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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: qman]
    #26983197 - 10/13/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I think when anyone labels Donald Trump a former New York City real estate tycoon with a popular TV show as a 'white supremacist', you not only dilute the word, but you also lose most of the people in the political center. I'm not saying Trump hasn't done racist acts in the past, but so have most people as well.

My point is that you're not going to win many arguments if you just try to redefine terms for your own benefit. Most people do NOT recognize Trump as any type of 'white supremacist. If one were to apply that label to Trump, then the same would apply to Biden and also tens of millions of regular US citizens.




Trump has lent support to White Supremacists, with some qualifications. There is absolutely no doubt that they (to whatever degree wrongly or rightly) are emboldened by him and in many cases feel they are carrying out his somewhat unspoken policies.

Biden has made some gaffes on race but his true offenses were many years ago, so I don't think he can be equated with Trump on the current racial environment in this country.

Your comments about how the center is reacting to this dialogue would probably be accurate in any other election, but not this one. Although Trump's downfall clearly originated in the Covid crisis beginning in March, it accelerated throughout the civil unrest. The public is more against white supremacy and Trump right now, than they are against BLM and ANTIFA. The polling numbers we are seeing every week would be impossible if this wasn't the case. In any previous year the street violence would have benefitted the GOP and hurt the Dems. Not now. The center has turned against Trump and blame him for damn near everything.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: qman] * 1
    #26983207 - 10/13/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Trump's trolling and bigoted rhetoric isn't fascism. He's purposely trying to antagonize people to appeal to his base. The key point here is that it's just empty talk that nobody takes seriously.




  It absolutely blows my fucking mind that you seem to think you can support Trump doing that , dismiss it as meaningless and then expect people to treat you respectfully and not dismiss everything you say as mindless bullshit . You really think that doesn’t reflect on your own credibility ?


--------------------


Edited by Psilynut2 (10/13/20 11:25 AM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26983245 - 10/13/20 11:50 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Trump is a baby fascist. Everything on your list above, trump has proposed doing.

He proposed banning tiktok and regulating other social media platforms.

When talking about guns and people who are accused of violent crime, trump said:
"I like to take the guns early, go through due process later"

He sent federal agents to infringe on state issues and arrest people exercising their 1st ammendment rights without reading their rights.

He also recently said he would lock up hillary after the election. Obviously it's
a ploy to appeal to mindless voters, but the rhetoric was stated.

So regardless of whether or not he actually does these things, he's still spewing
the rhetoric and his base eats it up. He is turning half the country towards acceptance
of fascist rhetoric regardless of whether or not he does it.




Talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: qman]
    #26983250 - 10/13/20 11:51 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Trump is NOT a fascist, come on now, you're destroying another term. Trump's trolling and bigoted rhetoric isn't fascism. He's purposely trying to antagonize people to appeal to his base. The key point here is that it's just empty talk that nobody takes seriously.




From where I'm sitting, people actually are taking it seriously. Calling his rhetoric "trolling" is a misuse of the term "trolling," in my opinion. Trolling is where you say something deliberately controversial or offensive with the intent of getting an angry reaction from someone else. Trump's intent is not to get an angry reaction from anyone (though his words have the side effect of angering a lot of people). His intent is to pander to his racist, ultra-nationalist, white supremacist, xenophobic, homophobic, islamophobic audience, securing his power (and, as a fascist, securing power for all the white Christians that make up the majority of his audience). Even his slogan of "Make America Great Again," when taken in full historical context, is a bit of the ol' wink-wink-nudge-nudge about securing white, Christian power.

Additionally, it's not just "empty talk." There are many examples of his rhetoric becoming real world events. His xenophobia and demonization of Mexican immigrants has led to an unnecessary, expensive border wall, unjust incarceration of immigrants in ICE camps, and even forced sterilization of Mexican women. These are atrocities, but they are a lot easier to justify if you think Mexican immigrants are a bunch of rapist drug dealers who are just here to steal our jobs (as Trump has said many times). Another example was his travel ban on incoming travel from predominantly Muslim countries. This situation was a great injustice because it gave fewer options to refugees (most of which are innocent civilians). However, unjust as it was, it's a lot easier to justify if you think Muslims are radical terrorists (as Trump repeatedly points out in almost every speech he gives).

This type of rhetoric, when delivered by a politician and endorsed by a largely white, Christian fanbase, leads to human rights violations. It's not "trolling."

