than Biden, fear of socialism is strong) but I think it is clear that the democrats were not going to get behind him, which they absolutely had to do if he was going to get anywhere. The party in general would likely have preferred to lose the election than to have to put forth an actual progressive candidate, as that would basically run against their own interests.
It's really a battle of semantics. The vast majority of US citizens want universal health care, yet they hate "socialism". They also want more organized labor, better wages, affordable education and many other "socialist" programs. Yet, they're scared of "socialism". 
So the best method is to label Bernie a "socialist" even though the vast majority of voters agree with his politics. How did the Democratic Party and MSM pull it off once again?
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Ezuma
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: psi] 3
#27073644 - 12/05/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
psi said:
Quote:
Enlil said: You keep saying the status quo as if it means anything. We have been in constant change for 50 years.
Would you say the Democrat and Republican regimes since Reagan have differed much regarding the trend of greater wealth concentrating into fewer hands? Other than in how thick they lay on the free market/rugged individualist rhetoric.
we've been in constant change yes, but the overall trend is an expanding wealth-gap and economic power being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, corporate and individual, while the remaining value and power of labor is undermined, and people drift further from class consciousness.
There are some laudable positive trends mixed in, like increasing acceptance of minority rights, moving away from the traditional gender binary and all that, but these cultural shifts aren't enough to secure a decent future. Great, you are more likely to be accepted for your sexuality and or race -in most cities, forget the countryside- but it would be nice if there was a decent job and a chance at home ownership for you as well.
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Ezuma
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: qman]
#27073649 - 12/05/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: They would’ve let trump do the coup if Bernie won the election lol
Yeah, I don't doubt it lol
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Ezuma said: I don't think its clear that Americans wouldn't have supported Sanders if he was put forward in the end (though I also wouldn't be surprised if he performed worse than Biden, fear of socialism is strong) but I think it is clear that the democrats were not going to get behind him, which they absolutely had to do if he was going to get anywhere. The party in general would likely have preferred to lose the election than to have to put forth an actual progressive candidate, as that would basically run against their own interests.
It's really a battle of semantics. The vast majority of US citizens want universal health care, yet they hate "socialism". They also want more organized labor, better wages, affordable education and many other "socialist" programs. Yet, they're scared of "socialism". 
So the best method is to label Bernie a "socialist" even though the vast majority of voters agree with his politics. How did the Democratic Party and MSM pull it off once again?
propaganda is more powerful than truth, and decades of it are hard to brush off. Constantly one encounters people who don't even know the broad strokes of the definition of socialism, who would gladly die to stop its apparent spread, because in their minds its been reduced to a very simple dichotomy of 'socialism' vs 'freedom'.
Not to say that there aren't more intelligent arguments against it, but you seldom hear them.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Ezuma]
#27073675 - 12/05/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Ezuma said: There are some laudable positive trends mixed in, like increasing acceptance of minority rights, moving away from the traditional gender binary and all that, but these cultural shifts aren't enough to secure a decent future. Great, you are more likely to be accepted for your sexuality and or race -in most cities, forget the countryside- but it would be nice if there was a decent job and a chance at home ownership for you as well.
Yup. Basically what I was saying in shivas' post.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Ezuma
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#27073679 - 12/05/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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the thing is I would have voted Biden over Trump, and I don't think we have to chose between economic and social progress. I think the two can go together, but people are being played against one another. Trans and black rights and all that is in no way in conflict with workers rights, but as long as people believe they are, then we won't really get either imo
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Ezuma]
#27073684 - 12/05/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Biden will at least give us those non-economic social benefits, and that's good.
Trump might(?) help keep military conflicts down, and that's good.
I think they're both awful.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Ezuma
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#27073689 - 12/05/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Biden will at least give us those non-economic social benefits, and that's good.
Trump might(?) help keep military conflicts down, and that's good.
I think they're both awful.
I agree they're both awful
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Ezuma] 1
#27073728 - 12/05/20 03:15 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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If for no other reason: people should vote Democrat so their glaring hypocrisy is highlighted. Don’t give them an excuse by continuing to let the GOP hold power.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: psi] 2
#27073779 - 12/05/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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psi said: I mean I do get that there is overlap between right wing and left wing populism. In Canadian history I believe there were traditionally NDP areas that elected Reform Party candidates. People who don't like the status quo can be willing to give the left or the right a shot at changing it.
