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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
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Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Religion and Death [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26957500 - 09/27/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Suicide & Abortion can both potentially be thought of as forms of euthanasia.  I haven’t really thought through this thought yet - but there might be something to it.  :shrug:


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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (09/27/20 02:11 PM)


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InvisibleShenmue
Dark Lord of the Sith 
Registered: 12/21/18
Posts: 2,514
Re: Religion and Death [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26957517 - 09/27/20 02:03 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Some of both I guess, but not sure faulty is right. It's fear and our imagination that makes things both unrealistically bad or good.





Agree.  I used the word skill to deviate away from pro-life bias.  I'm told suicide wasn't always viewed with such negativity throughout history.




Can you imagine how painful life must have been a few hundred year's ago? If you was injured back then you was basically fucked. If you had a hernated disk or a pinched nerve there was no way to fix it so you probably would have been in a lot of pain even in your 30's.

I bet the reason the Bible says suicides go to hell is probably because suicide was common back then. They was probably trying to prevent people from killing themselves.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc: Flag
Re: Religion and Death [Re: Shenmue]
    #26957548 - 09/27/20 02:32 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Idk, man.  Isn't pain all in the mind?  Perhaps they were geared to handle it better.


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InvisibleShenmue
Dark Lord of the Sith 
Registered: 12/21/18
Posts: 2,514
Re: Religion and Death [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26957574 - 09/27/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Idk, man.  Isn't pain all in the mind?  Perhaps they were geared to handle it better.




No they felt pain just like we do. If you seen someone being burned alive would you to tell them to suck it up, that pain is all in the mind lmao? You must be young and haven't experienced real pain yet :lol: ..


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
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Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Religion and Death [Re: Shenmue]
    #26957619 - 09/27/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Some cry out in pain when being burned alive,
Some don’t.



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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Religion and Death [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26962623 - 09/30/20 06:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Religion is a cultural construct coinciding with the onset of civilization, and is not innate. For example, hunter-gatherers  are almost universally irreligious. And I have no idea what you're getting at with "death impulse." It seems to me that virtually all living things seek to remain alive at all costs, with a few complex exceptions. "Survival impulse" would make a lot more sense.

and

I said, "with a few complex exceptions." I'm sure suicide has existed as long as we have, but I'm also sure nobody really knows. Religion is not a skill, it is cultural conditioning. But who cares? My arguments make your first post meaningless. You have to look at religion as an effect, not a cause.




Yes I agree "Religion is a cultural construct ".
It would seem not only the religious resist this truth, but also others; because they dimly perceive that if they allow this, next in line will be what they are really in love with, namely the notion of 'self' which may also be considered a cultural or social construct.

However I do not agree that: "hunter-gatherers  are almost universally irreligious".
Seems almost all "Primitive/tribal" cultures all have some mixture of myths, taboos, superstitions, communal dances, rituals, burial customs, ancestor worship, and religions, that may or not be called 'religion' by modern 'civilized'  anthropologists, but serve much the same function.

I agree that making up psychological notions like the 'birth trauma' and 'oedipus complex" and "The Death impulse" every time it suits a psychologists or speculators agenda is silly, unless there is some real evidence that necessitates it. One might just as well have a: "fuck your sister complex" as a tribe called the 'hillbillies' are known to do it, (apparently as part of their inbreeding program).


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Registered: 12/06/13
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Re: Religion and Death [Re: laughingdog]
    #26962747 - 09/30/20 07:55 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Well, what I meant about hgs is that, as I said, almost universally, they do not have deities nor do they worship. If whatever is left after that one wants to call religion, okay. But imo what they have is not even analogous to modern religion.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Religion and Death [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26962823 - 09/30/20 08:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Without defining religion, any debate is sure to be prone to misunderstandings.

The bible is taken to demarcate a switch from human sacrifice to animal sacrifice, so clearly some of the roots of religion go back to practices it seems you want not to include.
Now other than voodo and Mayan native practices animal sacrifice is pretty much out of favor.

A book such as "Magic Witchcraft and Religion: A Reader in the Anthropology of Religion 9th Edition by Pamela Moro (Author), James Myers (Author)" seems to take a rather inclusive view.

I would say both some American Indian tribes, & Australian aborigines, for example had religious practices.

Possibly also of interest

"Invoking the Spirits: Fieldwork on the Material and Spiritual Life of the Hunter-Gatherers Mlabri in Northern Thailand (JUTLAND ARCH SOCIETY) Illustrated Edition
by Jesper Trier  (Author)"

and

"Human-Animal Relationships in San and Hunter-Gatherer Cosmology, Volume I: Therianthropes and Transformation Kindle Edition
by Mathias Guenther (Author)  Format: Kindle Edition"


Edited by laughingdog (09/30/20 08:50 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Religion and Death [Re: laughingdog]
    #26963522 - 10/01/20 09:33 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The problem here is that everything hinges on the word "religion," and what one means by it. I think we're talking at cross-purposes.