Quote:

qman said:
Did Trump eliminate free speech, shut down the media or internet?  NO.




No, but if a fascist doesn't need to eliminate free speech to secure power, then he won't do it. If anything, the Internet and media have helped Trump secure power. The cameras are constantly on him. Almost every major news network will have multiple stories about him every single day. This is not normal. The large bodies of information and alternative media sources on the Internet have made his rhetoric spread like wildfire. Trump doesn't need to suppress free speech to secure power.

If you look into the history of fascism, you'll see that fascists don't really ever shut down media sources: they hijack them, and slander journalists who criticize them. Radio was the next big thing back in the early 1930's, but the Nazis didn't "shut down" the radio to secure their power. Quite contrary, they made great use of radio to spread their propaganda. It was an incredibly effective channel for spreading Nazi ideology.

Look at the way Trump treats news media. Anything that criticizes him is "fake news" to him and his fans. He hardly ever refers to major news networks like CNN (just want to be clear that I'm not endorsing CNN), the Washington Post, or the New York Times without referring to them as "failing," and he does this not because they are failing (they're actually all far from failing), but because they often publish material critical of Trump. To his fans, it has the effect of pushing them towards more alternative media sources. For most of his followers, this just means Fox News, which is still pretty bad, but for a lot of his followers, they'll get pushed even further to the right until they're reading stuff like Breitbart or the Daily Stormer.

Modern day fascists have no interest in suppressing free speech or shutting down the media. These tools are far too useful for spreading fascist ideology for them to be shut down by fascists. IMO, labeling major media outlets "Fake News" specifically because they are critical of Trump is fascist rhetoric.


Quote:

qman said:
Did Trump eliminate due process and charge his political opponents with baseless crimes? NO.




Not yet, but he and his fans would love for this to happen. Even to this day, he still refers to Hillary Clinton as "Crooked Hillary," and when he does, his fans will all chant "Lock Her Up!" Trump hasn't acted on his threat of jailing political opponents without due process, but he definitely seems to think that it would be a great idea, and his fans all seem to agree. IMO, calling for the jailing of Hillary Clinton (a political opponent) without due process is another example of Trump using fascist rhetoric.

Quote:

qman said:
Did his political opponents ever accuse him of fascism acts? NO.




The last time I checked, being labeled a fascist by your political opponents isn't a criteria for being a fascist.

Quote:

qman said:
Did his political opponents pass all the important legislation proposed by Trump?  YES. 




Honestly don't know what you're talking about here without specific examples.


Quote:

qman said:
Again, you're not going to convince people if you continue to exaggerate and misuse these very important terms. You're in a very small minority with your current perspective on these issues. You're more concerned about what could happen, as opposed to what has actually happened. That's a very dangerous slippy slope you're going down and it doesn't serve much purpose in my opinion.



You're absolutely right: I am much more concerned about where this is headed than how it actually is now. Right now, things are pretty bad, but I think they're going to get a lot worse (especially for the most marginalized groups of people) if we don't put a stop to it now.

Trump uses a lot of fascist rhetoric. Demonizing Mexican immigrants is fascist rhetoric. Demonizing Muslims is fascist rhetoric. Mocking disabled people is fascist rhetoric. Leveraging baseless accusations against media sources that criticize Trump's administration is fascist rhetoric. Claiming that his political opponents ought to be jailed without due process is fascist rhetoric. How much more fascist rhetoric do we need to see from Trump before we can be reasonably concerned about the uprising of a fascist regime? I'm definitely not saying that we're there right now: the Trump administration is not a full-blown fascist regime (yet), but the writing is on the wall. There are too many red flags for us to dismiss it at this point. How many more warning signs do we need before moderates like yourself will allow me to voice my concerns?

Would it appease you if I said that this administration is tending towards fascism? If so, is that really any different functionally from me saying that Trump is a fascist and that we ought to put a stop to this before it gets worse?


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


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Offlineqman
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26983259 - 10/13/20 12:00 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

qman said:
I think when anyone labels Donald Trump a former New York City real estate tycoon with a popular TV show as a 'white supremacist', you not only dilute the word, but you also lose most of the people in the political center. I'm not saying Trump hasn't done racist acts in the past, but so have most people as well.

My point is that you're not going to win many arguments if you just try to redefine terms for your own benefit. Most people do NOT recognize Trump as any type of 'white supremacist. If one were to apply that label to Trump, then the same would apply to Biden and also tens of millions of regular US citizens.