There is overlap on economic issues, but not on social issues. Right populist voters, unlike left populist voters, are doubly alienated. They reject the prevailing economic and social orders. An important consequence is that right populists, even though they focus on attacking social progressivism, can attack free market capitalism without alienating their base. By contrast, left populists can only attack free market capitalism; if they attack social progressivism, they will lose supporters who react negatively to socially conservative rhetoric.
The usual result is that those on the left (many of whom credit social progressivism with improved conditions and expanded opportunities for their demographic groups) who are unwilling to compromise their social values for promised economic benefit are alienated; and those on the right whose primary subjective political grievances are social progressivism, despite a willingness to also attack free market capitalism, are empowered.
The Reform Party is a good example. Did those former-NDP voters who voted Reform Party get that democratic reform they wanted? Or did they get privatization, tax cuts, and "family values"?
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#27073795 - 12/05/20 04:00 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Ezuma said: There are some laudable positive trends mixed in, like increasing acceptance of minority rights, moving away from the traditional gender binary and all that, but these cultural shifts aren't enough to secure a decent future. Great, you are more likely to be accepted for your sexuality and or race -in most cities, forget the countryside- but it would be nice if there was a decent job and a chance at home ownership for you as well.
Yup. Basically what I was saying in shivas' post.
I don't dispute that social progress and cultural shifts aren't enough to secure a decent future.
But acknowledging that social progress alone is not sufficient, is not the same thing as saying we would benefit from ignoring contentious social issues in order to focus solely on the economic issues.
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psi
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#27073875 - 12/05/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
psi said: I mean I do get that there is overlap between right wing and left wing populism. In Canadian history I believe there were traditionally NDP areas that elected Reform Party candidates. People who don't like the status quo can be willing to give the left or the right a shot at changing it.
There is overlap on economic issues, but not on social issues. Right populist voters, unlike left populist voters, are doubly alienated. They reject the prevailing economic and social orders. An important consequence is that right populists, even though they focus on attacking social progressivism, can attack free market capitalism without alienating their base. By contrast, left populists can only attack free market capitalism; if they attack social progressivism, they will lose supporters who react negatively to socially conservative rhetoric.
The usual result is that those on the left (many of whom credit social progressivism with improved conditions and expanded opportunities for their demographic groups) who are unwilling to compromise their social values for promised economic benefit are alienated; and those on the right whose primary subjective political grievances are social progressivism, despite a willingness to also attack free market capitalism, are empowered.
The Reform Party is a good example. Did those former-NDP voters who voted Reform Party get that democratic reform they wanted? Or did they get privatization, tax cuts, and "family values"?
Good analysis, I agree with your take.
I once attended a talk by Preston Manning where he was arguing that it had not been his intent for the Reform party to be socially conservative necessarily, only that positions be decided democratically within the party. And that the party membership tended to be socially conservative. He also suggested that he had been unfairly painted as more socially conservative than he really was.
All that is his version of the truth and I take it with a big grain of salt. But it was cool to see him talk in person and meet him briefly at the end.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: qman] 2
#27073905 - 12/05/20 05:34 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Ezuma said: I don't think its clear that Americans wouldn't have supported Sanders if he was put forward in the end (though I also wouldn't be surprised if he performed worse than Biden, fear of socialism is strong) but I think it is clear that the democrats were not going to get behind him, which they absolutely had to do if he was going to get anywhere. The party in general would likely have preferred to lose the election than to have to put forth an actual progressive candidate, as that would basically run against their own interests.
It's really a battle of semantics. The vast majority of US citizens want universal health care, yet they hate "socialism". They also want more organized labor, better wages, affordable education and many other "socialist" programs. Yet, they're scared of "socialism". 
So the best method is to label Bernie a "socialist" even though the vast majority of voters agree with his politics. How did the Democratic Party and MSM pull it off once again?
It is very much about semantics. I always thought Bernie and his party would do better calling themselves Social Democrats (as in Western Europe) rather than Democratic Socialists. It's just that word 'socialism' that scares people, even though, to varying degrees, the public supported Bernie's limited socialist platform. This would have been an ideal time for a Sanders presidency as the pandemic has us dishing out money left and right for nonmilitary matters. Bernie would have gotten more of that money to regular people and less to corporations.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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