My principal point is that, prior to stratified society, virtually all societies had no sorts of deities and did not engage in worship. By some people's definition, this would preclude "religion." Now, virtually all of them did believe in spirits, and all sorts of superstitions, but once again we run up against a semantic dilemma.

It would not really be appropriate or possible to start to delve really deeply into all this here, but I can refer anyone interested in my point of view to Morris Berman's Wandering God: A Study in Nomadic Spirituality. That book sums it up nicely.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Religion and Death [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26963998 - 10/01/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

.    I guess you differentiate between fear of offending Gods/spirits/ancestors and worshipping them. But why worship them if not out of fear? Certainly most Christians were not living lives full of ecstasy , as they had no methodology to create it, like the whirling dervish of Sufism. And Christians fear hell. Their so called worship sure looks fear based to an outsider. All the good Christian Church singing music had its roots in Africa.

.    When pygmies (among other tribes) spend hours and hours engaging in communal dancing, which alters their consciousness and promotes a state of mind, of mutual appreciation & loving kinship, (a goal of religion), I don't know what you propose to call it.

.    The American Indians had the Great spirit, & the Sundance, which white folks outlawed, as it was more powerful than the insipid rituals and songs of the white Christians.

.    I suppose Rain dances occur after people are settled, but rituals to promote hunting success probably occur far earlier in human history. Perhaps this contains some of the elements you wish to call worshipping.

.    I think the line you are drawing, is one a believer would draw; and not a line that needs to been drawn when scientists recognize how ancient, belief in imaginary entities is.

.  It seems worth noting that Christianity, that is supposed to be the finest example of monotheism, is often not really monotheistic in practice. When we consider "the father, the son, & 'the holy ghost' ", and the hundreds of Saints, and Patron Saints, that are prayed to. There are also cults, or places where the Virgin Mary is venerated. All taken together, this is very similar to having a collection of spirits.
.    Drinking the blood of Christ and eating his flesh,  also clearly has pagan roots. So once again to take Christianity as some sort of pure, charitable, & disembodied, example of what religion is, is to embrace a false definition, and not a good model for making comparisons IMO.
.  Religion seems better defined by a belief in imaginary entities, and procedures that reduce group tensions and promote group harmony, like trance dancing. IMO
.    As has been said before the whiteman's religions are just watered down versions of practices that used to work much more effectively. Long ago scary masks were also used, as well as drumming, dancing, chanting, fires, outdoor darkness, and costumes - a much more psychologically and metabolically involving series of events, than sitting indoors in pews looking at a few candles in the distance and being lectured at and told not to sin.
.    Looked at this way, perhaps the farther back we go, the more religious it gets.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Religion and Death [Re: laughingdog]
    #26964262 - 10/01/20 04:44 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

.  Religion seems better defined by a belief in imaginary entities, and procedures that reduce group tensions and promote group harmony, like trance dancing. IMO





If you wish to define it this way, that's fine. But as the Berman book points out, the whole mental understanding of spirituality underwent a massive transformation as civilizations formed. It went from a "horizontal" configuration commensurate with egalitarianism, to a "vertical" configuration positing the dimension from beggars to parishioners to priests to bishops to God or gods. The horizontal configuration of consciousness was very different than that which we have today. Alien even. My argument is that putting these two totally different dimensions of spirituality under the blanket term "religion," is I think too simplistic.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Religion and Death [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26966819 - 10/03/20 12:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know at what point in the process of religion it became becoming more hierarchical, ending up with a pope, the selling of indulgences, and then Martin Luther's rebellion. Certainly it transitions as you point out, into something that is frequently part of the government control system.
(Amusingly in atheistic North Korea, it is the head of state, who must be worshiped.
However this is not amusing for the inhabitants of N.K.)

At some point quite early on there must have been shamanism and medicine men and psychedelic drug use, particularly in Mexico, and the 3 Americas, and Africa *.

I also do not know exactly how the lines are drawn between tribes that are somewhat sedentary, but do little agriculture, and more nomadic hunter gatherers.

*
"The psychoactivity of the root barks of the iboga tree (Tabernanthe iboga), from which ibogaine is extracted, was first discovered by the Pygmy tribes of Central Africa, who passed the knowledge to the Bwiti tribe of Gabon."

also

Peyote, Ololiqui, San Pedro Cactus, Slavia Divinorum, Yopo (Anadenanthera peregrine), Ayhuasca,  Cannabis, and Fly Agaric, etc.


Edited by laughingdog (10/03/20 01:08 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,704
Re: Religion and Death [Re: laughingdog]
    #26967042 - 10/03/20 06:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

look to the God-Pharos of Egypt.
church and state are one thing in that pyramid culture.


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