Trump has lent support to White Supremacists, with some qualifications. There is absolutely no doubt that they (to whatever degree wrongly or rightly) are emboldened by him and in many cases feel they are carrying out his somewhat unspoken policies.

Biden has made some gaffes on race but his true offenses were many years ago, so I don't think he can be equated with Trump on the current racial environment in this country.

Your comments about how the center is reacting to this dialogue would probably be accurate in any other election, but not this one. Although Trump's downfall clearly originated in the Covid crisis beginning in March, it accelerated throughout the civil unrest. The public is more against white supremacy and Trump right now, than they are against BLM and ANTIFA. The polling numbers we are seeing every week would be impossible if this wasn't the case. In any previous year the street violence would have benefitted the GOP and hurt the Dems. Not now. The center has turned against Trump and blame him for damn near everything.




The center is against Trump today because he fucked up with the virus, the economy and a thousands other factors. He's NOT losing because they truly believe he's a white supremacist.

I agree that BLM is more popular because of the obvious public perception of law enforcement today. Again, that has nothing to do with Trump being a white supremacist.

For the most part, the narrative is about BLM/Antifa being favorable or not. The subject of white supremacy groups usually doesn't enter the equation because it's a non-factor in the real world today.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #26983269 - 10/13/20 12:06 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

Trump's trolling and bigoted rhetoric isn't fascism. He's purposely trying to antagonize people to appeal to his base. The key point here is that it's just empty talk that nobody takes seriously.




  It absolutely blows my fucking mind that you seem to think you can support Trump doing that , dismiss it as meaningless and then expect people to treat you respectfully and not dismiss everything you say as mindless bullshit . You really think that doesn’t reflect on your own credibility ?




Please don't strawman my position. I don't support Trump trolling with antagonistic rhetoric, I'm just suggesting he's not a white supremacist.

In my opinion, his supporters, his political opponents and his critics know it's trolling and nothing more. Do some people take it more seriously?  Yes, but after four years, they're in a very small minority.


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: qman]
    #26983328 - 10/13/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Trump is NOT a fascist, come on now, you're destroying another term. Trump's trolling and bigoted rhetoric isn't fascism. He's purposely trying to antagonize people to appeal to his base. The key point here is that it's just empty talk that nobody takes seriously.

Did Trump eliminate free speech, shut down the media or internet?  NO.

Did Trump eliminate due process and charge his political opponents with baseless crimes? NO.

Did his political opponents ever accuse him of fascism acts? NO.

Did his political opponents pass all the important legislation proposed by Trump?  YES. 

I'm sorry, but being highly critical of illegal immigration policies isn't fascism. Either is reducing travel from certain areas of the world. Either is making fun of disabled people. Either is pissing on poor people which has been happening for over 50 years in this nation.

If Trump did authoritarian acts and suspended the Constitution you would a case, but that didn't happen. If he illegally silenced and imprisoned his political opponents without due process, you would have a case. If Trump used government force to implement unconstitutional laws, you would have a case.

Again, you're not going to convince people if you continue to exaggerate and misuse these very important terms. You're in a very small minority with your current perspective on these issues. You're more concerned about what could happen, as opposed to what has actually happened. That's a very dangerous slippy slope you're going down and it doesn't serve much purpose in my opinion.




He did deligitimzie the free press which undermines our democratic foundations as a nation, he has continuously said the entire democratic process is rigged and there's rampant mail in voting fraud, He just threatened his Attorney General saying if he didn't indict Obama and Biden (his direct political opponent we are voting on in about 20 days. He's taken assistance in many forms from foreign powers and called it perfect. He had officers break through a protest line with rubber bullets and tear gas to take a picture with a bible. He praises and defends Kim Jong Un and Putin, liking their total control over their people. There's is so many authoritarian acts it's hard to even list them all


--------------------
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ShLong
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Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Seriously_trippin] * 1
    #26983549 - 10/13/20 03:18 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not buying what the mainstream media sold you.

For example, instead of saying:

"He praises and defends Kim Jong Un and Putin, liking their total control over their people"

You could have said:

"He understand how to work with traditional enemies who have authoritarian Governments."

Unless you can actually show he is "liking their total control over their people", which I'm pretty sure is make believe.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26983876 - 10/13/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Except trump said the Philippines president, duterte, did an excellent job reigning in their drug problem.

Just so everyone knows, duterte condoned and commissioned the extra judicial killing
of every SUSPECTED drug dealer and user in his nation. Trump thi ks that's a good method.

Anyone who claims trump doesnt have a propensity for authoritarianism is a liar.


--------------------


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26983939 - 10/13/20 07:25 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not buying what the mainstream media sold you.

For example, instead of saying:

"He praises and defends Kim Jong Un and Putin, liking their total control over their people"

You could have said:

"He understand how to work with traditional enemies who have authoritarian Governments."

Unless you can actually show he is "liking their total control over their people", which I'm pretty sure is make believe.  :shrug:




Amazing spin

Trump literally said he wants people to stand at attention the way kim Jong Ill gets his people to stand at attention

Quote:

"He understand how to work with traditional enemies who have authoritarian Governments."



Wtf does this even mean?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (10/13/20 07:26 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26983944 - 10/13/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Except trump said the Philippines president, duterte, did an excellent job reigning in their drug problem.

Just so everyone knows, duterte condoned and commissioned the extra judicial killing
of every SUSPECTED drug dealer and user in his nation. Trump thi ks that's a good method.

Anyone who claims trump doesnt have a propensity for authoritarianism is a liar.




Of course Falcon knows this. That’s why he’s warming up to him. Do you think it’s a coinkydink that Falcon has become more pro trump as trump has become more authoritarian?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #26984136 - 10/13/20 09:25 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

No, that's more make believe.  Where did Trump say he "thinks that a good method"?

He said he was doing a great job with the drug problem, confirming my point that he understands how to work with our enemies.

We've know threats against other countries don't work, yet you seem to prefer that method?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26984171 - 10/13/20 09:43 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

What are you talking about? What threats?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: koods]
    #26984224 - 10/13/20 10:12 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

More make believe? I said he claimed it was a great job.

Your own posts said trump said it was a great job. How is that not concerning to you?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #26984256 - 10/13/20 10:44 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
More make believe?



Do you not see the difference between telling someone they're doing a great job on the drug problem and thinking extrajudicial killing is a good method?

Based on past discussions (and the current one), you probably don't.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: koods] * 1
    #26984260 - 10/13/20 10:47 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
What are you talking about? What threats?



Threats other presidents have made against authoritarian Governments, instead of understanding how to deal with them.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26984267 - 10/13/20 10:52 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Your logic is seriously mind blowing.

These are trumps exact words
"I just wanted to congratulate you because I am hearing of the unbelievable job on the drug problem, many countries have the problem, we have a problem, but what a great job you are doing and I just wanted to call and tell you that."

Sounds like an endorsement of methodology to me.


--------------------


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #26984272 - 10/13/20 10:57 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

So do you think Trump is going to push this method in the US then?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #26984281 - 10/13/20 11:05 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Falcon moving the goalposts again...

nate: points out that Trump endorsed extrajudicial killings in the Philippines.

Falcon: "ThAt'S nOt An EnDoRsEmEnT oF mEtHoDoLoGy"

nate: provides a direct quote from Trump, which demonstrates beyond doubt that he endorsed the way that the president of the Philippines dealt with their drug crime problem (extrajudicial killings).

Falcon: "So do you think Trump is going to push this method in the US then?"

The discussion wasn't about whether or not Trump is going to push extrajudicial killings in the US (though, he already has verbally advocated for it multiple times, even in his most recent rally in Florida). The discussion is about whether or not Trump endorsed extrajudicial killings. Falcon realized that Trump actually did endorse extrajudicial killings, so now he's moving the goalposts to "Well, at least he didn't push for this method in the US," which is a much easier position to defend.

This is why I don't respond directly to Falcon anymore.


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


Edited by Nonagon Infinity (10/13/20 11:06 PM)


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Trump Again Disavows White Supremacists while Biden Wont Disavow Antifa [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26984282 - 10/13/20 11:05 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Did I say that?

If you were actually following the conversation you would have seen me post this:
Quote:

So regardless of whether or not he actually does these things, he's still spewing
the rhetoric and his base eats it up. He is turning half the country towards acceptance
of fascist rhetoric regardless of whether or not he does it.




But as shiva pointed out, his handling of michael reinhol (sp?) goes to show that
sometimes he actually DOES partake in fascism/authoritarianism and not just spew its rhetoric.


--------------------


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